Evidence vs. Believe (A Tale of Two Bunnies)

[AV1611VET]

Again NO ANSWER, why do you answer a question by asking a question? is it because you don't have an answer?
we know it's what you have been trained to do AV1611VET but please just once in your life try and answer a question.

How many times have I answered that question in the last five and a half years?

 

[Tiberius]

In other words, you haven't tried it. And if your logic on display here is any indication, there might be good reasons why you haven't tried it. You might need to put a little more effort into designing a test ...

No I haven't tried it. Are you actually suggesting that I go out and rob from people's houses?

What I am doing is looking at what has happened to people who HAVE tried it. Do you see a problem with making observations like that?

Try putting yourself in Adam's place and see if your objection holds water.

You're looking at fully-grown trees, ripe with fruit -- not to mention full-grown animals walking and flying around.

God tells you those trees came into existence just hours before you did.

What would your reply be?

My response would be...

"So God, you tell me that the world is only hours old, and yet when I investigate it, it seemed to be billions of years old. Why? Why did you create a world that looks to be something that it isn't? Why didn't you just create the world billions of years ago?"

Now tell me, AV, what do you think God's answer would be?

 

[Tiberius]

How many times have I answered that question in the last five and a half years?

GASP! You mean you've actually clearly stated why God created the world to look billions of years old when it hasn't really existed for that long? Please provide links! This I have to see for myself!

 

[RickG]

The only think that is not correct is your understanding of Genesis. The reference is to the lights in the firmament. What we see in the sky. The reference is not to the creation of the stars themselves.

Gen 1:16 God made two great lights.

And explain how there was evening and morning and days before that and how he made land plants before the sun.

The story is not literal.

 

[AV1611VET]

My response would be...

"So God, you tell me that the world is only hours old, and yet when I investigate it, it seemed to be billions of years old. Why? Why did you create a world that looks to be something that it isn't? Why didn't you just create the world billions of years ago?"

Now tell me, AV, what do you think God's answer would be?

How old do you want these trees?

 

[Tiberius]

That doesn't address what I am asking, AV...

And can you actually answer something without using another question? I think you're just avoiding the issue...

 

[Delphiki]

I get it.
The duck is a bird like a Finch and the puzzle pieces are the various books in the Bible.
I like it.

Would it be more sad that you don' get it or more sad that you know you're lying to yourself about the cartoon?

 

[AV1611VET]

That doesn't address what I am asking, AV...

And can you actually answer something without using another question? I think you're just avoiding the issue...

How should I know why God created the earth billions of years old?

Again, using Adam as a template, I assume it's because that amount of maturity was required for a reason.

Ever heard of the Anthropic principle?

You can call Him 'deceptive' if you want; but in order to do so, you have to also deny the Note He left behind, detailing what He did, what order He did it in, when He did it, where He did it, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

 

[Delphiki]

How should I know why God created the earth billions of years old?

Again, using Adam as a template, I assume it's because that amount of maturity was required for a reason.

Ever heard of the Anthropic principle?

You can call Him 'deceptive' if you want; but in order to do so, you have to also deny the Note He left behind, detailing what He did, what order He did it in, when He did it, where He did it, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were.

Anthropic principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In physics and cosmology, the anthropic principle is the philosophical argument that observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the conscious life that observes it. Some proponents of the argument reason that it explains why the universe has the age and the fundamental physical constants necessary to accommodate conscious life. As a result, they believe that the fact that the universe's fundamental constants are within the narrow range thought to allow life is not remarkable."

Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.

-- Douglas Adams

 

[Tiberius]

How should I know why God created the earth billions of years old?

There's no good reason for God to create a universe that appeared to be old but was not old.

Again, using Adam as a template, I assume it's because that amount of maturity was required for a reason.

And if that maturity was needed, why didn't he just wait for billions of years until that maturity came about the old fashioned way? face it, AV, the only reason you hold onto this embedded age stuff is because you so desperately want the Bible to be literally true that you grasp onto anything that allows you to do that, and you dismiss everything that disagrees, even if it is reality.

 

[Reine]

Oh goody! Let's try it!

A subjective truth that God would agree with, or something that I think is true about the nature of God that would lead to a certain type of action? let's go with burglary. I think that God would not like people who rob the homes of others.

Then we live as though we believe this concept to be true. So let's live as though we think theft is okay. Luckily, we don't need to do this, because there are lots of people who do live like this and we can look at them instead of having to do it ourselves.

There are many home burglaries that go unsolved, and yet there are cases of burglars being shot and killed by the home owners. Wow, what do we do with such wildly different results?

What do the results tell you about what God thinks of robbing people's homes?

You see, the problem with this is that you are looking at what happens to you to figure out what God thinks of it, when your experiences are statistically insignificant in the real world. If you decide to see if vegetarianism is wrong, so you become a vegetarian for a little while and you get bad stomach aches, does that mean that all vegetarians are wrong and will be punished by God? After all, they have tried vegetarianism and it works fine! So why would God say it is bad for you, but okay for other people?

And do you really risk bringing the wrath of God down upon you to find out if it's okay? I mean, isn't that a bit like finding out if a liquid is poisonous by drinking it and seeing if you die?

No, these are not the types of things I was thinking of.... You actually could do this experiementi, and it is fun ... and you don't really even have to beleive in God. I experiment personally with things that I learn from the teachings of Jesus. But you could experiment with concepts of ethic. A type of experiment that you could do would go more like this: Say that you beleive that being a vegetarian is not healthy, but you also think that being judgemental is not an emotionally healthy thing either. You could practice not being judgemental but still tell people you think being a vegetarian is unhealthy. In order to do this experiment, you would have to find a way to express yourself in a way that is not unhealthy or damaging to yourself or others.... How would you do this? How would you describe your opinion? How would you describe the attitude you would have to take towards others? How would you describe the wording that you would have to use? What types of motives would you have to have?

What I am suggesting does work, but is for subjective personal growth that I personally draw from God.

 

[AV1611VET]

There's no good reason for God to create a universe that appeared to be old but was not old.

WOW -- what a statement!

I can't argue with that arrogance, can I?

And if that maturity was needed, why didn't he just wait for billions of years until that maturity came about the old fashioned way?

Why?

So atheists who would deny Him anyway can't do it on the grounds He was being deceptive?

I'm glad He didn't check with you first.

face it, AV, the only reason you hold onto this embedded age stuff is because you so desperately want the Bible to be literally true that you grasp onto anything that allows you to do that, and you dismiss everything that disagrees, even if it is reality.

Thank you, Sigmund Fraud.

 

[Reine]

No no no. You 'll have to give me a reason to start it, a reason I can can judge it worth to spent share some time for it.


So I have to read the bible just for the lulz?

My reason for the first one is because I think it will have personal value for you, as to the second one.. Yes, of course... I want you to have a good time

 

[Tiberius]

WOW -- what a statement!

I can't argue with that arrogance, can I?

Why?

So atheists who would deny Him anyway can't do it on the grounds He was being deceptive?

I'm glad He didn't check with you first.

Thank you, Sigmund Fraud.

lol. You gotta wonder at the logic that uses someone disagreeing with them as proof that they are right.

 

[Doveaman]

You can also check out the original languages. I guess I see the humor in the words of Jesus, ... like telling the Pharisees they made their converts twice as deserving to get thrown into the local dump for burning trash, than they themseves were. Of course in order to know this, one would have to go back to the original word Gehenna.

Interesting. This confirms what I always thought; that hell was God's local dump for burning sinners.

 

[Doveaman]

I agree... and I have noticed two types of atheists. One type just has no belief in God, no knowlege of God's existence. The other one has made atheism a religion that is opposed to any with a belief in God.

You will find a lot of the later type in these forums.

 

[Doveaman]

Stop being so sensitive. The OP is about adhering to a belief even when it is shown to be false.

So the OP is about scientific theories then. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Doveaman]

Yeah, there are a good number of Creationists here. Raze, Jazer, AV1611VET, Doveaman, etc. There are a handful of Christians who accept evolution who post here, but sadly they don't post often enough. So on the surface it usually looks like a "Christians vs. atheists" battle, when most of the time it's "fundamentalist Creationist Christians vs. moderate science-accepting people".

I feel insulted.

 

[Doveaman]

Why don't you fill out this survey for me, then:

Okay.

1. Do you accept that all life shares a common ancestor on this planet?

Of course. We call Him God.

"For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible...He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Col 1:16-17).

2. If not, what do you believe explains the diversity of life on this planet?

"God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing...and every winged bird...God made the wild animals...the livestock...all the creatures that move along the ground...God created man...male and female He created them" (Genesis 1).

Once you answer those, you won't have to complain about me misrepresenting your beliefs anymore.

Thanks.

 

[Tiberius]

You will find a lot of the later type in these forums.

You enjoy make men out of straw?

So the OP is about scientific theories then. Thanks for clearing that up.

Other way around, actually.