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Evidence for Design (2)

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by elephunky, Oct 16, 2013.

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  1. FatBurk

    FatBurk That should read FayBurk and not FatBurk.

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    Gradyll, why don't you learn more about evolution and use your new found knowledge to argue against it?
    surly if it's so wrong it has got to be easy to blow holes in it.
     
  2. biggles53

    biggles53 Junior Member

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    Grady....get real...

    Your argument is that living things are they way they are because they've been designed.....

    Fine...then tell me why men were designed with nipples. Why whales were designed with hind limbs that aren't used. Why we get goose flesh. Why the Mexican Cave Fish were designed with eyes that don't work.

    The evolutionary theory has perfectly sensible answers to these issues...

    Where are yours....?
     
  3. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    And you know that I said nothing of the kind. I never mentioned amino acids at all. I merely stated the fact that existing proteins that are similar but not exactly the same can perform the same functions, even in cases (like phyto-estrogens) where their original function is totally unrelated.

    Observation of a fact trumps speculation of the probability before the observation.

    I usually use lotteries to show this is so no matter how small a probability is calculated, and I will again if you insist, but I recently had to establish the very truth of the statement itself on another thread, and suspect I have to do that first here before I show that the size of the probability does not affect the truth of the statement.

    Based on your parents' blood types, and their genes, we can predict, as an example, that there is a 25% chance that your blood type will be AB. That means that there is a 75% chance that it will not be AB. It is much more likely that you will not be AB. But then you have your blood tested, and it turns out that you are AB. It does not matter whether the chances were calculated at 10% or 100%, you are AB and nothing will ever change that.
     
  4. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    And after you know which one has the sugar, it is the one with the sugar, and the others are the ones without. 100% certainty in all cases. After-the-fact knowledge trumps before-the-fact speculation.
     
  5. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    As I already stated, two different but very similar proteins, "designed" to function completely separately in wildly different biological organisms can be substituted for one another without loss of function. Even big differences are not a bar to functioning, but it can lead to complications. That is why the opiates, anabolic steroids, and other drugs are proscribed by the medical profession, except under specific guidelines and constant monitoring, and why they are often banned or highly regulated even by the secular government
     
  6. ThinkForYourself

    ThinkForYourself Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be saying: "I don't understand how it could have happened, so god must have done it".

    I don't see how the default position for a lack of understanding is "god did it". That isn't evidence.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I don't usually use a "God of the Gaps" fallacy, but in this type of situation it fits. But it actually isn't an argument from silence IF there is no other reason FOR the organisms in existence, is there?

    I await for your response.
     
  8. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    just showing basics of statistical analysis. Thats all. IF one glass has sugar and the other two do not, there is one chance in three of producing a sweet drink from a random choosing. Now taking all that we have discussed into consideration, there is very very little chance of producing even one protein successfully from chance chemistry. Not even getting into DNA we are talking simple proteins right now.
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    what in my example was speculation?
     
  10. ThinkForYourself

    ThinkForYourself Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, "God of the Gaps". Had to google that to see what it meant. In other words, I'm inexperienced, be gentle!

    Perhaps I misunderstood your argument. It seemed you said that it was impossible for something to happen, so it must have been magic.
     
  11. FatBurk

    FatBurk That should read FayBurk and not FatBurk.

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  12. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    exactly that, Without the magic. It was designed, I never said that supernatural agents were involved although they could be.
     
  13. FatBurk

    FatBurk That should read FayBurk and not FatBurk.

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    How would we know if they were? how could we tell?
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    in 2009, Stephen Meyer argues that, "Though the designing agent
    responsible for life may well have been an omnipotent deity, the
    theory of intelligent design does not claim to be able to determine
    that."

    once you mention supernatural elements are involved you introduce faith and religious textbooks. I am talking science only, not that the supernatural contradicts science....but that I believe it to be metaphysical or beyond the scope of science. You have BC biblical creationism which debates creationism with a hint of ID through the Biblical argumentation, and you have ID intelligent design theory, ID doesn't use the Bible at all, in fact some evolutionists are ID and are on staff at discovery institute. So anyway, they are mainly involved in science and Intelligence in the designing of the universe, many of them Christians and many of them NOT. So I try to discuss ID instead. And ID specifically states that the nature of the designer is not a subject of ID.

    Now mentioning all of this, I think science does point to a super natural diety, but that theory is not ID it's more of the BC that I adhere to as well.

    Some of these arguments lie in the fact that

    why the soul is eternal and why hell must be as well
    the weight of an empty CD is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

    The mass of the CD is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its burned or not. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

    the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

    all non-material entities (e.g. information,
    consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
    have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
    it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
    or chemical processes.

    a quote from an essay on information
    http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...3_2_96-102.pdf

    time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

    so the soul is outside of time


    Beyond Time and Space with Chuck Missler - YouTube


    Time a Physical property - YouTube
     
  15. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    Sorry, but you can't pretend that ID is not intimately entangled in the Supernatural, and therefore not science. A natural designer would be an alien from another planet or something similar. If it is not a supernatural God, then you still have the question of how life emerged and developed in the place that our designer came from.
     
  16. FatBurk

    FatBurk That should read FayBurk and not FatBurk.

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    I will ask again, How would we know if they were? how could we tell?

    Perhaps you could also explain what the 'supernatural' is?
     
  17. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    ID does not name or concern themselves with the designer. Much as evolution claims not to associate their theory with abiogenesis.

    ID theory uses the exact same science and evidence that evolution uses.
     
  18. biggles53

    biggles53 Junior Member

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    BS............describe one mechanism by which ID could be falsified.......
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  19. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    Sorry, no. Think it through.
     
  20. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    "Think", that is the key word here.

    But, it doesn't solve the issue at hand, because some people can only "think" according to their individual psychological needs to want to believe in something.

    So, they "think" of ways of defending their believe, of protecting it, instead of "thinking" along the lines of accepting evidence and understanding it if it goes against their belief.
     
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