How do you know it was designed?
If you believe it was designed, who designed it if not a supernatural agent?
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Evidence for Design (2)
- Thread starter elephunky
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If you believe it was designed, who designed it if not a supernatural agent?
EternalDragon
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Complex organic structures do not design themselves from the bottom up. From simple to complex. Intelligent designers do that.
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EternalDragon
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I will provide you with four:
1. A scientist could take an organism without a flagellum or genes for one and study it in the lab to see if it will start to produce one on it's own.
2. Find life on a gas planet with a different sun than ours.
3. Find a non-carbon based life form.
4. Describe a realistic, continuously functional Darwinian pathway from simple ancestor to present flagellum motor.
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EternalDragon
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By going completely against what ID theory states. Are you grasping now?
Evolution theory and ID theory can be falsified and have been. It's been discussed at length on these forums. I think we can move forward.
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Heh, I think it can't be stated specifically because it's unfalsifiable. At some unknown point some unknown entity using some unknown means did X for some unknown reason.
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EternalDragon
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I think you just pretty much summed up evolution theory. Except they highjack natural selection and mutation and use that for "unknown means".
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Right so evolution has natural observed mechanisms and doesn't propose hypothetical unevidenced entities.
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createdtoworship
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it is not in the supernatural, or metaphysical realm. I just gave a quote from the president of the leading ID organization. Now I think you are confusing many BC biblical creationists that use ID in their argumentation. And that MAY contain supernatural elements, but ID in itself does not.
If you are questioning this further I recommend a study of this article:
http://www.discovery.org/a/3191
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createdtoworship
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I will respond to your question as it seems sincere enough.
supernatural is elements of the Bible and science that do not necessarily involve the five senses they may be meta physical and involve faith. They may involve both, in the case of miracles. But without trying to sound like a scientologist or someone quarky, many things are supernatural. But ID is simply put, science. And as a result only deal with the five senses. My original argument was dealing with just that. Statistical probability of simple cell evolution. THat was it. but supernatural again can be included in many of what we speak of here. But realize I am separating from ID to speak of such things. A supernatural element is something metaphysical like I said, beyond the five senses. Hence why some people will state - sixth sense). I believe this sixth sense to be spiritual of some sorts. But that is another story. Back to what I believe the soul to be massless and therefore out of space and time. THis is a supernatural discussion because of the fact that science doesn't prove or disprove a souls existence. I posted before the following information on why the soul is eternal or outside of space and time. Not eternal like God, but rather immortal and will never die or extinguish. It is this eternalness that I was describing...something not only outside of the five senses, but outside of of time all together, and therefore eternal.
Some of these arguments lie in the fact that
the weight of an empty CD is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.
The mass of the CD is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its burned or not. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)
the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons
all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.
a quote from an essay on information
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...3_2_96-102.pdf
time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)
so the soul is outside of time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tulJnR5siYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F7M6LqEAukg
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createdtoworship
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Eternal Dragon gave a good answer to this I would also like to add CSI,
read this article:
The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI). Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
from
Intelligent Design
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EternalDragon
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Evolution on it's basics, no. Evolution in the form of organisms drastically changing from some original form into a new complex form, yes. That would require something intelligent and supernatural.
You can obviously see, without science, that things are going the reverse way. We mucked about with dog breeds and we can see where that ended up.
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I've always found this part rather curious. Is there some objective way to measure how high a level of CSI something has? How many levels of CSI are there? Is there, like, a maximum and a minimum level of CSI? How much CSI does a natural object have to have before we can determine if it was designed or not? How do we reach that conclusion? How much CSI does, say, an apple have? Does a rock have? Does a snowflake have? If I take a statue and smash it to unrecognizable pieces, does it lose the CSI? Where the does the CSI go?
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EternalDragon
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As we gain new technology and can look at smaller things, life keeps getting more complicated. It keeps looking more complex. And it is on a microscopic level we can't begin to re-create.
The same goes for DNA. What they thought was useless junk DNA now has a real function.
It's described in a book called "Darwin's Black Box". Named because every time we look at life more closely, the more complex it appears.
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EternalDragon
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They are still dogs but now with numerous malfunctions and problems. They did not improve. They got worse. Which is the way all life is going. Not the magical, gradual, uphill change evolution theory proposes.
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