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~~~evil~~~:<

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by sinning machine, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Quite frankly, I find such faulty logic repugnant. It insults my master. God cannot and would not use Evil in any way. In His interactions with yours truly, I have perceived nothing the slightest bit screwy or evil. He is the personification of love and wisdom...Israel and her people suffered sorely because they went astray. Suffering sorely is the natural consequence becoming evil. Put another way, Israel wandered away from God and His protection. She then became just another nation in the world system....
     
  2. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Amen :thumbsup:
     
  3. sinning machine

    sinning machine Guest

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    ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES IN ALL CHRISTENDOM

    ("How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer")

    Theologians have been teaching for centuries now that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us a perfect explanation of how a perfect Lucifer changed himself into Lucifer the Devil.


    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa. 14:-12-14).


    "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God; Thou seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you"

    "By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, and they may behold you" (Ezek. 28:12-17).

    This, we are told, is a perfect description of how perfect Lucifer, a shining light bringing archangel/cherub, became Satan the Devil. Is there any truth to this theory?

    This theory suits Satan just fine, and more so, it fits Christendom even &#8216;finer.&#8217; With this theory (or more correctly &#8216;hypothesis&#8217;), Christendom has the perfect solution to how they can justifiably consign billions of humans to an eternal lake of fire. With their "free will" firmly established in their deceived minds, Christendom can now teach the world that Satan CHOSE to do evil and has not repented, and most of mankind has also CHOSEN to do evil and not repent, therefore they are all thrown into an eternal lake burning with fire, and God is not the least bit responsible.

    Prepare yourself for a revelation: Satan was never perfect and then decided by his phantom free will to become a devil, neither has a single human started out perfect and then decided by his free will to become a sinner! But the Scriptural truth of these matters will set us free from centuries of unscriptural traditions. The problem with this "Lucifer fell" theory is twofold: poor translation and poor interpretation.

    First Isaiah 14. To whom is God addressing Himself in these verses we quoted above?


    "That you shall take up this proverb against the KING OF BABYLON..." (Ver. 4)

    God is speaking of and to and about, "the King of Babylon," not Lucifer, not Satan, not a cherub. And God tells us the end of this man&#8217;s reign:


    "Your pomp is brought down to the grave [Satan never died or was put in a grave], and the noise of your viols [harps or lutes]: the worm [or maggots] is spread under you [can maggots eat a spirit body], and the worms cover you" (Ver. 11).

    But is not this "Lucifer" of verse 14 Satan the Devil?

    This next verse is where theologians believe God stops speaking of the King of Babylon and begins speaking of the origin of Satan. What, does the end of the King of Babylon have to do with the beginning of Satan?


    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations"! (Ver. 12).

    Notice that back in verse 4 God says to take up this proverb against the "king of Babylon." Next let&#8217;s pick up this proverb in verse 10 after all the "trees" (different people which feared the king), are at rest because of the king&#8217;s demise, and see if this "Lucifer theory" fits into these verses without doing irreparable damage to the kings English:


    "All they shall speak and say unto thee [king of Babylon], Art thou [king of Babylon] also become weak as we? Art thou [king of Babylon] become like unto us [mere mortals and not gods from heaven]. Thy [king of Babylon] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy [king of Babylon] viols: the worm is spread under thee [king of Babylon], and the worms cover thee [king of Babylon]. How art thou [king of Babylon] fallen from heaven, O Lucifer&#8230;"?!?

    How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into "Lucifer" in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that "Lucifer" is a proper name for Satan?

    So just where did this proper name, "Lucifer" suddenly appear from in the middle of this sentence? Is "Lucifer" a proper name? Is it even a noun? Is "Lucifer" another name for the king of Babylon? Is "Lucifer" an English word? Is there a Hebrew word that can be translated "Lucifer?"



    From my American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).

    The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin."

    And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).

    There it is! Lucifer is the &#8216;chemical bioluminescence&#8217; in the cells of FIREFLIES! WOW! With that in mind, we should all sleep better tonight.

    First, just who was it that fell from heaven, and does the phrase "fallen from heaven" prove that this person had to have been in God&#8217;s throne room, or at least in interstellar space in order for him to "fall from heaven" therefore proving that this must be a spirit being only? No, of course not. It is a figure of speech. Here is proof from none other than Jesus:


    "And you, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down [from heaven] to hell [Gk: hades]" (Luke 10:15).

    So here we have a whole city being thrown down from heaven to hades, their grave. And so it is with the King of Babylon whose "pomp is brought down to the grave" (Isa. 14:11). These two Scriptures are exact parallel thoughts.

    Now then, back to "lucifer." Just what is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word Lucifer? It is very interesting. All of you with a Strong&#8217;s Concordance, look up this word Lucifer. Right after the word Lucifer we are given a definition before we ever go to the Dictionary to find the meaning. Here is what you will find: Lucifer (lu&#8217;sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon.

    We are told that the word in question is Strong&#8217;s #1966 which is heylel, from 1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--Lucifer.

    What a web of deceit is woven in this "light-bringing-brightness-morning-star-Lucifer" theory. This word "Lucifer" appears no other place in Scripture. Was Satan ever spoken of as a "light-bringing perfect archangel"? No. What saith the Scriptures?


    "And no marvel; for Satan himself is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14).

    Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" Ver 13, that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan appears as an angel of light to the world; he is transformed into an angel of light, but it is an illusion, it is not true, it is a deception!

    Paul expels any such theory that Satan knows anything about "light":

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against power, against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS of this world" (Eph. 6:12).


    So what is this heylel/halal of Isa. 14:12? Here is the problem&#8212;too many translations of previous translations without checking the Hebrew manuscripts first.

    Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

    The Latin and the Greek, as well as a supposed form of a "Hebrew" word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." The problem is, however, that Isa.14:12 was not written in Latin or Greek, but Hebrew. And I assure you that "lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, as we saw defined above, all of which suggest brightness or shining. Likewise xosphoros in the Greek derived English words such as, fluorescence and phosphorescence.

    But, there seems to be no Hebrew or Aramaic text in which there is a word in this verse to correspond. What we find in all such texts is the word "hehlehl,&#8217; eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill. And what is the meaning of "ill"? Are you ready? It means HOWL. That&#8217;s right, "Lucifer" turns out to be nothing more than a "howl" (maybe of &#8216;hot air&#8217;)!

    It has been suggested that the translators of the Septuagint (Hebrew into Greek) could have overlooked the smallest of the Hebrew letters or been using a copy in which it had been inadvertently omitted. Thus if the form of the world eill, as it occurs in this particular text, were shortened to ell its meaning would be derived from a different root, in fact would be itself a different root, and the sense given in the Septuagint and the Vulgate would be at least understandable, with one giant exception. There is still absolutely no reason or rule of grammar for turning this word into a personal name! It could possibly mean "a shining one," but not a personal name such as "Lucifer." Doubtless the translators followed the Vulgate as they did in most of their translating.




    Clearly the reference is to Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory. Yet just as Capernaum, God says she is brought down to the earth, the one who was a "crusher of nations."

    In all Hebrew or Aramaic texts of Isa. 14:12, the only word found is "heh-lehl," eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill, meaning howl. Here is Kittel&#8217;s Hebrew Text for the Hebrew Stem ill&#8212;"yah-lahl"&#8212;HOWL:


    Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
    Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
    Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
    Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
    Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
    Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
    Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
    Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
    Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
    Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
    Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
    Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
    Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
    Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
    Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
    Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
    Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
    Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
    Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
    Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
    Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
    Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
    Joel 1:11 eililu howl
    Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
    Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
    Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
    Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
    Zech.11:2 eill howl
    Zech.11:2 eililu howl
    Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)



    And notice carefully that the Hebrew verb eill in Isa. 14:12 is the identical form of the first verb eill in Zech. 11:2. Now try substituting the personal noun "Lucifer" in place of the verb "howl" in the two places it occurs in Zech. 11:2. Here as in many Scriptures, the trees are likened to people who are crying out because of the death and destruction:

    "Lucifer, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: Lucifer, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the ventage is come down."

    Such a translation would be nonsense. Or let&#8217;s try it back in Isa. 14 where we find the word Lucifer in verse 12, but notice how this word is translated in verse 31: Instead of "Howl, O gate; cry, O city&#8230;" We would have, "Lucifer, O gate; cry, O city&#8230;" Again, such a translation would be nonsense, as it is also nonsense in Isa. 14:12.

    Kittel in a footnote informs us that it is only the Septuagint (which, remember, is the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) that we find this word ell instead of eill. This word was translated into eospearos, which Jerome translated into Lucifer with a capital "L," which the King James translators carried over into English without checking the HEBREW manuscripts, which would have solved this dilemma. All Hebrew manuscripts have eill in Isaiah 14:12, and remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, NOT Greek or Latin!



    A "jot" is a Greek "iota" and in Hebrew a "tittle" is a "yod," which is the very smallest stroke in a Hebrew letter. And just how important are those little iotas? The difference between the absence of "i", or the presence of "i", is the reason why, we have the Lucifer LIE!

    Now back to Isa. 14. With "Lucifer" out of the way, let&#8217;s read a couple versions other than the KJV and see how they dealt with this strange word ell which comes to us by way of the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate:


    "How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!" You are hacked down to the earth, destroyer of nations" (New International Version)


    "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! (New Revised Standard Version)

    There is absolutely no reason to capitalize "day," "star," or "dawn" in this last version.

    Here is how the Concordant Literal Old Testament translates this verse by following the Hebrew Manuscripts rather than the Catholic Latin Bible:


    "How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations."

    It is the king of Babylon who elevated himself to high heaven in the heavens of his own mind, and it is the same king of Babylon who has "fallen from the heavens," and it is the same king of Babylon who is "hacked down to the earth," and it is the same king of Babylon who was the "defeater of all nations," and not a "perfect Satan."
     
  4. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    evil is not so much what you do but why you do it....
     
  5. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    I agree with your assertions about the king of Babylon. But I am left wondering. Do you think the so-called angels are essentially robots--devoid of the will to think, feel, and act upon their own initiative?
     
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    This is all well known. The fallen angel is simply known as "Lucifer" (shining one, light bringer, morning star). We know it is a Latin word and not a proper name.

    But what then is a proper name? Is "Miller", as in 'miller of grain', or "Crabtree" as in the tree, a proper name? You get the picture. As long as God didn't give proper names to the 'morning stars' we can call them 'Morning Stars'........or 'Light Bringer'.....or even (gasp) 'LUCIFER'. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  7. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Joh 9:39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    This application of the name " Lucifer " as a proper name of the Devil, is plainly ungrounded; but the magnificence of the imagery of the prophet, far transcending in grandeur the fall of Nebuchadnezzar to which it immediately refers, has naturally given a color to the symbolical interpretation of the passage, and fixed that application in our modern language.

    Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.

    While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

    Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

    THE CREATION AND FALL OF MAN, BY SAMUEL SHUCKFORD, D.D.
     
  8. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    One can be too literal in their interpretation of metaphors. Metaphors are meant to convey another meaning. To dismiss the metaphor is to lose the other, usually deeper, meaning.
     
  9. sinning machine

    sinning machine Guest

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    WHAT ARE CHERUBS?

    Aren&#8217;t cherubs those cute little chubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

    Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.


    "And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

    They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:


    "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

    It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

    There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; &#8216;cherubim&#8217; in Hebrew means, &#8216;AS-MANY&#8217;) of heaven is divided on God&#8217;s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.


    "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

    Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.

    Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:


    "By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

    Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can&#8217;t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

    The king wasn&#8217;t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don&#8217;t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn&#8217;t know the cherub.

    And finally we read this, "&#8230;and never shall you` be any more" ( Verse 19). Think how absurd it would be to say that Satan would "never be any more." Satan is still (27 centuries later) alive and well on planet Earth.

    Well, there you have it. Satan was ALWAYS Satan. He was never an archangel/cherub/light-bringing/Lucifer/firefly. Here is what the Scriptures teach:

    So was Satan the devil really "perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him?" NO:


    "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins FROM THE BEGINNING&#8230;" (I John 3:8).

    But the Church teaches us that there was a time when Satan the devil was righteous and would have never thought to murder anyone. So didn&#8217;t Satan the devil change into a murderer at some later date? NO:


    "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING&#8230;" (John 8:44).

    Maybe it&#8217;s time we give this all up. There is no "Lucifer," and there never was a "Lucifer." There is no righteous light-bringing Satan, and there never was a righteous light-bringing Satan. Lucifer the light-bringing sinless Satan is a Christian Hoax!


    "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches."
     
  10. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Few things are more amusing than watching the blind grope in their darkness, while bragging about how well they can see....
     
  11. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    I agree that the Devil was never a good guy. But I still say that the truth about his origins, power, and position in the great scheme of things has yet to be revealed....
     
  12. x141

    x141 ...

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    in us ... duality cannot partake of this truth, and remains a truth all the same that only one leads you into.

    For so many, where they are is still a mystery to them.
     
  13. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Alas, very true.
     
  14. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Hardly a metaphor>
    Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.

    While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

    Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
     
  15. Evergreen48

    Evergreen48 Senior Member

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    That is hogwash.

    Matthew 3:1. "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2. And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

    Isa 40:3. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

    The last authority I know of has "40" and all folowing numbers after to come AFTER "39"


    Matt. 12:15. "But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16.And charged them that they should not make him known: 17. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18. Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."

    Isa. 42:1. "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law." (see also Luke 3:4)

    John 12:37. " But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    Isa. 53: 1. "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
    Acts. 8: 28 " . . . Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?"
    Isa. 53:7. " He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. 8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."
    Rom. 10:16. "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who has believed our report? 17. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " (See Isa. 53:1 and John 12:38)


    That's not true. The "devil" is created in the imagination of mankind and can only do what we allow him to do.

    What you 'strongly suspect' and what really is, are two entirely different things. The 'devil' has been around only as long as mankind has, as it has its beginning in the imagination of man.


    Agreed that God does not commit evil acts or think evil thoughts, but he allows mankind to do so.


    God does not just endeavor to do anything. He is all powerful and can destroy evil anytime he desires. But if he did that he would destroy human freewill also, making us no better than the lower form of animal life with the "kill or be killed" sentient, or even the plants which grow from the earth which live out their life spans rooted in one place with no hope of evolvement to a higher form of life.
     
  16. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    There's more to it than that. The kings of Babylon and Tyrus, with the inset allusions, to the 'morning star' are just one piece of information of many regarding this angelic being. Consider God's condemnation of the King of Tyrus as distinct from all the other kings that Israel was afflicted by. Israel may have done trade with Tyre but had no other dealings. Why did God single out the 'king of Tyrus' for a condemnation similar to other kings that did afflict Israel. Why would God be so offended with a merchant king that had practically nothing to do with Israel. The answer is that the king of Tyrus was a type of the fallen 'morning star', the angelic being. Surely God inspired the inclusion of this information for us discover as one of the 'deep things' of scripture.
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Informing us of the fall of Tyre
    Ezekiel 26:18 (KJV) Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

    21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

    Ezekiel 27:32 (KJV) And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

    36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.

    Accordingly Jerome says that he read in Assyrian histories that, "when the Tyrians saw no hope of escaping, they fled to Carthage or some islands of the Ionian and gean Seas" [Bishop Newton]. (See on Eze 29:18). Grotius explains "departure," that is, "in the day when hostages shall be carried away from thee to Babylon." The parallelism to "thy fall" makes me think "departure" must mean "thy end" in general, but with an included allusion to the "departure" of most of her people to her colonies at the fall of the city.
    enrich... kings—with the custom dues levied on the wares. utterly bald—literally, "bald with baldness." The Phoenician custom in mourning; which, as being connected with heathenish superstitions, was forbidden to Israel (De 14:1).
    A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

    Is 14:12 Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
     
  18. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Mr Evergreen, I suggest you do some research. Isaiah only wrote the first 39 chapters of the book of Isaiah. In other word, the book was only 39 chapters long when he died in the 8th Century BC. Chapters 40 through 55 were written by an unknown author or authors after 580 BC, during the Exile in Babylon. Chapters 56 through 66 were written a little before Nehemiah's arrival in Jerusalem in 444 BC....

    Keep fooling yourself all you wish. But the Devil is just as real as is God. By saying he is a figment of humanity's imagination, you are saying Yeshua's encounter with the Devil in the wilderness is BS. As I have previously said, he has confronted me on various occasions. I have seen him in all his awful glory and have suffered through the slings and arrows of his anger too many times to recount. But God and the Son protect me from the worst that he can do as well as from the worst that his demons can do. I have witnessed his power first-hand. He is nobody to trifle with. No human can thwart his power or resist it without God's help. I have known individuals who embraced beliefs similar to yours who paid heavy prices for foolishly daring to challenge him to do something about about their disrespect....

    Though God is supremely powerful, He cannot simply eradicate Evil. It is as much an integral component of our reality as are gravity and magnetism, creation and destruction. The great irony of the matter is that the individuals in question are sons of the Devil....

    As for the authority of whoever wrote the portions of Isaiah's book long after he died, they might have been inspired by God to some degree. Yet I cannot help but wonder why they practiced deception by writing in Isaiah's name....

    I long ago learned to trust my suspicions and intuition and listen to the quiet voice within. Again and again, their counsel has proven exceedingly insightful and and uncannily accurate. he bottom line is that I do have sources for whatever I assert. I believe God is the wellspring of such....
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  19. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Limiting the Power of God is blasphemy, if there were such as creature other than the figment of your imagination, all God would have to do is to snap His fingers and it would be eradicated.
    A belief in an supreme creature who could oppose God is overly polytheistic a pagan belief in more than one god.

    God created everything, all beasts, crawling creatures, flying creatures, fish. fowl, man, everything and nothing was done without Him. John 1:3 (KJV)
    3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

    Psalm 7:9 (KJV)
    9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

    Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan’s fall from Heaven.

    While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

    Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
     
  20. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Woe to the scribes and Pharisees that don the armor of misconceptions and arm themselves against the Devil with wishful thinking....
     
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