Ex Gay Movement Doc: Cure for Love

[Beanieboy]

I know the medical answers. I know the spiritual amswers.. if we were on the medical forum, I would have talked about the chemical imbalances. We are on the christian forum and sin does cause depession. Sin also causes chemical imbalances. It still all boils down to sin. I have no idea what your relationship with the Lord was while you were "christian"... but the relationship with God is everything, for without that "christian is a hollow term that probably is the reason it only lasted a year.

I worked at a halfway house where people had depression (some so bad that they couldn't get out of bed all day). You claim that "Jesus" heals them from their depression that is a result of sin.

However, they took medication, and that balance the chemical imbalance of their brain, and made them no longer depressed.

So, following your logic, medication forgives sin just as good as Jesus?

I rather offended by your insistance to ignore scientific fact that people with depression often suffer from chemical imbalance, a physical condition, your refusal to understand the person suffering from it while having knowledge right at your fingertips, and showing no compassion whatsoever, but blaming the person for their depression, claiming that it is the result of sin.

Imagine you telling someone at work that you are going home because you have the flu, and the person responding, "Well, sickness is the result of sin, so maybe you should go home and repent for whatever it is that you did or are doing."

Is that loving your neighbor?

 

[visionary]

I worked at a halfway house where people had depression (some so bad that they couldn't get out of bed all day). You claim that "Jesus" heals them from their depression that is a result of sin.

However, they took medication, and that balance the chemical imbalance of their brain, and made them no longer depressed.

So, following your logic, medication forgives sin just as good as Jesus?

I rather offended by your insistance to ignore scientific fact that people with depression often suffer from chemical imbalance, a physical condition, your refusal to understand the person suffering from it while having knowledge right at your fingertips, and showing no compassion whatsoever, but blaming the person for their depression, claiming that it is the result of sin.

Imagine you telling someone at work that you are going home because you have the flu, and the person responding, "Well, sickness is the result of sin, so maybe you should go home and repent for whatever it is that you did or are doing."

Is that loving your neighbor?

Separate the sinful aspect from the physical condition. The physical condition does require physical care. The spritual aspect rquires spiritual care .. Can't heal the body wthout taking into consideration the spiritual... or there would be no complete healing.

This is a christian forum which deals with the spiritual aspect... so while this seems to focus on the spiritual aspect, it is because that is the purpose of the forum.

 

[Beanieboy]

Well certainly today it isn't everyone though perhaps I'm naive enough to think that there's still a significant number. In any case I believe that it is possible and healthy to live without sex before marriage.

If we want to say that homosexual sex is immoral and that homosexuals should not enter into heterosexual marriages (because it won't be a full marriage), then we also have to accept that sex and marriage aren't things that everyone, even every heterosexual, is called to.

I agree, but if someone said to you, "I burn with lust. I'm going to get married. But you? You should join the priesthood, or remain celebate."

Would you do it? Is it another's place to tell you what you should be doing, while they are sexually active? Is it another's place to tell you what God wants for your life?

While you think that there are a significant amount of men who are virgins before they marry, and something that I respect, it's not very common for a man marrying at 25 or so to be a virgin. In fact, in the dorms in college, guys would often say that it had "been over 2 weeks since I had sex. I need to find a woman fast..." And that was pretty common. It wasn't even about love for a girlfriend, but simply having sex with a woman, and bragging about it.

2 weeks?
But all gay people should live there whole life celebate?

I could understand it if I could see the harm.
If you see someone who has a meth habit, you see them not eating, spending all their money on drugs, making risky decisions, not sleeping, their body starts to look ghostly, they often lose jobs, relationships, etc.
The same can be said of alcoholism.
If you have a friend that tells you that he is cheating on his wife despite your advice against it, you watch how often he has to lie, the break of trust between him and his wife, possible STD infection, possible destruction of their family.

There were two gay guys who left New Direction.
The one said that he has his first kiss (from a man) at 27. When asked how it was, he said, "It was amazing. I was really happy. It didn't feel bad, or wrong, or disgusting. I felt a really intense love."

The other man talks of also meeting someone. Suddenly, his friends are asking what happened to him, if he was on medication, because suddenly, he seemed happy for the first time, and smiling, and confident, and funny, instead of the usual cloud of depression that he walked around with.

I fail to see how that is 'sin.' It isn't harmful to themselves or others. It makes them happy. They have companionship, they learn about trust, self sacrifice, honesty, etc.

But the other let to self hatred and depression. He was convinced that God loathed him for being gay, and needed to become acceptable to God. He said that at one of the prayer meetings, they were being freed from the bondage of sin of being gay. The room sang, "Free at last", except he realized that he wasn't free. He was still gay, just telling himself that he was free from it.

His friend adds, "They claim to have a 30% success rate, and while I stood there, realizing that I wasn't being "healed of homosexuality" nor "freed of homosexuality", I felt as bad as when I came in, if not worse. Then I thought, what about the other 70%, like me?

 

[Beanieboy]

Separate the sinful aspect from the physical condition. The physical condition does require physical care. The spritual aspect rquires spiritual care .. Can't heal the body wthout taking into consideration the spiritual... or there would be no complete healing.

This is a christian forum which deals with the spiritual aspect... so while this seems to focus on the spiritual aspect, it is because that is the purpose of the forum.

So, when you have the flu or a cold, what is the "spiritual aspect" that you address? What sin is it that has led you to get sick, exactly?

 

[visionary]

So, when you have the flu or a cold, what is the "spiritual aspect" that you address? What sin is it that has led you to get sick, exactly?

Do you believe that you can be sick in the very presence of God? If you as a believer are in His Holy Presence, would you not receive healing? Will there be infirmities in heaven? Are you obedient to the Lord's diet? Do you know that there are statistics out there of religious groups [who have abiding dietary laws, that have been researched] found to be healthier than the average? Do you believe in the promises of God where He said that if you obey Him, you would not have diseases?

 

[HannahBanana]

Do you believe that you can be sick in the very presence of God? If you as a believer are in His Holy Presence, would you not receive healing? Will there be infirmities in heaven? Are you obedient to the Lord's diet? Do you know that there are statistics out there of religious groups [who have abiding dietary laws, that have been researched] found to be healthier than the average? Do you believe in the promises of God where He said that if you obey Him, you would not have diseases?

You honestly believe that illness is caused by sin, rather than by a virus or a bacterial infection? Just how much of science are you willing to deny, anyways?

Also, dietary laws are scientific, since they're based on the body's natural balance of nutrients. Nice try, though.

 

[Beanieboy]

Do you believe in the promises of God where He said that if you obey Him, you would not have diseases?

Verse?

 

[visionary]

even a buddhist knows the spiritual benefits of vegan diet...

 

[HannahBanana]

even a buddhist knows the spiritual benefits of vegan diet...

And what exactly are those spiritual benefits?

 

[Verv]

I think it is noble for people to try to live by their religious beliefs even if it is hard. Perhaps you do not agree with it.

For instance, if someone doesn't like the fact that they drink alcohol and is trying to stop, is that something for you to criticize? Let them stop.

Just because you want them to be gay does not mean they have to be gay if they do not want to.

IF transgendered people no longer want to be men or women and choose to change that, you cheer it on; but if suddenly someone doesn't want to be gay, you don't? They want it but it is hard for them... So what?

They are like any Christian with their own struggles they may never even fully overcome. Or, so I can appeal to you, they are like a non-Christian trying to live up to principles difficult for them to live up to.

And now you think it is disgusting that someone else is going down their own personal path? I thought we were supportive of people's decisions on the far left. So why not them? Because you prefer them to think of homosexuality as a great thing, like you guys?

Let people be the people they want to be and if they come to the decision they no longer want to be gays... Respect their decision as I respect the decisions of people not to be Christian or to be gay.

 

[Beanieboy]

even a buddhist knows the spiritual benefits of vegan diet...

And Buddhists also acknowledge that they get sick occassionally.

Where in the Bible does it call for a Vegan diet?

 

[BigBadWlf]

You have to be born gain to understand. It is a life of service t God and doing His Will. It is a separation from sin. Not identifying with it, but seeing it through Gd's eyes and abhoring it. It is being strengthen by Him to do that which is righteous. It is a transforming experience that is wonderful and worth it.

Please don’t assume people are or are not born again Christians, it is rude and condescending. Who is and who is not a Christian is between that individual and God, not for you to decide and it is not based on whether or not they agree with your personal opinions.


Now will you please answer my question. Exactly how is engaging in self hatred and entering into a sham marriage “living righteously”?

​

 

[BigBadWlf]

Sin destroys the mind.. it causes depression, it causes law self-esteem, shame, guilt, and throwing blame on others instead of taking responsibility for your actions.

If the admitted their weaknss to God, then they are in the position that God could help them. For we are all weak an easily tempted by a multitude of sins... but it is the Lord who gives us strength because we admit we are weak.

Again you didn’t answer the question presented. Ex-gay therapy has been shown to be not just unsuccessful but actively harmful to individuals. 90% of those participating in ex-gay ministries / reparative or conversion therapies developed depression, 40% became suicidal, with about a third of those actually attempting suicide.



Ref:
Shidlo,A., M. Schroeder and J. Drescher,Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives. Journal of Gay & Lesbian Psychotherapy 2007

Haldeman, DC. He Practice and Ethics of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy. Psychological Perspectives, 2003

Drescher, J. A History of Reparative Therapies Journal of Homosexuality 1998

Zucker, KJ. The Politcs and Science or Reparative THerpay. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 2003




By your definition ex-gay ministries is a sin

 

[BigBadWlf]

By the way, there is no homo gene in the DNA pool..

Would you refer to any other minority is such a derogatory fashion?


…Please provide evidence to support this claim

 

[BigBadWlf]

Do you believe that you can be sick in the very presence of God? If you as a believer are in His Holy Presence, would you not receive healing? Will there be infirmities in heaven? Are you obedient to the Lord's diet? Do you know that there are statistics out there of religious groups [who have abiding dietary laws, that have been researched] found to be healthier than the average? Do you believe in the promises of God where He said that if you obey Him, you would not have diseases?

It has also been found that socio-economic class has a much larger impact on health, that is if one is wealthy one has better health….

If you would have bothered to read those studies you would find that while religion doe shave some effect on overall health it is not confined to any particular religion. When individuals in the same socio-economic class are compared Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists and Hindus all have better health than Christians.

 

[Maren]

Do you believe that you can be sick in the very presence of God? If you as a believer are in His Holy Presence, would you not receive healing? Will there be infirmities in heaven? Are you obedient to the Lord's diet? Do you know that there are statistics out there of religious groups [who have abiding dietary laws, that have been researched] found to be healthier than the average? Do you believe in the promises of God where He said that if you obey Him, you would not have diseases?

And what I see from you is the very attitude that causes gay Christians to suicide. I've seen people "give their all" to Christ. I've seen them struggle and plead and pray. And yet the "healing" you talk about never comes. In these cases when that help that they so need and desire never comes, sometimes after years of fighting and praying, they despair.

I mean, sure, it sounds good, very alluring, to promise that God will take it all away but what happens if they don't receive what you have promised? Sure, you'll say it is God and He always comes through but, what if they don't get it? And that is the problem, under your scenario (which is similar to that taught by the ex-gay movement) then the person trying to change becomes more depressed than ever because they are so worthless God won't help them. That is the danger of your teaching.

 

[Beanieboy]

And what I see from you is the very attitude that causes gay Christians to suicide. I've seen people "give their all" to Christ. I've seen them struggle and plead and pray. And yet the "healing" you talk about never comes. In these cases when that help that they so need and desire never comes, sometimes after years of fighting and praying, they despair.

I mean, sure, it sounds good, very alluring, to promise that God will take it all away but what happens if they don't receive what you have promised?

They usually blame the person, claiming that they really didn't want to change, their faith isn't strong enough, or that they aren't praying hard enough.

If you go to YouTube, and just type in exgay, or exgay survivor, you get quite a few interviews of people telling their story, and usually telling you that the reason you didn't change is not because orientation doesn't change, or that God doesn't want you to change, but because you didn't do something right. You just need to play more football, and have more male bonding, etc. You need to pray and mean it this time. It would be funny if it weren't so sad to see the hurt in these people's eyes.

 

[Verv]

Is it really a sham marriage?

If they like each other as people and are trying to overcome the same struggle that is quite unique to them I do not think we can simply dismiss it as a sham marriage.

 

[Beanieboy]

Is it really a sham marriage?

If they like each other as people and are trying to overcome the same struggle that is quite unique to them I do not think we can simply dismiss it as a sham marriage.

I don't know if I think it is a sham marriage.
Is an arranged marriage, where the couple doesn't love each other, a sham marriage?

Picture this.
Two heterosexuals marrying.
She isn't really in love with him, but this is what her parents want.
When the pastor says, "You may now kiss the bride", it looks uncomfortable, awkward, and forced.

I don't think this marriage is a sham, but I also don't think that the couple is going to be happy. Could they be? Sure. Will they be? Starting off like this, marrying out of obligation, not really loving the other, it's hard to say.
Maybe. Maybe they will be miserable.

Should she follow her parents' wishes and marry who they want her to marry, than whom she loves? That is her decision, and there will be consequences with that decision.

That's the kind of person who says, "Marriage isn't about being happy. It's about being obedient to the other person."

Would you want your spouse to say that about your marriage?

Most people say that they are "happily married" to the "love of their life", not "being obedient to God and living my life with his plan, rather than mine." Most heterosexuals choose the spouse on a number of their own criteria. They decide to get married by their own plan, their own decision. They choose to have children because they want them, not because it is what God wants. They decide when they want them, not leave it up to chance or "God's will."

Most people decide that they want to get married because they don't want to live their life without the person, or because they are in love.

That's not what their marriage sounds like. As i said, it makes me sad when people have this bizarre idea that God wants people to be unhappy or sacrifice in order to prove their devotion, whether it is celebacy (sacrifice of romantic love and sex), hermitism (sacrifice of human interaction and companionship), not eating meat on Friday, etc. Monks were said to sleep on hard beds that were uncomfortable.

Imagine this:
Would you tell your child to sleep on a hard board, to prove your love and devotion to you? Would it make you happy to find you child sleeping on the floor, telling you, "Look! I'm not sleeping in my bed so that it is uncomfortable, and I am not sucked into the pleasures of life!"? Or would you say, "Well, uh, that's great, but you don't have to do that. I want you to sleep in a soft, warm bed. Show me that you love me by treating your brother and sister with love..."

Would you be happy if your daughter agree to marry someone that she didn't love, to please you? Would you be happy when she seemed to be ok in her marriage, tolerating it, but not happy in it? Or would it sadden you?
Is obedience to you above her happiness?

That's how I see it. I feel compassionately sad, like those who used to beat themselves with whips for their sins, thinking themselves obedient to God, pleasing to God, when God asks no such thing.

 

[visionary]

I will applaud anyone who is willing to fight the good fight of faith... no matter how difficult it is to stop sinning. It is far better than those who say it can't be done and do not try.

In my own personal experience with depression, I found great comfort in the Lord and His extended help in saving me, and giving me great joy. So I know He is able to do all that He promises.

Pat answers never help, I understand the frustration you are expressing, but all I want to do is to continue to offer encouragement, because I know that the Lord is true and is faithful. I know that He loves and has performed great miracles in peoples lives so that they may overcome sin.

Not saying that you can just as frequently produce the opposite. Now why the Lord answered one request and not seemly another's, I believe the Lord is justified. We will learn that it is always at the feet of not God but us of the why did it not happen. While we do not like to hear that.. it is true. The fault lies with us as sinful humans.

So you can point out that Christians have pointed out the obvious, and it is discouraging to hear. It is meant to be helpful and instructive, not as a critism of their faith but rather an offer of ideas as to why God is not responding. You may think that this is a bunch of Job's friends gathering around the man with boils and making suggestions and a lot of times you can be exactly right. But the bottom lines does not change... God is here to separate us from sin. We are all given the instructions to go and sin no more.