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evolution&dogs, book 2

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by billwald, May 7, 2007.

  1. billwald

    billwald Contributor

    +28
    Christian
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    The point should be that the 800 breeds of dogs don't have anything to do with evolution. Domestic animals are bred and not permitted to evolve - just as people are now self-breeding and no longer evolve.
     
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  2. XTE

    XTE Well-Known Member

    +106
    Atheist
    US-Others
    OPer clearly has no idea what he is talking about....

    let's all pretend we have knowledge of things we don't, it's fun and builds ourselves up.

    Give me a break! Did I actually just read that?
     
  3. Grengor

    Grengor GrenAce

    +50
    Deist
    US-Republican
    Those 800 breeds of dogs are all seperate species. They changed over time to become what they are today. How exactly is this not evolution?

    And I cant even make sense of your last sentence. Could you please clarify?
     
  4. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    Dog breeds are not separate species, but they are examples of evolution: evolution in response to intense selective pressure imposed by humans. Evolution occurs within species as well as causing new species.
     
  5. Steezie

    Steezie Guest

    +0
    Dog breeds ARE separate species by strict biological definitions.

    Its much the same as the relation between donkeys and horses. They are in the same genus and family however they are distinctly different species.

    These different breeds of dogs rose from human breeding.
     
  6. Key

    Key The Opener of Locks

    +153
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    I love the tone here, as always, and if I have a tone of the same kind towards Evolutionist they get all upset, Humm, I guess the Golden Rule does not apply in this form.

    Seems, treating people like idiots is the common flavor of this form, so, when I responded in that manner, IE: I treated Evolutionist like they are idiots, they get upset, I wonder why really, I mean after all, treat others as you would like to be treated, if you like to act condescending to others, then you must enjoy being treated in an equal manner, I'll do my best to oblige.

    Yes, we all know that Species are what ever we decide to call it as the flavor of the month.

    Yes, Dogs are not Evolution, but simple Genetic Drift, and the affects of the Designer in the Scheme of things.

    Now you call can attack me as well, and tell me how much I don't know about evolution, and maybe I might even here a few bits like "I need to be guided by the Genetic Spirits to fully grasp the Theory".. or some such.

    So, Separate Species are life forms that do not breed with each other, by affect of several means, boundaries, desire, inability, to name the major ones.

    So, which of these are affecting Dogs? Care to enlighten me?

    God Bless

    Key.
     
  7. Steezie

    Steezie Guest

    +0
    Key, is English your first language? Because that was nigh-uppon un-intelligible, but Ill try and salvage what I can and respond

    You attribute 800 different varieties of dog to genetic drift? Please tell me you're kidding.

    After that last statement you made...

    Im guessing you're asking what the barriers are for certain species of dogs to breed.

    Dog breeds havent reached the point where two different breeds are genetically incompatible, they will in future, but as of yet that hasnt happened. The biggest barrier is size, a Great Dane cannot mate with a Chihuahua. It just cant happen naturally. The only way it can happen is if a human being uses artificial insemination.
     
  8. Key

    Key The Opener of Locks

    +153
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    You assume this.

    God Bless

    Key.
     
  9. arunma

    arunma Flaming Calvinist

    +781
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Yes, I see your point. Threads like this make me feel that people who aren't biologists (whether creationist or "evolutionist") really shouldn't talk about evolution.
     
  10. Steezie

    Steezie Guest

    +0
    No we KNOW that. Its scientific and objective fact. One of the things that happen with two species that split (Man and apes for example) is the in-ability to cross-breed after a length of time.
     
  11. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    I'm sorry, but all domestic dogs are in fact classified by biologists as a single species, Canis familiaris. If not prevented by humans, dogs will mate freely outside their breed, causing massive gene flow across breed lines; the breeds would, in fact, quickly disappear if they were not artificially maintained by humans. That means they are not species.

    Horses and donkeys are separate species because they seldom hybridize, and the hybrids that are produced are of greatly reduced fertility. As a result, there is very little gene flow between the populations, with or without human intervention.

    Certainly -- that's why they're called "breeds".
     
  12. fromdownunder

    fromdownunder Senior Member

    944
    +74
    Atheist
    The idea of a male Great Dane breeding naturally with a female Chihuahua (or vica versa) totally boggles my mind.

    So, while technically and within the rules of biology, they are still the same genus (species), reality suggests that they are not.

    I am pretty certain that the day will come when certain breeds of dogs will not be able to reproduce viable and fertile offspring from other breeds, certainly not in my lifetime, but it will happen. It's called evolution.

    Norm
     
  13. Pesto

    Pesto Senior Member

    957
    +26
    Atheist
    Single
    They are not distinct species. One of the criteria of distinct species is that they cannot produce viable offspring. Frumious Bandersnatch was very astute in pointing out that dogs would be best classified as a ring species.
     
  14. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

    +5,147
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    If all dogs besides chihuahuas and great danes disappeared tomorrow, the survivors would very likely form two species. As it is, however, there are many intermediate sizes of dog that permit gene flow throughout all breeds.

    The reality that matters is whether they form permanently separate genetic populations as far as evolution is considered.


    Certainly possible.
     
  15. Pesto

    Pesto Senior Member

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    We don't know that it will happen. It certainly could and is well on its way, but dogs could easily be bred back to on single interbreeding population, ignoring the obvious resistance among pure-bred enthusiasts.
     
  16. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,935
    Agnostic
    Would you consider dogs to be a ring species?
     
  17. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    I would consider them similar to a ring species but not actually to be one; ring species usually refers to a geographic distribution of interbreeding populations that overlaps in one place. But defining species is not my field.
     
  18. Key

    Key The Opener of Locks

    +153
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Because Steezie seems to be unable to grasp any post of mine that might consist beyond one line, I am thus limited at what type of response I can provide.

    Again, you assume this.

    Maybe, but it is still possible, and they will make every effort to try. If a female dog goes into heat, any dog, regardless of size difference will try to mate with the heated dog.

    And, note that if a female Great Dane were to lay down, a male chihuahua could in effect mount and even impregnate the female dog.

    They are the same Species, unless you are to imply that Humans of different skin color would have been separate species in the 1800, because of cultural stress to not breed with each other.

    Again, this is an assumption and don't you think something like 6000 years of dog and horse breeding, would have generated this effect by now? The irony is, it has not, nor do I believe based on the evidence I have that it will ever happen.

    However I shall leave the door open, but, also respect that so far the evidence is against it.

    God Bless

    Key
     
  19. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,935
    Agnostic
    As soon as you start presenting evidence instead of complaints you will have a point.

    The definition for living species has never changed. What is difficult is determining if two populations fit the definition. Speciation is about gene flow. If there is no gene flow between two populations when given a chance then they are, by definition, separate species. As you can guess, it is rather difficult to track the extent to which two groups interbreed.

    Dogs are under extreme selection, not genetic drift. While artificial selection may be more strict than that found in nature it is not different in kind. Humans selecting dogs for their fur color is no different than elk selecting wolves for speed.

    Separate species are two POPULATIONS that do not interbreed. Infertility between two individuals may not indicate speciation of the larger group.

    Size. Some dog breeds are physically incompatible.

    An even stranger situation is english bulldogs. They have been bred for such large heads and narrow hips that some pups can not be birthed naturally. They must be extracted by caesarian. This breed is extremely dependent on humans for their survival.
     
  20. billwald

    billwald Contributor

    +28
    Christian
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    The other interesting matter - why are there several breeds of gulls all living in the same area? Are they all racist? Why are domesticated breeds of animals - including humans - the only ones who cross breed?
     
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