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Evolution and the Bible

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by MSBS, Nov 27, 2002.

  1. MSBS

    MSBS Well-Known Member

    +89
    Agnostic
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I recently came across this quote:

    from:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/2/part11.html

    The man that said it is a Christian, but obviously believes in evolution.

    For you evolution deniers, you have to disagree with the point this man is making, so I ask you, where is your disagreement? How is modern young earth creationism different from the old geocentrism or flat earthism? Why aren't the parts of the bible that imply a flat earth or that the earth is the center of the universe to be taken literally, yet 6 literal days of creation is?
     
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  2. LiveFreeOrDie

    LiveFreeOrDie Science Officer

    983
    +1
    Bumpity bump.
     
  3. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

    +3
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    yes bump, bump, bump...
     
  4. sampo

    sampo Think for yourself!!

    409
    +4
    Atheist
    [crickets chirping]
     
  5. Matthew

    Matthew Member

    154
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    Hmmm. Appears that he doesn't know his history.

    What nice fiction.


    Do you know what. It appears that nice sounding speeches are all that you can come up with.

    Begging the question, appeal to emotion (let's not be like those bad people). No argument. Well, If this is the state of your evidence...

    I could say I am a car. Does it make me one?

    Appears that you are learning your fallacies well. Begging the question appears to quite popular.

    Which point (I thought that points were made only in arguments).

    First, there is Biblical evidence for one and not for the other. Second, "flat earthism" was never a widespread belief in the church, but a young age of the earth was (until about the 1700's-1800's). Third, geocentrism confused the idea of "preferred frame of reference" with "absolute frame of reference". Fourth, geocentrism never actually had Biblical support.

    Which parts?

    The idea that the earth is close to the center of the universe is taken literally. (By the way, according to the Bing Bang Theory, the universe has no center.)
     
  6. MSBS

    MSBS Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you have no answer and prefer to throw up a smoke screen. I'm beginning to despair of ever actually getting more then empty rhetoric out of YECs.
     
  7. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Married
    The Bible uses the word circle quite a bit, but the main word to study is circuit.(strongs 2329, 5437, 8622) http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/  This means to encompass, & it means revolution, revolve, spin, swirl or rotate.  For something to run it's course or it's circuit. To follow it's appointed path.

    Other secondary words you will find are: sphere, compass, encompass, dome, bow and so forth. No where does the Bible use any language that would imply that the earth is flat.

    Back when science believed in a flat earth, they use to use that as a arguement against the Bible, that the Bible said the earth was a ball or sphere, when clearly science knew the earth was flat.

    The Bible clearly talks about the end of a year, being the end of a circuit. A circuit meaning to encompass or go around. A careful study of the Bible would show that the earth spins, rotates or swirls as it makes it's circuit or follows it's appointed path around the sun.

    Psalm 19:1  A Psalm of David.
        The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.


     
     
  8. platzapS

    platzapS Expanding Mind

    +285
    Humanist
    i've heard this term a lot and i'm wondering--what is "begging the question"? it would be greatly appreciated if someone would reply.
     
  9. MSBS

    MSBS Well-Known Member

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    You know, I was asking a serious question John, I'd appriciate your comments without the insults.
     
  10. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Ok, I edited out that comment.

    Still, like I said, do a study on the word "circuit". That is the key word used in the Bible to answer your question. When you understand the meaning of the word "circuit" that will help you to understand the teaching in the Bible on this subject.
     
  11. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    To beg the question means either:

    1.) to assume the point asked in the question

    2.) to evade the point at issue or

    3.) to lead on to another logically connected point

    It usually nowadays means the last one.
     
  12. MSBS

    MSBS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the edit.

    I think you are missing the point a little. Mr. Schweitzer, nor I by quoting him, are saying that the bible insists on a flat earth or geocentric universe. Matthew's caustic comments aside, the point being made is that in the past scriptural passages have been interpreted that way. Obviously you disagree with the interpretation that others have made in reguards to these things, and that is what is being pointed out in the quotation.

    Is it possible that some people are running into a similar mistake currently with main stream science? If not, why not? Why is this thing so clear to you, yet other Christians interpret things differently? I've run into people of various schools of thought on the issue.

    Christians that go along with what science has to say about the age of the universe and the origin of species, theistic evolutionists, old earth creationists, IDers, and young earth creationists. Not just christians, but Christians (capitol C, born again, inerrant bible) that have no problem with evolution, yet people like Matthew say they aren't "real" Christians for some reason. Real, intellegent, thoughtful people, that say they are born again in Christ, also believe in evolution.

    Tell me why they are wrong and you are right. I'd really like to know where you are comming from, because I have really been unable to understand the YEC point of view.
     
  13. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

    +3
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    US-Democrat
    I have a question I don't know if anyone knows this but I am going to ask anyway. I was wondering if it is only conservatives that believe in YEC and that evolution is flase?
     
  14. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Basically. If you are not conservative you have no reason to think Evolution is false because you likely do not believe in an inerrant Bible (among other things).

    But I agree with the OP entirely, and it's one reason why I've basically stopped arguing this evolution vs. creation thing. In time, perhaps 200 years, perhaps only 50, Evolution and the old earth will be accepted by everyone, including conservative Christians. People will laugh at the interpretations Christians of this day made of Genesis, the same way Christians now (including in this thread!) scoff at the geocentric interpretations of the Middle Ages.

    I saw an interesting article on religioustolerance.org that described a 7-step cycle that every controversial scientific theory goes through. I don't have time to look it up now, but it's interesting to look at.

    -Chris
     
  15. Matthew

    Matthew Member

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    First, not everyone who disagrees with evolution is a YEC, a Christian or a conservative. Examples include Michael Behe, William Dembski, and Phillip Johnson, all who believe in an old earth.

    Second, I was simply saying that that quote you mentioned did not give an argument. I was not giving an argument of my own.

    Begging the question is an informal fallacy of logic. It means (1). All other uses of the phrase show that one is not familiar with the meaning of the phrase.

    They have, but not by the majority of the church. On the other hand, a young earth interpretation has been been in the majority of the church until recently.

    But is their difference of opinion based on the text, or on the assumption of evolution?

    Different Christians happen to believe that the text says different things. But my contention is that those who believe that the text allows for an old earth are not basing their view on what the text actually does say. Their reasoning goes somewhat like this:

    1) Evolution is true

    2) Christianity is true

    Therefore, Christianity must allow for evolution.

    Actually, those that believe in an inerrant Bible, for the most part will disagree with at least some of evolution, usually common ancestry. And over half of them will either be indifferent to the age of earth, or believe that it is young.

    It is possible that they are "saved". But that does not make their ideas "Christian". Neither does it mean that they have actually investigated the issue, or their belief on it.

    The Hebrew of Genesis 1, 5, 11 combined allows for a young earth position only. And this is recognized by good Hebrew scholars, even those who are not believers.
     
  16. wb3

    wb3 Live like you will die tommorrow and learn like yo

    151
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    Christian
    Job 9:1-10:1
    CHAPTER 9

    1 Then Job replied:
    2 "Indeed, I know that this is true. But how can a mortal be righteous before God?
    3 Though one wished to dispute with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.
    4 His wisdom is profound, his power is vast. Who has resisted him and come out unscathed?
    5 He moves mountains without their knowing it and overturns them in his anger.
    6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.
    7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars.
    8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.
    9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
    10 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted.
    11 When he passes me, I cannot see him; when he goes by, I cannot perceive him.
    12 If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'
    13 God does not restrain his anger; even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet.
    14 "How then can I dispute with him? How can I find words to argue with him?
    15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
    16 Even if I summoned him and he responded, I do not believe he would give me a hearing.
    17 He would crush me with a storm and multiply my wounds for no reason.
    18 He would not let me regain my breath but would overwhelm me with misery.
    19 If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty! And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him?
    20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
    21 "Although I am blameless, I have no concern for myself; I despise my own life.
    22 It is all the same; that is why I say, 'He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.'
    23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.
    24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?
    25 "My days are swifter than a runner; they fly away without a glimpse of joy.
    26 They skim past like boats of papyrus, like eagles swooping down on their prey.
    27 If I say, 'I will forget my complaint, I will change my expression, and smile,'
    28 I still dread all my sufferings, for I know you will not hold me innocent.
    29 Since I am already found guilty, why should I struggle in vain?
    30 Even if I washed myself with soap and my hands with washing soda,
    31 you would plunge me into a slime pit so that even my clothes would detest me.
    32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court.
    33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both,
    34 someone to remove God's rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more.
    35 Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

    CHAPTER 10

    (NIV)

    Job 9:1-10:1

    CHAPTER 9

    1 Then Job answered and said,
    2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
    3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
    4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
    5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
    6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
    7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
    8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
    9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
    10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
    11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
    12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
    13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
    14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
    15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
    16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
    17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
    18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
    19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
    20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
    21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
    22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
    23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
    24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
    25 Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away, they see no good.
    26 They are passed away as the swift ships: as the eagle that hasteth to the prey.
    27 If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and comfort myself:
    28 I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.
    29 If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain?
    30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
    31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
    32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
    33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
    34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
    35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

    CHAPTER 10

    (KJV)


    Two versions of Job 9. I fail to see where it says anything to contradict science. Please tell me if I am missing it. See now YOU know what the 9th chapter of Job says.
     
  17. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    The YEC people are very good friends of mine. Their point of view is that Evolutionists have hijacked science and they are using it as a weapon against those who believe in God and Creation.

    Perhaps Thomas Edison said it best: "Genius is one percent inspiration, and ninety-nine percent perspiration." Now I am sure that his formula is off, I would say that 3% inspiration and 97% perspiration is a better formula to work with. The problem today is that far to many people want to use a formula of 3% perspiration and 97% inspiration and it just does not work to really accomplish anything.

     
     
  18. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

    +3
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    Well evolution has nothing to do with GOD or Creation of the bible. So it can't be used as a weapon.
     
  19. Matthew

    Matthew Member

    154
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    It should be quite obvious that ID and evolution are exclusive. Also, YEC and OEC are also exclusive. If both ID and YEC are described in the Bible, then evolution can be used as a weapon against it.

    Close. Their view is that evolutionists are not doing science, aren't willing to acknowledge God, and are claiming that their particular religion (naturalism) is really not a religion. Amoung other things. (By the way "hijacked" is a good word.)



    I have to agree. I would also add that people seem willing to agree with whatever they hear from authority figures. Their opinion really isn't based on hard work.
     
  20. MSBS

    MSBS Well-Known Member

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    I have a good friend that is a YEC to....but the only thing we have ever settled on is that we shouldn't talk about this subject. I guess actually being a biologist and working with "evolutionists" I can't get past how ludicrous the "hijack" argument is. No one I know ever uses evolution against Christians-- the only place I ever get exposed to that kind of stuff is on the Internet. Scientists go to work and do research and for most of them religion is a personal thing just like at any other work place. For this "hijack" to be true, it requires such a vast and all consuming conspiracy among such a diverse group of people the logistics of it become impossible. I really can't give it any more credit than the UFO, hoaxed moon landings, flat earthers, or any other of the many rediculous conspiracy theories out there. I give someone that subscribes to YEC a little more credit for intelligence than someone that is a big UFO believer, just based on the religious aspects of the situation-- but I still think the belief itself is somewhat irrational. It's not that I'm against Christians, I just can't deal with the illogic and denial that goes with it, and YECs are far more emotional about this than people on the other side of the argument.

    Based on the arguments online I think many of you have a skewed view of scientists-- most invest no energy at all into this debate, looking at YEC ideas as nothing more than being the product of crackpots and not being worthy of even being addressed. They don't come to work and think "today I'll prove evolution so I can attack Christians" or anything else of the sort. Evolution is accepted because the data supports it. Some of the details have been debated, sometimes heatedly, in scientific circles, but the foundations of the theory (common descent, descent with modification, etc.) are well supported and a variety of mechanisms at the cellular and molecular levels have been elucidated since Darwin that match what was predicted by theory. It isn't a theory in crisis and very few people equipped with the education and theoretical underpinnings to understand it, disagree with it. There aren't a bunch of druids worshiping trees out there making up a bunch of stuff in order to attack Christianity.

    Ultimately, I still haven't seen any unambiguous support for YEC coming from the bible. Every passage seems to have a thousand interpretations-- every Christian seems to see things slightly different than every other Christian. I'm far from being anti-christain, and my appoligies to anyone offended by my assesment of YEC.
     
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