Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

Aman777

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No, just two different texts composed to satisfy two different literary agendas. They don't agree sufficiently either in detail or in style to constitute an intentional framework narrative.

Sure they do. Gen 2:4-18 refer to the THIRD Day when Adam was made. At Gen 2:19 the narrative refers to the 6th Day when living creatures were made from the ground and Adam named them. After all the animals are made, Eve is made on the present 6th Day. Gen 2:22

There are NOT two accounts but instead, DETAILS of the different Days of Creation are revealed. No contradictions. Instead, God's perfection is exposed for all to see. He put His Truth in front of everyone's nose for thousands of years, BEFORE allowing them to see His Truth which is the Truth in EVERY way.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit (Spirit of Truth) upon all flesh:
 
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Kylie

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Hey hey :)

Not yet, surprise! What 2 contradictory creation accounts?

Cheers

Genesis 1 which says God created all the animals first, and then created man and woman at the same time afterwards, and then there's Genesis 2, which says that God created man, then he created animals to be a helper to him, but they didn't work out, so God made woman from his rib.

So was it:

  1. Animals, then man and woman together?
  2. Man, animals, and then woman afterwards?
Is it 1 or is it 2? Or are you going to do as I predicted and resort to "mental gymnastics to explain how they actually agree completely"?
 
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AV1611VET

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Sure. Despite the fact that they are completely different.
About Genesis 2, we like to say that God built the chapel that Adam & Eve got married in.
 
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Kylie

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Those who can understand Genesis knew it thousands of years BEFORE it was announced by today's advanced science. It's proof of God since NO man, thousands of years ago, could have possibly known and written correctly that scientific FACT.

Are you seriously suggesting that people back then couldn't see that life required water? They lived in a bloody desert, they would have known very well that life needs water. They didn't need a God to tell them that!

They were temporary creatures, subject to death, which served as the "common ancestors" of life. They were NOT created by God the Trinity but made to be temporal. They are "His" kinds, made by Jesus.

Let's not start with this trinity thing again. You still haven't actually explained how it's meant to have worked. Jesus, after all, is part of the Trinity, so it was the Trinity that made them. Also, your claim does not agree with current scientific knowledge, so if you expect me to believe it, you'll have to explain why current science is wrong.

LOL. You arrogantly think that I should take the word of an avowed atheist above that of Almighty God? You must live in Disneyland?

So God says you should ignore the things which are inconvenient to you, and pretend that you never saw things which show you are wrong? Is that what they mean when they talk about lying for Jesus?

Amen:
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So why did you just say that the things Jesus made were NOT made by God if Jesus and God are the same thing?
 
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Kylie

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False, since Genesis is mumbo jumbo IF you don't know the difference between His and Their kinds. With your understanding, explain the difference between His and Their kinds.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after His kind, and cattle after Their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind: and God saw that it was good.

As even a child can see, there are TWO kinds and they are different kinds, with specific meanings.

Oh goody, we get to play the pronoun game!

Well, let me point out that the "his" is NOT capitalized, so it is not referring to God's kinds, but to the beast's kinds. So there are not "God's" kinds and "Beast's" kinds. Just beast's kinds.

So the passage is saying: And God made the beast of the earth after the beast's kind, and cattle after the cattle's kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after the creeping thing's kind: and God saw that it was good.
 
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Kylie

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About Genesis 2, we like to say that God built the chapel that Adam & Eve got married in.

Lawrence Berkeley National Labs just turned on a $27 million electron microscope. Its ability to make images to a resolution of half the width of a hydrogen atom makes it the most powerful microscope in the world. Even if I was using this marvel of technology, I still could not find the relevance your post has to the discussion at hand.
 
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AV1611VET

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Even if I was using this marvel of technology, I still could not find the relevance your post has to the discussion at hand.
I'm sorry you don't see it.
 
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the iconoclast

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Or are you going to do as I predicted and resort to "mental gymnastics to explain how they actually agree completely"?

Hey hey you :) hope you are having a great day... ITS FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Anways, I love this terminology mental agility or mental excercises, however it does seems to be a form of ridicule. I assume you suggest that i will give an explanation that will leave you discombobulated.

My mother uses that word alot, God bless her. ;) no fear, nothing too hard here to grasp. :)

Genesis 1 which says God created all the animals first, and then created man and woman at the same time afterwards,

Yes Iam familiar with the Genesis. It is one of my favourite books, if not my favourite. I very much like the Book of Romans, The Gospel of John and the Book of Isaiah as well.

The Bible is a good read and it can be quite fun. There is alot of detective work. :)

Lets move forward, ill hightlight the main scriptures concerned.

1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



You are correct the chronological order is animals then Humans. Lets see what happens next.



1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.




And there... the whole of creation was finished. The chronological order of creation is done! The last things God did was create animals, create men and have a well deserved rest. My compliments to the Artist.

Now lets go a little bit further. Man i love Genesis!




2:5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;




So even though God created these plants and every living thing, it does not say that the earth was populated by such things yet. We have a creation of men, on earth going forth and multiplying so far. Adam and eve were immortal until the fall of Adam. These men could be immortal until the fall.

Or is the beginning of chapter 2 the start of adam and eve, and the garden of eden. The verse says there is no man to tend the ground. The ground could elude to the place where adam was.

Lets move on shall we :)




6 but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




Here is where it gets interesting. Are we following a chronological order or are we revisiting the 6th day?

You are following a chronological, we want to be literal?

Chapter 2 suggests we have entered the origin for the garden of eden. It would appear that adam was a creation different to the 6th day creation.

We have finished placing the jewel (earth) in its setting and have completed the final touches. Ps it may seem the earth was not created during these 7 days of creation.

Which order do you subscribe to the chronological order or an order that goes in different directions - ie incontext to the verses you mention - is chapter 2 a recap or the next step?

and then there's Genesis 2, which says that God created man, then he created animals to be a helper to him, but they didn't work out, so God made woman from his rib.

Now we look at genesis 2:19.

Genesis 2:19
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.



Have you considered that the statement "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky." Is merely suggesting "now you remember those animals God created, well God brings them to Adam to name them before putting them on the earth".

Remember no plants, no rain until the mist came. These animals were created but not implemented yet. :)


So was it:


Animals, then man and woman together?

Man, animals, and then woman afterwards?

Is it 1 or is it 2?

Well lets reason together kylie, you and i on the case, we cannot fail.

What u think about my post? We will need some back and forth i think?

Cheers. I really love where our conversation is going. :)
 
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AV1611VET

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Genesis 2:19

Now the LORD God had formed ...
I predict you're going to get KJVO'd here.

Nothing turns an allegorist into a literalist faster than a passage that can be used to make the Bible look bad.

Just wait. ;)
 
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Aman777

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Are you seriously suggesting that people back then couldn't see that life required water? They lived in a bloody desert, they would have known very well that life needs water. They didn't need a God to tell them that!

Amen. God the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and MUST tell the scientific, historic, and every other discovered Truth, BEFORE that Truth is discovered. He told us the absolute Truth 3k years ago, that "every living creature that moveth" came forth from Water at God's command, on the 5th Day. It's testable proof of the literal God. It's God's message to the people of the last days. Daniel 12:4

Let's not start with this trinity thing again. You still haven't actually explained how it's meant to have worked. Jesus, after all, is part of the Trinity, so it was the Trinity that made them. Also, your claim does not agree with current scientific knowledge, so if you expect me to believe it, you'll have to explain why current science is wrong.

Sure, but I agree with Science. My disagreement is with the false ToE, which is NOT true Science, but instead, is a false assumption of people who reject the Truth of Noah's flood. Scripture calls them the Scoffers of the last days. 2 Peter 3:3. They don't know that Adam's entire firmament, which God called Heaven, was totally destroyed in the flood. 2 Peter 3:6

These Scoffers/evolutionists have falsely assumed that Humans must have evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, instead of coming to our planet in an Ark. They are "willingly ignorant" that Noah brought the first Humans (Adam's descendants) to this planet of apes. In the end, their blasphemous view will be rejected by God's Truth.

So God says you should ignore the things which are inconvenient to you, and pretend that you never saw things which show you are wrong? Is that what they mean when they talk about lying for Jesus?

So why did you just say that the things Jesus made were NOT made by God if Jesus and God are the same thing?
 
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Aman777

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Oh goody, we get to play the pronoun game!

Well, let me point out that the "his" is NOT capitalized, so it is not referring to God's kinds, but to the beast's kinds. So there are not "God's" kinds and "Beast's" kinds. Just beast's kinds.

False, since it doesn't agree with Scripture:

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after His kind, and cattle after Their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind: and God saw that it was good.


So the passage is saying: And God made the beast of the earth after the beast's kind, and cattle after the cattle's kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after the creeping thing's kind: and God saw that it was good.

Who made beasts? It was Lord God, which in Hebrew is YHWH/Jesus.
Who made creeping things? It was Lord God, which in Hebrew is YHWH, who came to Earth as the man, Jesus Christ. Cattle were made by Jesus AND God the Trinity (Their kind). Does this hold true in Scripture? Of course. Here is Scripture thousands of years later.

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after His kind, and all the cattle after Their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind, and every fowl after His kind, every bird of every sort.

Did you notice the ALL the cattle after Their kind? If so, please explain. Does your view hold true to Scripture?
 
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Kylie

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You are correct the chronological order is animals then Humans. Lets see what happens next.

Glad we agree on that.

2:5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;

So even though God created these plants and every living thing, it does not say that the earth was populated by such things yet. We have a creation of men, on earth going forth and multiplying so far. Adam and eve were immortal until the fall of Adam. These men could be immortal until the fall.

Irrelevant. We are talking about animals and man, not plants.

Or is the beginning of chapter 2 the start of adam and eve, and the garden of eden. The verse says there is no man to tend the ground. The ground could elude to the place where adam was.

Speculation.

6 but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is where it gets interesting. Are we following a chronological order or are we revisiting the 6th day?

You are following a chronological, we want to be literal?

It honestly doesn't matter. The Bibler makes it clear. God creates Man and then says, "It isn't good that he's alone, I'll make a companion for him." This makes no sense unless Man had been created and animals were not yet created at the time God said this.

Chapter 2 suggests we have entered the origin for the garden of eden. It would appear that adam was a creation different to the 6th day creation.

What are you talking about, "entered the origin"?

And is Adam NOT the human that God created in Gen 1:27?

Now we look at genesis 2:19.

Genesis 2:19
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Have you considered that the statement "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky." Is merely suggesting "now you remember those animals God created, well God brings them to Adam to name them before putting them on the earth".

Except Gen 2:18 makes it clear that God sees Adam by himself and thinks, "He looks lonely, I'll make something to keep him company." God does NOT say, "He looks lonely, I'll take some of those animals I made earlier and see if they'll cheer him up."

Remember no plants, no rain until the mist came. These animals were created but not implemented yet. :)

Created but not implemented. There we go with the mental gymnastics...

Well lets reason together kylie, you and i on the case, we cannot fail.

Yeah, don't try to make it like we're partners in the police force, working together to figure out what really happened. We aren't.

What u think about my post? We will need some back and forth i think?

I think you are so intent on seeing the Bible as being completely accurate that when you see contradictions you do whatever it takes to come up with some explanation to make it work rather than just admit the simple fact that the Bible is just not accurate.
 
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Kylie

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Amen. God the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and MUST tell the scientific, historic, and every other discovered Truth, BEFORE that Truth is discovered. He told us the absolute Truth 3k years ago, that "every living creature that moveth" came forth from Water at God's command, on the 5th Day. It's testable proof of the literal God. It's God's message to the people of the last days. Daniel 12:4

Wow. You ignore what I say and spout a whole lot of propaganda.

Sure, but I agree with Science. My disagreement is with the false ToE, which is NOT true Science, but instead, is a false assumption of people who reject the Truth of Noah's flood. Scripture calls them the Scoffers of the last days. 2 Peter 3:3. They don't know that Adam's entire firmament, which God called Heaven, was totally destroyed in the flood. 2 Peter 3:6

These Scoffers/evolutionists have falsely assumed that Humans must have evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, instead of coming to our planet in an Ark. They are "willingly ignorant" that Noah brought the first Humans (Adam's descendants) to this planet of apes. In the end, their blasphemous view will be rejected by God's Truth.

Once again, you say nothing of any value. Just a dismissal of things you don't like as being false, with absolutely no justification as to why they are false.

You are not convincing at all.

And you apparently forgot to reply to the last two things I said as well, since you quoted them and didn't say anything.
 
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Kylie

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False, since it doesn't agree with Scripture:

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after His kind, and cattle after Their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind: and God saw that it was good.


You are aware, I hope, that the pronoun HIS doesn't exclusively apply to God.

And when it IS applied to God, it is generally capitalized. Since the word HIS is NOT capitalized in those passages, it doesn't apply to God.

This is not a difficult concept.

Who made beasts? It was Lord God, which in Hebrew is YHWH/Jesus.
Who made creeping things? It was Lord God, which in Hebrew is YHWH, who came to Earth as the man, Jesus Christ. Cattle were made by Jesus AND God the Trinity (Their kind). Does this hold true in Scripture? Of course. Here is Scripture thousands of years later.

Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after His kind, and all the cattle after Their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after His kind, and every fowl after His kind, every bird of every sort.

Did you notice the ALL the cattle after Their kind? If so, please explain. Does your view hold true to Scripture?

You seem to think I am not seeing your point. You are wrong. I do see exactly what you are trying to say. I am just saying that I think your point is incorrect. Repeating the same point I have already discounted is not going to make it more convincing.

And you going in to add capital letters to "his" when that word is not capitalized in the actual Bible just makes you look deceptive.


no caps.jpg


See? No capitalisation of "his" in the passage according to the link that you provided.
 
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the iconoclast

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Glad we agree on that.

Hey hey kylie. :)

So we have a chronological order. We both agree.

Irrelevant. We are talking about animals and man, not plants

Yes we are talking animals and man.

But

2:5 And no plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Jehovah God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;

So even though God created these plants and every living thing, it does not say that the earth was populated by such things yet.

No plants would equal no food for animals. No man to till.

It seems as if God did the prep work and It wasnt until the earth was watered that we had vegetation and flora?

Speculation

Yes i did form a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. I wasnt there! I formed the theory from reading the chronological order of thins. Creation qas done, now we are at the garden of eden.

What u think?

It honestly doesn't matter. The Bibler makes it clear. God creates Man and then says, "It isn't good that he's alone, I'll make a companion for him." This makes no sense unless Man had been created and animals were not yet created at the time God said this.

Yes it does matter. Do we follow a chronological order or is it a revisit to the 6th day? It is called context.

Context is important or it becomes quote mining on your behalf.

Quote mining (also contextomy) is the fallacious tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint or to make the comments of an opponent seem more extreme or hold positions they don't in order to make their positions easier to refute or demonize.[2] It's a way of lying.

How are you not guilty of quote mining?


What are you talking about, "entered the origin"?


And is Adam NOT the human that God created in Gen 1:27?

The start of Chapter 2 is about the garden of eden. Do you disagree? Why is it not the start of the garden of eden? Show me?

The 6th day creation got told to go forth and multiply, chapter 2 man got told to stay put and not eat from the tree. What you think? Could there be 2 separate creations, one created on the 6th day and one created after the 7 days of completion?

Except Gen 2:18 makes it clear that God sees Adam by himself and thinks, "He looks lonely, I'll make something to keep him company." God does NOT say, "He looks lonely, I'll take some of those animals I made earlier and see if they'll cheer him up

Where does it say in 2:18 god created those animals on the spot. Creation is over, which are you following. Chronological or are we revisiting the 6th day?

Created but not implemented. There we go with the mental gymnastics..

Really? Does the word implement cause you confusion? Is that word mental gymnastics for you?

Yeah, don't try to make it like we're partners in the police force, working together to figure out what really happened. We aren't.

We could be, i want us to figure it out together. :)

We are not finished yet. We need more back and forth then effort you have put in so far!

I think you are so intent on seeing the Bible as being completely accurate that when you see contradictions you do whatever it takes to come up with some explanation to make it work rather than just admit the simple fact that the Bible is just not accurate

Well 2 can play at that game. I think you are so intent on the bible being erroneous you will look for anything to disregard it and pour scorn. You see something you think is a contradiction and run with it, without knowing context.

You are guilty of quote mining to help your confirmation bias.

Quote mining (also contextomy) is the fallacious tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint or to make the comments of an opponent seem more extreme or hold positions they don't in order to make their positions easier to refute or demonize.[2] It's a way of lying.



Cheers.
 
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Aman777

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It honestly doesn't matter. The Bibler makes it clear. God creates Man and then says, "It isn't good that he's alone, I'll make a companion for him." This makes no sense unless Man had been created and animals were not yet created at the time God said this.

Maybe I can help? Adam was "formed" like a Potter molds clay and given life by YHWH/Jesus on the 3rd Day BEFORE plants, herbs and rain, according to Genesis 2:4-7

Adam was "created in God's Image" or born again Spiritually on the present 6th Day, the Day of Salvation, according to Jesus. 2Co 6:2

Adam and Eve were born again Spiritually at the SAME time and Eve was NOT made from Adam's rib until the present 6th Day. Gen 2:22

It takes the AGREEMENT of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to "create" an Eternal Being, a Christian. Genesis 1:26 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16 Amen?
 
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