ex NAR people stories?

[catherine777]

Anyone has read such site where someone has gathered stories of belivers who has been in NAR
Berean Examiner ?

 

[jiminpa]

Do you mean gossips?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Anyone has read such site where someone has gathered stories of belivers who has been in NAR
Berean Examiner ?

Not me, most of my experiences of continuationism in a congregational setting is very proto of what we have today. (still very continuationist) I would also refer to the last part of James 3 when looking at complaints towards any tradition.

 

[catherine777]

Do you mean gossips?

Nope really stories of those who has been in new apostolic reformation movement and left from there...pls check this berean examiner link it seems to scary.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nope really stories of those who has been in new apostolic reformation movement and left from there...pls check this berean examiner link it seems to scary.

Humans are scary in general, new movements who feel the crunch of a growth quota and the need to prove themselves will display this more so. As a movement matures, this element smooths out. I recall how Apostle Paul was like that at the beginning with one disciple who later was indispensible to his ministry.

 

[jiminpa]

Nope really stories of those who has been in new apostolic reformation movement and left from there...pls check this berean examiner link it seems to scary.

My experience with organizations that call themselves "Berean" is that they are using it in an Orwellian sense, and the little that I've seen of that site is no different. I read one of the articles and quite frankly the guy has his microscope out looking for demons in the movement, and he reads those books that call the Holy Spirit "strange fire." I don't know if he is a macarthur wolf or just from one of johnny's sub-cults, but I wouldn't trust him.

 

[jiminpa]

The thing is that we have an active member here who is very involved with the NAR movement, but nobody just asks him, because he won't tell you what you want to hear.

I have old friends that I still keep in touch with on facebook who are also quite involved in the movement and those friends love God and find that attending OneThing conferences is edifying. Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear, but it is what God's word says to say, rather than to go digging for gossip.

I've read some of what Mike Bickle and Misty Edwards have to say, and the worst I can say about them is that I think they fast too much. I wish that the worst thing that anyone could say about me is that I do too much of something in seeking God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Which leaders affiliate themselves with NAR?

 

[AGTG]

Nope really stories of those who has been in new apostolic reformation movement and left from there...pls check this berean examiner link it seems to scary.

It's real, it's apostate, it's a plague upon the earth. I went into it, and by God's grace I got out of it. You can see what the Lord taught me from my time there on the website I created to warn others to come out from the delusion:

www.becarefulhowyouhear.com

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It's real, it's apostate, it's a plague upon the earth. I went into it, and by God's grace I got out of it. You can see what the Lord taught me from my time there on the website I created to warn others to come out from the delusion:

www.becarefulhowyouhear.com

This links has in it's first up video, mention that the author does not believe, resting in the Spirit or being slain in the Spirit is of God. He thinks it is witch craft. The title of the second video is to criticize the Brownsville revival. He thinks revival is an idol.

 

[amariselle]

This links has in it's first up video, mention that the author does not believe, resting in the Spirit or being slain in the Spirit is of God. He thinks it is witch craft. The title of the second video is to criticize the Brownsville revival. He thinks revival is an idol.

Why should anyone believe that acting drunk, stumbling around, falling over, laughing uncontrollably, babbling incoherently (with no interpretation), barking like a dog/making animal noises, crawling around on the floor, twitching spasmodically, losing control of your body etc. is the work of the Holy Spirit?

Why should anyone believe that the Holy Spirit (which Scripture tells us brings temperance/self control) blesses people by causing them to lose control and act shamefully and chaotically?

Why should anyone believe that such disrespectful and disruptive behaviour is "revival"? Who is being edified by such things? Who is being built up and encouraged in the faith by such pandemonium and by people who at times cannot even clearly read the word of God because of their "drunkenness" and so called "Holy Laughter"?

I have watched and listened to hours of this (from Brownsville, from the Toronto "Blessing", from "Lakeland") None of it bears any resemblance to Biblical accounts of the Holy Spirit.

Why should anyone believe the Holy Spirit make one act drunk as a blessing, when Scripture forbids drunkenness? Why should anyone believe the Holy Spirit brings chaos, confusion and disorder when Scripture tells us God is not the Author of confusion and that the Church should be characterized by peace? Why would the Holy Spirit cause loss of self-control, when one of the "fruits of the Spirit", according to Scripture is temperance/self-control? Why inane and incomprehensible babbling that no one understands because it is not ever interpreted, when Scripture tells us tongues must be interpreted?

This is not "revival". True revival would center around the Gospel and sound doctrine, not chaotic, emotional experiences and disorderly, disrespectful behaviour.

I also find it highly offensive that the Holy Spirit (God) is equated to "wine" to get drunk on. The Holy Spirit is not a substance to "drink" and get drunk.

I have actually watched "ministers" acting in this way, be entirely unable to read Scripture. Would the Holy Spirit ever cause someone to be unable to read God's word?

I have family and friends caught up in this stuff. It breaks my heart.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Why should anyone believe that acting drunk, stumbling around, falling over, laughing uncontrollably, babbling incoherently (with no interpretation), barking like a dog/making animal noises, crawling around on the floor, twitching spasmodically, losing control of your body etc. is the work of the Holy Spirit?

Why should anyone believe that the Holy Spirit (which Scripture tells us brings temperance/self control) blesses people by causing them to lose control and act shamefully and chaotically?

Why should anyone believe that such disrespectful and disruptive behaviour is "revival"? Who is being edified by such things? Who is being built up and encouraged in the faith by such pandemonium and by people who at times cannot even clearly read the word of God because of their "drunkenness" and so called "Holy Laughter"?

I have watched and listened to hours of this (from Brownsville, from the Toronto "Blessing", from "Lakeland") None of it bears any resemblance to Biblical accounts of the Holy Spirit.

Why should anyone believe the Holy Spirit make one act drunk as a blessing, when Scripture forbids drunkenness? Why should anyone believe the Holy Spirit brings chaos, confusion and disorder when Scripture tells us God is not the Author of confusion and that the Church should be characterized by peace? Why would the Holy Spirit cause loss of self-control, when one of the "fruits of the Spirit", according to Scripture is temperance/self-control? Why inane and incomprehensible babbling that no one understands because it is not ever interpreted, when Scripture tells us tongues must be interpreted?

This is not "revival". True revival would center around the Gospel and sound doctrine, not chaotic, emotional experiences and disorderly, disrespectful behaviour.

I also find it highly offensive that the Holy Spirit (God) is equated to "wine" to get drunk on. The Holy Spirit is not a substance to "drink" and get drunk.

I have actually watched "ministers" acting in this way, be entirely unable to read Scripture. Would the Holy Spirit ever cause someone to be unable to read God's word?

I have family and friends caught up in this stuff. It breaks my heart.

There are a lot of scriptures you miss from the Gospel about old and new wine, living water, about God doing new things and the importance of testifying. The person who laughs or rolls can say that what happened in that time, unique to each testifier led to a new freedom from sin or guilt or shame...

Sometimes a person shaking is refusing God periodically.

The fruit of the Spirit depends on being under Gods rule. Self control is not independent control.

We do not have to interpret tongues strictly. There is no austere disciplinarian leader.

Jesus character was not as expected by the Jews in His day, and they mainly missed Him. The Holy Spirit is playful, and people reading the Bible can come across Him and miss Him too.

 

[amariselle]

There are a lot of scriptures you miss from the Gospel about old and new wine, living water, about God doing new things and the importance of testifying. The person who laughs or rolls can say that what happened in that time, unique to each testifier led to a new freedom from sin or guilt or shame...

Please show me, from Scripture, in proper context, where the Holy Spirit ever blessed anyone by causing them to laugh uncontrollably, lose control of their bodies or act like an animal/make animal noises. (And that such is necessary to bring freedom from sin, guilt or shame).

What I read in the Bible is that Christ is the One, through faith in the Gospel, Who delivers us from sin, guilt and shame, not disruptive, chaotic and emotional experiences, which are entirely subjective and not objective truth based on sound doctrine.

Sometimes a person shaking is refusing God periodically.

Scripture reference?

The fruit of the Spirit depends on being under Gods rule. Self control is not independent control.

I don't even know what you're saying here. Self control is the opposite of the loss of control we see in these so called "revivals." So, is Scripture correct that temperance and self control is a "fruit of the Spirit", or should we instead disregard Scripture and accept that a loss of self-control is a fruit of the Spirit? Which is it, because they cannot both be right.

Again, I ask for Scripture to back up these "manifestations." If this is truly the Holy Spirit moving, it will be confirmed by the inspired word of God.

We do not have to interpret tongues strictly. There is no austere disciplinarian leader.

Scripture is absolutely clear, tongues must be interpreted, or the person is to keep silent.

Jesus character was not as expected by the Jews in His day, and they mainly missed Him.

That is no argument for unBiblical "manifestations" and "revivals". Jesus did not contradict the Scriptures (OT), He actually fulfilled prophecy after prophecy and was clear that the Scriptures pointed to Him.

The Holy Spirit is playful, and people reading the Bible can come across Him and miss Him too.

Where in Scripture is the Holy Spirit ever described as "playful"? Is God just playing games with people?

Please refer me to those verses.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Please show me, from Scripture, in proper context, where the Holy Spirit ever blessed anyone by causing them to laugh uncontrollably, lose control of their bodies or act like an animal/make animal noises. (And that such is necessary to bring freedom from sin, guilt or shame).

What I read in the Bible is that Christ is the One, through faith in the Gospel, Who delivers us from sin, guilt and shame, not disruptive, chaotic and emotional experiences, which are entirely subjective and not objective truth based on sound doctrine.

In Acts 2:13-19 the Apostles are an attraction in the morning and many come to see the happenings, and must explain they are not drunk. But they explain this is the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Joel and that God is pouring out His Spirit.

It is a subjective experience and the fulfillment of the objective truth when they hear a message in their language and probably their secret thoughts revealed 1 Cor 14:25, leading to repentance. Verse 37. Only this led them from to scripture and to discover who Jesus was. Their classic interpretation of Isaiah's suffering servant was not one man.

Verse 21 mentions calling on God's name. This was the first revival in Genesis. Gen 4:26

I don't even know what you're saying here. Self control is the opposite of the loss of control we see in these so called "revivals." So, is Scripture correct that temperance and self control is a "fruit of the Spirit", or should we instead disregard Scripture and accept that a loss of self-control is a fruit of the Spirit? Which is it, because they cannot both be right.

The fruit of the Spirit only comes after receiving the Holy Spirit and surrendering to God within, God is in control first. We are not independent.

Again, I ask for Scripture to back up these "manifestations." If this is truly the Holy Spirit moving, it will be confirmed by the inspired word of God.

No, God is always doing new things, Jesus' Gospel is a summary, in which He said, you will know a tree by it's fruit. So you must not think it must have happened before in scripture, but listen to testimonies and see conduct. Look for improvement, recovery, goodness...

Scripture is absolutely clear, tongues must be interpreted, or the person is to keep silent.

Tongues should not be spoken over the sermon, after worship there should be gifts for justification, but a person after the preaching can pray for themselves on the way out, or, pray for another in tongues, and then maybe give a word.

That is no argument for unBiblical "manifestations" and "revivals". Jesus did not contradict the Scriptures (OT), He actually fulfilled prophecy after prophecy and was clear that the Scriptures pointed to Him.

It was not clear to the people at the time. Only the apostles made that clear, and still some disagreed.

Where in Scripture is the Holy Spirit ever described as "playful"? Is God just playing games with people?

God is not only playing games, He is not like a reverend man, or simple. There has to be room for new revelations as happened with each new book in the Bible. Jude mentioned the faith was once handed down, but years later, came Revelation after other books.

Is there something wrong with playfulness?
[/QUOTE]

 

[amariselle]

In Acts 2:13-19 the Apostles are an attraction in the morning and many come to see the happenings, and must explain they are not drunk.

Who accused them of being "drunk" and why?

But they explain this is the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Joel and that God is pouring out His Spirit.

Indeed, and what was the manifestation of the Spirit? Were the disciples acting drunk? Were they staggering around? Were they falling over and losing control of their bodies? Were they barking like dogs or making other animal noises? Were they laughing uncontrollably or behaving disrespectfully?

It is a subjective experience and the fulfillment of the objective truth when they hear a message in their language and probably their secret thoughts revealed, leading to repentance. Verse 37. Only this led them from to scripture and to discover who Jesus was. Their classic interpretation of Isaiah's suffering servant was not one man.

So, "tongues" here was not simply babbling nonsense? Correct?

Verse 21 mentions calling on God's name. This was the first revival in Genesis.

And what has that to do with being "slain in the Spirit" or "Holy Laughter"? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, by sound doctrine, not by incorherent babbling, chaos, confusion, pandemonium and disruptive behaviour.

The fruit of the Spirit only comes after receiving the Holy Spirit and surrendering to God within, God is in control first. We are not independent.

Agreed. So where in Scripture does it tell us that these "manifestations" are what occurs when one receives the Holy Spirit sent by God?

Where is it written that such people will bark like dogs, crawl around on the floor, twitch and spasm, experience bodily contortions, laugh uncontrollably, act drunk, fall over, stagger around, slide out of their chair, lay on the floor for hours etc.?

No, God is always doing new things,

God will never ever contradict His word.

Jesus' Gospel is a summary, in which He said, you will know a tree by it's fruit. So you must not think it must have happened before in scripture, but listen to testimonies and see conduct. Look for improvement, recovery, goodness...

"Fruit" in proper context is sound doctrine. Jesus was warning about false prophets and apostles.

So yes, we must indeed search the Scriptures and test all things. We must not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they be of God.

Tongues should not be spoken over the sermon, after worship there should be gifts for justification, but a person after the preaching can pray for themselves on the way out, or, pray for another in tongues, and then maybe give a word.

Scripture is clear, tongues must be interpreted or the person is to keep silent.

It was not clear to the people at the time. Only the apostles made that clear, and still some disagreed.

It should have been clear, because Jesus did not contradict Scripture, He fulfilled it. That is the point.

God is not only playing games, He is not like a reverend man, or simple. There has to be room for new revelations as happened with each new book in the Bible. Jude mentioned the faith was once handed down, but years later, came Revelation after other books.

God is not playing games at all. He gave us His inspired word for a reason. And no "new revelation" will ever contradict His word. The Bible is not a dead or antiquated, irrelevant book. It is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword.

And it tells us that in these last days God has spoken to us through His Son. In Christ we have the fullness of revelation, the hope of our salvation and eternal life, God Himself come to live among us and save us.

And Scripture also exhorts us to earnestly contend for the faith once delievered to the saints.

Is there something wrong with playfulness?

You didn't answer my question, where in Scripture is the Holy Spirit described as "playful"?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Who accused them of being "drunk" and why?

Those who killed Jesus, some of the Jews. Because they could see them.

Indeed, and what was the manifestation of the Spirit? Were the disciples acting drunk? Were they staggering around? Were they falling over and losing control of their bodies? Were they barking like dogs or making other animal noises? Were they laughing uncontrollably or behaving disrespectfully?

This sounds like you are offended. They laugh under the control of the Holy Spirit, who was given control, when they surrendered to Him. It strengthens them, the testimony in every single instance of a manifestation is very important. So assuming there is something wrong is like prejudice. You pre-judge people and the Spirit behind them.

Barking like dogs is a sign the Master is returning home. Spinning around and a person testifies to being unraveled, set free. People testify to waves of the Father's love coming over them, until they are tired, and cannot take more, and there lives are changed, warmed, never the same again.

So, "tongues" here was not simply babbling nonsense? Correct?

Tongues is never babbling nonsense, it can be interpreted. It is mentioned in 1 Cor 12.
Pentecost did not involve "tongues" but known tongues.

And what has that to do with being "slain in the Spirit" or "Holy Laughter"? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, by sound doctrine, not by incorherent babbling, chaos, confusion, pandemonium and disruptive behaviour.

No one said faith comes that way, nor do I agree there is incoherent babbling, chaos or confusion. Again I say, listen to the testimony, what the manifestee says after, for the change, the fruits.

Agreed. So where in Scripture does it tell us that these "manifestations" are what occurs when one receives the Holy Spirit sent by God?

We don't need that. The Gospel is a summary, and does not contain all the details you want. It even says at the end, that if all the signs and proofs Jesus performed were written down, that the world would not have enough room for the books. Some manifestations are unique. We don't need to find in 120 pages an account of everything that the Spirit will do. Even after 300 pages the OT gained new knowledge and experiences.

Jesus called the Holy Spirit "wine".

Where is it written that such people will bark like dogs, crawl around on the floor, twitch and spasm, experience bodily contortions, laugh uncontrollably, act drunk, fall over, stagger around, slide out of their chair, lay on the floor for hours etc.?

Again, we don't need to read it from the Gospel, we keep the trend of new revelations being discerned by testimonies of fruits for the better.

God will never ever contradict His word.

We like the Jews can misunderstand and take offense at the Teacher. "Eat my flesh, drink my blood." And Jesus did works such as with mud and spit of the sabbath. He broke the law and explained King David did the same thing, by going into the temple and eating the show bread...
Jesus also warned that when He is generous to give a coin to a person who worked one hour, that a person who worked all day, for the same pay, can become evil eyed by asking for the earlier worker to receive less. We should not judge God.

"Fruit" in proper context is sound doctrine. Jesus was warning about false prophets and apostles.

So yes, we must indeed search the Scriptures and test all things. We must not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they be of God.

It sounds like you are a cessationist here in the Spirit Filled forum. Matt 7:17, Jesus is talking about the works more than the talk of the false. A person can speak right but do Evil. A person should be clean and not think or enact murder and adultery, fornication, theft, slander or blasphemy. The fruit of kindness, grace, mercy, generosity... are good works. Also healing is a kindness from God given to individuals by pastors and teachers...

Jesus said Satan will not cast out Satan, he will not heal or plunder his own kingdom. So the Spirit who does these things is God.

Scripture is clear, tongues must be interpreted or the person is to keep silent.

The scripture says we are to be led by the Spirit like King David and Jesus who broke the law. Whatever does good, is the done thing. There is something over sensitively wrong if a person speaks in a tongue after worship, and says "Barrabas"... and people think somehow Satan is here... a bit of a foul old witch hunt thinking.

It should have been clear, because Jesus did not contradict Scripture, He fulfilled it. That is the point.

Jesus knew many people would not believe Him. About eating His flesh, that one man was the Messiah. That a gentle man would engage Satan and not a warrior Rome... If they can be mistaken, so can we today.

God is not playing games at all. He gave us His inspired word for a reason. And no "new revelation" will ever contradict His word. The Bible is not a dead or antiquated, irrelevant book. It is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword.

And it tells us that in these last days God has spoken to us through His Son. In Christ we have the fullness of revelation, the hope of our salvation and eternal life, God Himself come to live among us and save us.

And Scripture also exhorts us to earnestly contend for the faith once delievered to the saints.

The faith once delivered, is a quote from Jude, and years later other books came and Revelation last.
The Pharisees thought they were contending for the faith.
"They will know we are Christians by our love." Not our understanding and proclamation of objective truth. Only when it becomes subjective, has it made a difference in a person.

You didn't answer my question, where in Scripture is the Holy Spirit described as "playful"?

So, God revealed new things in each era of Israel in the OT. Scripture is a short living book. It does not have thousands of pages of details. It is written for children and simple uneducated people as well as the scholars.

In Revelation God is a man of wars, but in His church, it is no blasphemy for Him to love us and be fun instead of austere and ruly, legalistic and fearsome.

 

[amariselle]

Those who killed Jesus, some of the Jews. Because they could see them.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. -Acts 2:1-15

It was the "mockers" who accused those speaking in tongues (actual languages) of being "drunk on new wine." And Peter corrects them.

Nowhere does Acts, or any other verse in Scripture, say that the Holy Spirit causes drunken behaviour, uncontrollable laughter, loss of physical control, animal noises etc.

This sounds like you are offended.

Anyone should be offended when the Holy Spirit (God) is made a mockery of, equated with "wine" to drink and get drunk on or credited with causing disrespectful and ungodly behaviour that edifies and encourages no one in the truth.

And it is very personal for me. I have family and friends deeply involved in this.

They laugh under the control of the Holy Spirit, who was given control, when they surrendered to Him.

Scripture? Where is this written?

It strengthens them, the testimony in every single instance of a manifestation is very important. So assuming there is something wrong is like prejudice. You pre-judge people and the Spirit behind them.

No. I don't judge people, yes I do judge the "spirit" behind such things. Scripture tells all believers to do so.

Barking like dogs is a sign the Master is returning home.

Scripture? Where is this written? (And Jesus actually has not returned yet, as you know, nor do I recall anything in Scripture that tells us when He does, believers will "bark like dogs" to greet Him.)

Spinning around and a person testifies to being unraveled, set free.

Where is this written? Also, you may not be aware, but such "manifestations" occur in other religions that care nothing for Christ as well. Should we believe them too in that case? (Look up "Whirling Dervishes")

People testify to waves of the Father's love coming over them, until they are tired, and cannot take more, and there lives are changed, warmed, never the same again.

I'm more concerned with testing emotional and subjective experiences by the word of God, as Scripture tells us we must.

So, again, where in the Bible can we find the Holy Spirit doing this to people?

Tongues is never babbling nonsense, it can be interpreted. It is mentioned in 1 Cor 12.
Pentecost did not involve "tongues" but known tongues.

Tongues must be interpreted, as Scripture says.

No one said faith comes that way, nor do I agree there is incoherent babbling, chaos or confusion. Again I say, listen to the testimony, what the manifestee says after, for the change, the fruits.

I've listened to many many "testimonies", and the focus is nearly always on some experience or encounter and not on sound doctrine and right teaching. As time goes on, I've seen people care less and less about Scripture and more and more about chasing some emotional high or ecstatic experience, even if it includes error and false teaching or man-centered doctrine.

Rather, we are told in Scripture to love the truth and not to chase after "signs."

We don't need that. The Gospel is a summary, and does not contain all the details you want.

The Gospel is everything, it is our only hope.

It even says at the end, that if all the signs and proofs Jesus performed were written down, that the world would not have enough room for the books.

Yes. I agree. But nothing Jesus did that wasn't recorded would have contradicted what is recorded. God does not go against His word.

Some manifestations are unique. We don't need to find in 120 pages an account of everything that the Spirit will do. Even after 300 pages the OT gained new knowledge and experiences.

God will not contradict His word.

Jesus called the Holy Spirit "wine".

He was telling a parable and He did not say the Holy Spirit is a substance to get drunk on. The Holy Spirit is God.

Again, we don't need to read it from the Gospel, we keep the trend of new revelations being discerned by testimonies of fruits for the better.

Anything that contradicts God's word and is therefore not true and sound doctrine, must be rejected.

If you don't hold fast to God's word, how do you know of what you're accepting is true? Pretty soon anything goes.

We like the Jews can misunderstand and take offense at the Teacher. "Eat my flesh, drink my blood." And Jesus did works such as with mud and spit of the sabbath. He broke the law and explained King David did the same thing, by going into the temple and eating the show bread...

He fulfilled the Law, perfectly. What He rejected was the Pharisaical system.

Jesus also warned that when He is generous to give a coin to a person who worked one hour, that a person who worked all day, for the same pay, can become evil eyed by asking for the earlier worker to receive less. We should not judge God.

Who is judging God? That is a false accusation. Seeking discernment and "testing the spirits is a command given in God's word.

It sounds like you are a cessationist here in the Spirit Filled forum.

I am not a cessasionist, actually. And I too am "Spirit filled", as all true believers are.

Matt 7:17, Jesus is talking about the works more than the talk of the false.

Jesus warned of deception many times, many other Scriptures do as well. Paul warned "night and day with tears" for 3 years in one example in Scripture. I would say God takes deception very seriously indeed.

A person can speak right but do Evil. A person should be clean and not think or enact murder and adultery, fornication, theft, slander or blasphemy. The fruit of kindness, grace, mercy, generosity... are good works. Also healing is a kindness from God given to individuals by pastors and teachers...

And? I don't believe any of that supports these "manifestations."

Jesus said Satan will not cast out Satan, he will not heal or plunder his own kingdom. So the Spirit who does these things is God.

Satan isn't "casting out Satan." I never said he was. However, Scripture also says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and his servants as servants of righteousness.

Until I find, by the word of God, that these manifestations agree with Scripture, I will not accept them. Let's not forget, we are in a very real spiritual battle.

The scripture says we are to be led by the Spirit like King David and Jesus who broke the law.

Again, Jesus did not "break the Law", He fulfilled it. And there is nothing whatsoever in Scripture that tells us David or Jesus ever acted in the ways we see in these "revivals."

Whatever does good, is the done thing. There is something over sensitively wrong if a person speaks in a tongue after worship, and says "Barrabas"... and people think somehow Satan is here... a bit of a foul old witch hunt thinking.

If you think testing the spirits as Scripture command is "witch hunting", so be it.

Jesus knew many people would not believe Him. About eating His flesh, that one man was the Messiah. That a gentle man would engage Satan and not a warrior Rome... If they can be mistaken, so can we today.

We will not be mistaken if we search the Scriptures and hold fast to God's word (the sword of the Spirit).

The faith once delivered, is a quote from Jude, and years later other books came and Revelation last.

Your point? None of the books of the Bible invalidate any other.

The Pharisees thought they were contending for the faith.

Indeed. People who stand up against these unBiblical manifestations get that accusation a lot. Compare me to a Pharisee all you like. It doesn't change the fact that these "manifestations" contradict the word of God.

"They will know we are Christians by our love." Not our understanding and proclamation of objective truth. Only when it becomes subjective, has it made a difference in a person.

Wow, there is just so much wrong with that above statement. Real love is the truth. You cannot really love anyone if you don't hold fast to the truth.

And we are in fact to proclaim the Gospel (which is "objective truth")

What you have just said, when taken to its inevitable conclusion, opens people up to subjective and emotional experiences regardless of what the Bible says. Pretty soon, personal experience will be all that matters, and where will that leave a person?

So, God revealed new things in each era of Israel in the OT. Scripture is a short living book. It does not have thousands of pages of details. It is written for children and simple uneducated people as well as the scholars.

Yet, in these "last days", He has spoken to us through His Son. I am troubled by your flippant attitude toward Scripture. Scripture is an enduring book, which will not pass away. Without it neither you, nor anyone else, knows anything specific or concrete about God. People really must learn to love and cherish His word.

In Revelation God is a man of wars, but in His church, it is no blasphemy for Him to love us and be fun instead of austere and ruly, legalistic and fearsome.

Again, please show me where it is written that God is "fun", or that the Holy Spirit is "playful."

And, by the way, lest you continue to imply that I just think God is some distant, legalistic God who doesn't love us, I don't believe that.

Of course He loves us, and how do we know this? By emotional, hyped up, subjective experiences? No. By His word. (Most fully, in the Gospel) Again, without it no one would know anything about Him.

And let us be careful that we do not ascribe to God things not supported by His word, or anything that actually goes against it.

Deception is actually a reality. Scripture is true and it warns us of such increasing in the "last days."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

About resting in the Spirit, also called being slain in the Spirit. It gives testimonies of good fruit. I suppose it can be counterfeited.
Here are some Bible verses all KJV unless otherwise indicated:

Gen_2:21 (ASV) And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof:

Gen_15:12 (ASV) And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

So this happens in three Bible verses, and none of them at least at the time were condemned.

In the following verses there is the drawing of sinners out from sin, which Spirit filled churches ask for and do. Other churches may be persuasive but grace does it. To receive a touch from God is so real and life changing. Believers are left on their backs under the power:

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Also here, a touch from the fire of God makes a change. And did Isaiah simply stand still?

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

The fire is hot with God's love. It would have been too much for fallen Adam and Eve, and was too much for Israel in the Exodus, the fearsome pillar of fire. So God expressed His love differently. Skins, blood sacrifice, the Ark of the Covenant, and mainly in Jesus Christ, the God-Man. We should be filled with Jesus' sacred blood.

Scripture says we are to receive Christ, deny ourselves and take up our cross. Die to self each day. The seed that dies bears much fruit. And the fruit are in Galatians 5:22. So our self control is by God's government, upon His shoulders.

Joh_12:24 (ASV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.
Joh_15:5 (ASV) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The following scriptures are about who and how to respect, and about joy in God's presence, and playfulness in Godliness:

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

In the above, the true trees and fruits are in joy and praise, liveliness and this glorifies God. Respects God, not critics and head strong people.

Here is another scripture about the perfect way to treat the Ark of the Covenant and God's presence, and how to glorify God:

2Sa 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom, and all his household.

2Sa 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.

2Sa 6:13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

David and Michal

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

2Sa 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

2Sa 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.

2Sa 6:19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

2Sa 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

She ought not have been a critic of play before God. Reverence was hidden in this playfulness.

Love should be free, from laws and critics and even too much reservedness, no laughing, no shouts, no prayers in tongues without interpretations... God is love, it comes in waves on people, causing them to quake... It isn't only emotion but stirs such up.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Joy and love not reserved from expression, is real church practice. When you are filled with them, you have the objective truth of scripture inside. This makes it subjective truth, experiencing Jesus, the Father and or the Holy Spirit. This is real spirituality over mental ascent!

A person in among the Spirit filled church can during the main service or altar call, or with others hear his or her secret thoughts revealed. Towards goodness. So they testify and choose the right and gracious. As here:

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

And people may think we are mad, but testify when their thoughts are revealed.

Here is some of God's word on testimonies:

Psa_25:10 (WEB) All the paths of Yahweh are loving kindness and truth to such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psa_78:56 (WEB) Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God, and didn’t keep his testimonies;

Psa_99:7 (WEB) He spoke to them in the pillar of cloud. They kept his testimonies, the statute that he gave them.

Psa_119:14 (WEB) I have rejoiced in the way of your testimonies, as much as in all riches.

Psa_119:99 (WEB) I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.

Psa_119:111 (WEB) I have taken your testimonies as a heritage forever, for they are the joy of my heart.

Psa_119:119 (WEB) You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross. Therefore I love your testimonies.

Psa_119:125 (WEB) I am your servant. Give me understanding, that I may know your testimonies.

Psa_119:129 (WEB) PEY Your testimonies are wonderful, therefore my soul keeps them.

Psa_119:144 (WEB) Your testimonies are righteous forever. Give me understanding, that I may live.

Psa_119:152 (WEB) Of old I have known from your testimonies, that you have founded them forever.

Psa_119:157 (WEB) Many are my persecutors and my adversaries. I haven’t swerved from your testimonies.

Psa_119:167 (WEB) My soul has observed your testimonies. I love them exceedingly.

Psa_119:168 (WEB) I have obeyed your precepts and your testimonies, for all my ways are before you.

So free from any laws, Moses' or Jesus' laws, to do what is wise and salvific we know the fruit is joy and that expressed. Love, with the whole heart, all one's strength. Reverence and self control don't forbid tongues and joy. Tongues during speaking times best not come forward unless the tongues speaker knows someone is there to interpret. Otherwise it is fine.

Just think of a Rabbi then or now with an IQ of 160 being told Moses law is done away with for another purpose and grace now is the real way? After 500 years post exile with little revival of prophecy and the Spirit's power, they relied too much on the letter, like some of us today.

Rom_7:6 (GNB) Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

It is a jump to go from law to grace.

Jesus changes our hearts, thoughts and works by His Spirit filling. Each person is unique and so verses cannot be brought forwards about each person, so Jesus generalizes here:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We bear fruit when we receive and deny ourselves or surrender to God within, our self control and He gives joy and goodness... we testify of it, or of seeing it, and people judge our works and sayings...

Mockers may think we are drunk, others think the tongues mean we are mad, so two observations there as above and here:

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Jesus said there was old wine and new, and Himself was disliked for drinking:

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.


Luk 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

So being filled with the Holy Spirit makes one another kind of drunk.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

The above is not solemn and fearing critics, but fun and lively, say it like you mean it.

So, hidden joy, or hidden reverence?

In the scriptures, we read and thirst for living water, discover that the old revelation missed details in the new, Genesis had a tree of life, Revelation has many such:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

God always brings out new revelations, even after the full Gospel was revealed in Jude:

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The Bible does not reveal all but reveals that God reveals new things all the time.

To me the word of God is true and a means to absolute truth, and to God. It is higher than any science book, and history book... It is my rock.

In the future there may be new books in the Bible, at Jesus second coming. The Ark of the Covenant will not be remembered:

Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

In this time of grace, grace has effects, and changes people. Sinners, prostitutes, warlocks turn in churches of grace. But solemn churches? In churches full of grace nice people grow warmer in love coming from the father in waves. Ps Ian McCormack testifies of this love in the story of his NDE, one hour long on youtube.

Jesus' sacred blood readies us for fire. Living water is refreshing. And there is the anointing to discern by, together with the above and other scriptures.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher of all Truth and they will know we are Christians by our love in works and testimonies. They may mock and say we are mad, drunk, holy rollers, quakers, methodical, spastic, confused, shameful, disrespectful, dumb... but God can reach some. There is much mercy from God, even Howard Storm in his NDE was shown mercy, also on youtube.

Merry Christmas.

 

[amariselle]

About resting in the Spirit, also called being slain in the Spirit. It gives testimonies of good fruit. I suppose it can be counterfeited.
Here are some Bible verses all KJV unless otherwise indicated:

Gen_2:21 (ASV) And Jehovah God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof:

Gen_15:12 (ASV) And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

So this happens in three Bible verses, and none of them at least at the time were condemned.

In the following verses there is the drawing of sinners out from sin, which Spirit filled churches ask for and do. Other churches may be persuasive but grace does it. To receive a touch from God is so real and life changing. Believers are left on their backs under the power:

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Also here, a touch from the fire of God makes a change. And did Isaiah simply stand still?

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

The fire is hot with God's love. It would have been too much for fallen Adam and Eve, and was too much for Israel in the Exodus, the fearsome pillar of fire. So God expressed His love differently. Skins, blood sacrifice, the Ark of the Covenant, and mainly in Jesus Christ, the God-Man. We should be filled with Jesus' sacred blood.

Scripture says we are to receive Christ, deny ourselves and take up our cross. Die to self each day. The seed that dies bears much fruit. And the fruit are in Galatians 5:22. So our self control is by God's government, upon His shoulders.

Joh_12:24 (ASV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.
Joh_15:5 (ASV) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The following scriptures are about who and how to respect, and about joy in God's presence, and playfulness in Godliness:

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

In the above, the true trees and fruits are in joy and praise, liveliness and this glorifies God. Respects God, not critics and head strong people.

Here is another scripture about the perfect way to treat the Ark of the Covenant and God's presence, and how to glorify God:

2Sa 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom, and all his household.

2Sa 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.

2Sa 6:13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

David and Michal

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

2Sa 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

2Sa 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.

2Sa 6:19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

2Sa 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

She ought not have been a critic of play before God. Reverence was hidden in this playfulness.

Love should be free, from laws and critics and even too much reservedness, no laughing, no shouts, no prayers in tongues without interpretations... God is love, it comes in waves on people, causing them to quake... It isn't only emotion but stirs such up.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Joy and love not reserved from expression, is real church practice. When you are filled with them, you have the objective truth of scripture inside. This makes it subjective truth, experiencing Jesus, the Father and or the Holy Spirit. This is real spirituality over mental ascent!

A person in among the Spirit filled church can during the main service or altar call, or with others hear his or her secret thoughts revealed. Towards goodness. So they testify and choose the right and gracious. As here:

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

And people may think we are mad, but testify when their thoughts are revealed.

Here is some of God's word on testimonies:

Psa_25:10 (WEB) All the paths of Yahweh are loving kindness and truth to such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psa_78:56 (WEB) Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God, and didn’t keep his testimonies;

Psa_99:7 (WEB) He spoke to them in the pillar of cloud. They kept his testimonies, the statute that he gave them.

Psa_119:14 (WEB) I have rejoiced in the way of your testimonies, as much as in all riches.

Psa_119:99 (WEB) I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation.

Psa_119:111 (WEB) I have taken your testimonies as a heritage forever, for they are the joy of my heart.

Psa_119:119 (WEB) You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross. Therefore I love your testimonies.

Psa_119:125 (WEB) I am your servant. Give me understanding, that I may know your testimonies.

Psa_119:129 (WEB) PEY Your testimonies are wonderful, therefore my soul keeps them.

Psa_119:144 (WEB) Your testimonies are righteous forever. Give me understanding, that I may live.

Psa_119:152 (WEB) Of old I have known from your testimonies, that you have founded them forever.

Psa_119:157 (WEB) Many are my persecutors and my adversaries. I haven’t swerved from your testimonies.

Psa_119:167 (WEB) My soul has observed your testimonies. I love them exceedingly.

Psa_119:168 (WEB) I have obeyed your precepts and your testimonies, for all my ways are before you.

So free from any laws, Moses' or Jesus' laws, to do what is wise and salvific we know the fruit is joy and that expressed. Love, with the whole heart, all one's strength. Reverence and self control don't forbid tongues and joy. Tongues during speaking times best not come forward unless the tongues speaker knows someone is there to interpret. Otherwise it is fine.

Just think of a Rabbi then or now with an IQ of 160 being told Moses law is done away with for another purpose and grace now is the real way? After 500 years post exile with little revival of prophecy and the Spirit's power, they relied too much on the letter, like some of us today.

Rom_7:6 (GNB) Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

It is a jump to go from law to grace.

Jesus changes our hearts, thoughts and works by His Spirit filling. Each person is unique and so verses cannot be brought forwards about each person, so Jesus generalizes here:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We bear fruit when we receive and deny ourselves or surrender to God within, our self control and He gives joy and goodness... we testify of it, or of seeing it, and people judge our works and sayings...

Mockers may think we are drunk, others think the tongues mean we are mad, so two observations there as above and here:

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Jesus said there was old wine and new, and Himself was disliked for drinking:

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.


Luk 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

So being filled with the Holy Spirit makes one another kind of drunk.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

The above is not solemn and fearing critics, but fun and lively, say it like you mean it.

So, hidden joy, or hidden reverence?

In the scriptures, we read and thirst for living water, discover that the old revelation missed details in the new, Genesis had a tree of life, Revelation has many such:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

God always brings out new revelations, even after the full Gospel was revealed in Jude:

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The Bible does not reveal all but reveals that God reveals new things all the time.

To me the word of God is true and a means to absolute truth, and to God. It is higher than any science book, and history book... It is my rock.

In the future there may be new books in the Bible, at Jesus second coming. The Ark of the Covenant will not be remembered:

Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

In this time of grace, grace has effects, and changes people. Sinners, prostitutes, warlocks turn in churches of grace. Nice people grow warmer in love coming from the father in waves. Ps Ian McCormack testifies of this love in the story of his NDE, one hour long on youtube.

Jesus' sacred blood readies us for fire. Living water is refreshing. And there is the anointing to discern by, together with the above and other scriptures.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher of all Truth and they will know we are Christians by our love in works and testimonies. They may mock and say we are mad, drunk, holy rollers, quakers, methodical, spastic, confused, shameful, disrespectful, dumb... but God can reach some. There is much mercy from God, even Howard Storm in his NDE was shown mercy, also on youtube.

Merry Christmas.

I have never denied grace, or joy. Yet, after reading through your entire post, I did not see even one verse that supports people acting drunk, barking like dogs/behaving like animals, twitching and losing control of their bodies or laughing uncontrollably as a sign of having received the Holy Spirit and God's blessing.

Scripture does, however, speak of the judgement and condemnation of God causing people to stagger and Nebuchadnezzar was forced to eat grass like an ox as a judgement upon him.

Scripture also warns of "lying signs and wonders" and that such will increase in the "last days" and deceive many.

You may also want to remember that all true believers are "Spirit-filled". This false dichotomy of some churches being filled with the Spirit while others are not has only led to a sort of pride and elitism that has brought guilt and condemnation on others because they have been told if they don't experience such "manifestations", they don't actually have the Holy Spirit. This is not Biblical and has actually hurt a great many people.

And many of the people who promote being "drunk in the Spirit", speak this way themselves. They themselves call the Spirit a substance one "drinks" (or even "smokes", to get high or drunk). Others repeat what they say. It is irreverent and disrespectful at best, heretical and blasphemous at worst.

The Holy Spirit is God. I would not want to be standing with the "mockers" in this way.

I've watched and listened to hours of such things, and I see absolutely no honour and respect or reverence for God in these gatherings. Usually the Scriptures are never read, indeed, often the speaker who does go to read them, finds that he cannot.

Would the Holy Spirit cause someone to be unable to read His word?

Anyway, I doubt any of that will convince you.

Many (I'm not saying you) do in fact treasure their experiences over Scripture and sound doctrine. They have been taught not to question or test anything, even though Scripture repeatedly tells us we must and warns us about deception.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

 

[amariselle]

As an example, this is the kind of stuff I'm referring to. Notice how Bentley calls it being "drunk" himself? And also how he tells people not even to try understanding anything. This is, unfortunately the common teaching with these "manifestations." Basically, check your mind at the door.

God, however, calls us to not only love Him with all our hearts, and souls, but with our minds as well.

Why should anyone believe this is the Holy Spirit? What reason, Biblically, is there to believe that God blesses anyone by doing these types of things to them?