Ex Gay Movement Doc: Cure for Love

[Beanieboy]

I just finished watching Cure for Love, a documentary that looked at the ex-gay movement, and the ex-exgay movement. It's pretty balanced, showing both sides, and makes some good points.

Brian (from Toronto) is gay, and Ana (from Portland) is lesbian, but they want to reconcile their sexual orientation with their spiritual beliefs. After chatting on an evangelical movement’s website and then meeting, they decide to get married even though, to the casual observer, they have little chemistry together and Ana’s body language screams discomfort.
http://www.nowtoronto.com/movies/story.cfm?content=164403

Do you think that it is ethical for a gay man and a lesbian to marry each other so that they can obey God?

Do you think that it is ethical for ex-gay ministries to claim that you can change (when even Brian admits that he still has same sex attraction, and that ex-gay ministries should simply be more honest and practical)?

And Brian and Ana's marriage? I certainly wish them the best, but it made me feel sad. Brian seemed to always be happy (as opposed to the ex-exgays who laughed, teared up when talking about being a cutter, etc.), and Ana seemed depressed. I don't remember which of the two said it, but the quote was:
"Marriage isn't about being happy. Marriage is about obeying your partner."

I think that is their problem with their faith as well.

Has anyone seen this documentary? What do you think of Brian and Ana's marriage, or decision to marry? Is it ethical?

Are exgay therapies ethical?

 

[4ng3l0fd34th]

I think that's terrible. It's horrible that a religion & stigma against a certain lifestyle can drive them to live a life of lies. Shame that they can't just be who they are, ya know? I wasn't aware such a documentary existed but I'll be sure to check it out.

 

[Washington]

Do you think that it is ethical for a gay man and a lesbian to marry each other so that they can obey God?

I believe you may be thinking of the morality of the act rather than any ethics. And because moral questions revolve around right and wrong actions, the question would have to assume some kind of harm or negative resulting from such a union. So, unless you can see some harm (or at least more harm than good) coming from it, it would not be immoral. Can you see any harm?

Do you think that it is ethical for ex-gay ministries to claim that you can change (when even Brian admits that he still has same sex attraction, and that ex-gay ministries should simply be more honest and practical)?

Not if they have absolute proof, which I have never seen. The sad thing is that their religious belief is compelling them to go against their sexual orientation when there is nothing wrong with such orientation other than the declaration of an ancient outdated text.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I believe you may be thinking of the morality of the act rather than any ethics. And because moral questions revolve around right and wrong actions, the question would have to assume some kind of harm or negative resulting from such a union. So, unless you can see some harm (or at least more harm than good) coming from it, it would not be immoral. Can you see any harm?

Is lying harmful?
Is entering a sham marriage harmful?
Is the hatred that underlies the ex-gay movement harmful?

 

[HannahBanana]

I think that it's sick how so many GLBT people feel pressured to become someone who they truly aren't. I've heard nothing but horror stories about people who have gone to so-called "ex-gay" camps. All those sorts of camps end up leading to is self-hatred and suicidal thoughts, and I cannot see how any self-respecting human being (not to mention any person who claims to follow Christ) can support those camps.

I haven't seen the movie, though, so I can't comment on that. Is it available to view online anywhere?

 

[Washington]

Is lying harmful?

Could be. Could not be.

Is entering a sham marriage harmful?

Gotta define, "sham marriage."

Is the hatred that underlies the ex-gay movement harmful?

Could be. Could not be. I'd say it depends on what form the particular hatred takes. But in any case, I can't see hatred, no matter what its form, doing the hater much good.

 

[Beanieboy]

I think that's terrible. It's horrible that a religion & stigma against a certain lifestyle can drive them to live a life of lies. Shame that they can't just be who they are, ya know? I wasn't aware such a documentary existed but I'll be sure to check it out.

While it did feel like they were trying to live "heteronormative lives", there were, in my opinion, very honest. He said that he still was attracted to men, although the organization that they work with in Toronto, which is an international Exodus organization, tries to neutralize those feelings. She also admitted that she was lesbian, so it sounded like they were very honest with others, themselves, and especially each other, and married one another because they would understand and be able to relate to the struggle of the other.

It did make me a little sad, though. I haven't met people, especially newlyweds, that viewed marriage as "obeying God" or "following God's plan", but rather, talking about the intense love for the other, how happy they were, how they were excited to spend their life with the other, etc. Their marriage was usually one of love, romance, and companionship.

Ana described being married as "having a permanent roommate." There is also a part where I felt sad for them because they have dinner with a gay man who finally embraces his religion and his homosexuality, and you can see how happy he is, and I sensed that....you know when you are in a relationship that feels awkward, or forced, or rocky, and suddenly see two people who are really in love, and know that that is what you want, and should have? I wondered if they felt that, and if they were saddened, knowing that it was missing from their marriage.

But I respect very much that both was very honest with themselves, and each other. One of the hardest things for them is that they were questioned by both heterosexuals and homosexuals about if they were in a real marriaige. He said, "If I told you that we had wild monkey sex 3 times a day, would that be enough to prove it? And I don't think anything would prove it to someone who already doubts it." And I think that must be really hard, especially when you feel questioned from heterosexuals and homosexuals alike.

 

[Beanieboy]

I believe you may be thinking of the morality of the act rather than any ethics. And because moral questions revolve around right and wrong actions, the question would have to assume some kind of harm or negative resulting from such a union. So, unless you can see some harm (or at least more harm than good) coming from it, it would not be immoral. Can you see any harm?

I think it certainly brings up the issue of "threat to the institute of marriage" argument.

Do I see harm? Personally, no.
They just don't seem to be happy - genuinely happy, but rather, obedient to God, as if believing that being obedient to God (and not all that happy) makes them acceptable to God, or proves their dedication to God.
I don't think that is isolated to this instance. Some married people (especially older generations) often talk about the guilt of enjoying themselves, enjoying sex, etc., and believe that only if they are sad, or sacrificing what they enjoy, or living a harder life, are they worthy of God, because that is what God wants.

I think that God wants us to be happy. It's far easier to love freely when you are happy. People who are not usually wish misery on others in order to have company.

 

[Beanieboy]

I think that it's sick how so many GLBT people feel pressured to become someone who they truly aren't. I've heard nothing but horror stories about people who have gone to so-called "ex-gay" camps. All those sorts of camps end up leading to is self-hatred and suicidal thoughts, and I cannot see how any self-respecting human being (not to mention any person who claims to follow Christ) can support those camps.

I haven't seen the movie, though, so I can't comment on that. Is it available to view online anywhere?

Not yet. I saw it at a place that shows small indi documentaries, and it aired on TV in April, so you can probably rent it.

This is the organziation that the couple work for:
http://www.newdirection.ca/

The documentary takes a much more possitive look at the exgay movement, and gives voice to those going through it who choose to stay with it, as well as those who choose to leave, and why, and shows how everyone still remains friends, even though they make different decisions.

 

[Beanieboy]

Insightful interview with the filmmaker:
http://www.nfb.ca/about/news.php?id=1683

 

[Washington]

I think it certainly brings up the issue of "threat to the institute of marriage" argument.

I've never seen this "argument" consisting of much more than a declaration that it goes against a particular interpretation of Biblical scripture. To my knowledge the reality of this supposed "threat" has never been established. So I still await an explanation of how same sex marriage will have a deleterious affect on traditional marriage. Care to take a stab at it? Anyone??

 

[visionary]

I admire the efforts both have taken to live righteously. I hope that they look forward to their new life rather than back on their old one. It will be the only way that they will even begin to make this new life work.

 

[HannahBanana]

I admire the efforts both have taken to live righteously. I hope that they look forward to their new life rather than back on their old one. It will be the only way that they will even begin to make this new life work.

You actually think that ex-gay camps work? Do you have any proof of that?

 

[visionary]

Who knows what works... thing is... sins are hard to stop... no matter what kind. .. if these people are willing to physically give up their sins by getting into a different environment and working at a new relationship because of their convictions.. I say may the Lord bless them..

 

[MoonlessNight]

Do you think that it is ethical for a gay man and a lesbian to marry each other so that they can obey God?

Well who's to say that marrying is the way that they would obey God?

And I don't mean "well obviously it's God's will that they be in a homosexual relationship."

There's a great variety of options for how to live a life in terms of sexuality. It isn't just "get married or live in sin." They are of course called to chastity, as we all are, though what that means varies from person to person. Cutting to the chase, it is my opinion that for people with a homosexual orientation this would mean general abstinence, i.e. both from sex and marriage. It may sound harsh I suppose, but they aren't the only ones called to a total abstinence from sex (priests and those in monastic orders being the examples that come to mind first).

I do think that it's a bit sad that Christians do present the scenario "either you get married and have good old fashioned heterosexual sex, or you are a sinner." It creates an environment where a person is entirely defined by their sexuality and it's no wonder that it makes it seem like homosexuality is an evil that defines the entirety of a person's worth and personality.

 

[HannahBanana]

Who knows what works... thing is... sins are hard to stop... no matter what kind. .. if these people are willing to physically give up their sins by getting into a different environment and working at a new relationship because of their convictions.. I say may the Lord bless them..

So you don't think that it's psychologically harmful at all for gays to have to pretend to be something they're not (straight, that is)?

 

[visionary]

Homosexuallity has been presented as a given rather than a sin. Sin is not part of the makeup that God intended His children to participate in. Sin does have a habit of so distorting the lives of those it claims that the sinner often identifies him or herself with the sin as if is a part of their makeup.

AAA often has the fellow come up front and say "Hi, I am an alcholic" rather than "Hi, I am a child of God dealing with the addiction". Notice no one ever graduates from AAA either.

Untl we recognise sin for what it is, we are going to identify ourselves with the sin.

 

[HannahBanana]

Homosexuallity has been presented as a given rather than a sin. Sin is not part of the makeup that God intended His children to participate in. Sin does have a habit of so distorting the lives of those it claims that the sinner often identifies him or herself with the sin as if is a part of their makeup.

AAA often has the fellow come up front and say "Hi, I am an alcholic" rather than "Hi, I am a child of God dealing with the addiction". Notice no one ever graduates from AAA either.

Untl we recognise sin for what it is, we are going to identify ourselves with the sin.

I'm a bisexual, and I can tell you for a fact that I never chose to be this way. So are you going to tell me that I'm lying about that, or will you retract your claim that "being GLBT is a choice"?

 

[Beanieboy]

I admire the efforts both have taken to live righteously. I hope that they look forward to their new life rather than back on their old one. It will be the only way that they will even begin to make this new life work.

Do you think that a gay man marrying a lesbian who is a friend, and trying to have a heterosexual marriage (while being homoemotional, as they described it) is a good idea? Do you think it is God's plan for either of them? Do you think it makes God happy?

 

[Beanieboy]

Well who's to say that marrying is the way that they would obey God?

And I don't mean "well obviously it's God's will that they be in a homosexual relationship."

There's a great variety of options for how to live a life in terms of sexuality. It isn't just "get married or live in sin." They are of course called to chastity, as we all are, though what that means varies from person to person. Cutting to the chase, it is my opinion that for people with a homosexual orientation this would mean general abstinence, i.e. both from sex and marriage.

How many heterosexual men do you believe are virgins when they get married?

How many heterosexual men, other than priests (and then again...) live chaste lives?

I could understand that suggestion were there more people that followed Paul, who said:
1 Corinthians 7
7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Most heterosexuals will conveniently ignore this verse, ignore Jesus' celebacy, and usually quote "go forth and multiply" spoken to Noah after the human race was pretty much wiped out in the flood. They will argue that a life in a convent, or priesthood, isn't what they are called for or would be too difficult.

Yet, they are more than willing to prescribe it to a homosexual.

I've never quite understood that. In fact, do women talk about anything else but?
Do people feel disappointed that the couple has decided to give into their burning with lust by marrying, as opposed to joining the nunnery?
Or is it the opposite?