Evidence for an event surrounding the crucifixion

[tas8831]

As is so often the case on cre v. evo forums, the creationists are quickly reduced to demanding evidence (that they have no intention of considering, or, more often, understanding) and baldly asserting that there is all kinds of evidence for creation and bible lore in general. In a now closed thread, I had asked "inquiring mind" the following, in response to his claims about transitional fossils:

Surely everyone realizes that if there was an undeniable, definite ape-to-man transitional line (a definitely defined route, no connect the dots, no conjecture) that included fossil and genetic verification, it would be clearly detailed and presented with scientists and academia celebrating the consensus, and promoting the revelation in Ten Commandments style everywhere... and there’d be no (or very few) credible scientific disputes.​

and he never replied. I think I know why:

Can you provide definitive corroboration for the claims in Mark that the sky went dark for three hours when Jesus died on the cross?

That was supposed to have happened but a few thousand years ago, when there were all kinds of sophisticated human cultures all around the world, most with systems of writing and social hierarchies that were interested in recording events and such.

Surely it would be far, far easier for the Christian to present reams of verifiable, valid, corroborated evidence for such events being observed and recorded around the world, or at least in the middle east and adjoining areas where such events would have to have been observed as opposed to finding some specific set of fossils from millions of years ago?

This is why I ask creationists who think they have some kind of brilliant argument about fossils how much they actually understand about the topic.

Do you know under what conditions fossils can form? Do you know how prevalent such conditions are? It seems not.​

Any creationists want to address any of that?

 

[Strathos]

Did it happen everywhere around the world? Or only locally?

 

[juvenissun]

Do you know under what conditions fossils can form? Do you know how prevalent such conditions are? It seems not.

I understand these issues much better than you do. Whatever you know, I can question it and I bet you can not answer the question.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Tertullian claims it was written in official Roman records, and Origen states that Phlegon of Tralles noted the darkness and earthquakes during Tiberius' reign. Further, Sextus Africanus says that the historian Thallus noted an eclipse in Judaea at the time of the Crucifixion (though he was dismissive of it really being an eclipse, instead of a miracle).

These are all Christian writers referring to lost Pagan writers or records, but they weren't lost sources when these claims were made, and many of them were rebuttals of anti-Christian polemics. So the probability of some such reference is by no means neglible.

 

[Colter]

As is so often the case on cre v. evo forums, the creationists are quickly reduced to demanding evidence (that they have no intention of considering, or, more often, understanding) and baldly asserting that there is all kinds of evidence for creation and bible lore in general. In a now closed thread, I had asked "inquiring mind" the following, in response to his claims about transitional fossils:

Surely everyone realizes that if there was an undeniable, definite ape-to-man transitional line (a definitely defined route, no connect the dots, no conjecture) that included fossil and genetic verification, it would be clearly detailed and presented with scientists and academia celebrating the consensus, and promoting the revelation in Ten Commandments style everywhere... and there’d be no (or very few) credible scientific disputes.​

and he never replied. I think I know why:

Can you provide definitive corroboration for the claims in Mark that the sky went dark for three hours when Jesus died on the cross?

That was supposed to have happened but a few thousand years ago, when there were all kinds of sophisticated human cultures all around the world, most with systems of writing and social hierarchies that were interested in recording events and such.

Surely it would be far, far easier for the Christian to present reams of verifiable, valid, corroborated evidence for such events being observed and recorded around the world, or at least in the middle east and adjoining areas where such events would have to have been observed as opposed to finding some specific set of fossils from millions of years ago?

This is why I ask creationists who think they have some kind of brilliant argument about fossils how much they actually understand about the topic.

Do you know under what conditions fossils can form? Do you know how prevalent such conditions are? It seems not.​

Any creationists want to address any of that?

Coincidentally, while Jesus died on the cross, a sandstorm blew up from the Arabian Desert, the sky darkened.

 

[Colter]

Life was created and planted in the shallow briny seas hundreds of millions of years ago. Inherent in life is the purposive potential of the creator, a being infinitely more intelligent than finite man. Those initial primitive life forms evolved into life as we know it.

There are no transitional fossils for the simple fact that they never existed. Evolution has been characterized by numerous mutations with some intermediate adaptations.

The fossil records are the remains of different life forms that lived during different epochs of evolutionary history.

 

[tas8831]

Tertullian claims it was written in official Roman records, and Origen states that Phlegon of Tralles noted the darkness and earthquakes during Tiberius' reign. Further, Sextus Africanus says that the historian Thallus noted an eclipse in Judaea at the time of the Crucifixion (though he was dismissive of it really being an eclipse, instead of a miracle).

These are all Christian writers referring to lost Pagan writers or records, but they weren't lost sources when these claims were made, and many of them were rebuttals of anti-Christian polemics. So the probability of some such reference is by no means neglible.

Do eclipses last for 3 hours? According to NASA, the longest one between 4000 BC and the year 8000 will be less than 8 minutes.

"At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon." NIV

It is easy to go 'back in time' regarding eclipses, and apparently none were visible in Judea in the appropriate time frame.

Second-hand hearsay is not that impressive.


Then there is this from Matthew:

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Weird that this is not mentioned in Mark... Guess Mark did not think that the dead rising was special enough to mention?

 

[tas8831]

Coincidentally, while Jesus died on the cross, a sandstorm blew up from the Arabian Desert, the sky darkened. View attachment 249735 View attachment 249736

Can't tell if this is a joke or not...

 

[tas8831]

Life was created and planted in the shallow briny seas hundreds of millions of years ago. Inherent in life is the purposive potential of the creator, a being infinitely more intelligent than finite man. Those initial primitive life forms evolved into life as we know it.

There are no transitional fossils for the simple fact that they never existed. Evolution has been characterized by numerous mutations with some intermediate adaptations.

The fossil records are the remains of different life forms that lived during different epochs of evolutionary history.

Off topic, irrelevant, and wrong.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Tertullian claims it was written in official Roman records, and Origen states that Phlegon of Tralles noted the darkness and earthquakes during Tiberius' reign. Further, Sextus Africanus says that the historian Thallus noted an eclipse in Judaea at the time of the Crucifixion (though he was dismissive of it really being an eclipse, instead of a miracle).

These are all Christian writers referring to lost Pagan writers or records, but they weren't lost sources when these claims were made, and many of them were rebuttals of anti-Christian polemics. So the probability of some such reference is by no means neglible.

mara ben serapion also

Unbelievable? Is There Enough Evidence Beyond the Gospels to Make Their Testimony Reliable? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Erik Nelson]

Do eclipses last for 3 hours? According to NASA, the longest one between 4000 BC and the year 8000 will be less than 8 minutes.

"At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon." NIV

It is easy to go 'back in time' regarding eclipses, and apparently none were visible in Judea in the appropriate time frame.

Second-hand hearsay is not that impressive.


Then there is this from Matthew:

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Weird that this is not mentioned in Mark... Guess Mark did not think that the dead rising was special enough to mention?

many people observed the darkness

no one has scientifically explained it

none of the Christian writers called it an (solar) eclipse, they denied that attribution from secular historians

 

[Colter]

Can't tell if this is a joke or not...

Oh, I thought you asked a serious question. Just another heckling Atheist on a religious forum who doesn't really want answers.

 

[tas8831]

many people observed the darkness

But none felt it frightening or bizarre enough to mention it?

no one has scientifically explained it

A fabrication?

none of the Christian writers called it an (solar) eclipse, they denied that attribution from secular historians

Well that is the only actual 'explanation' I have seen offered up by apologists.
Since the death of Jesus was, I should think, had it actually happened, an event of global significance, one has to wonder why it is that the supposed witnesses to these events did not all write them down, and that none outside of after-the-fact hearsay and none outside of the area where this event supposedly took lace mention it at all.

Dead rising from graves after earthquakes?
And NOBODY bothered to make note of this???

Come on - it is a fish tale.

 

[Colter]

Mark 15:33 33At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.

Dust storm - Wikipedia

 

[tas8831]

Oh, I thought you asked a serious question. Just another heckling Atheist on a religious forum who doesn't really want answers.

No, just a non-gullible person wondering why you would think a magic sandstorm 'darkened the sky for 3 hours'. I guess the bible people had never experienced sandstorms before? It it had been a sandstorm, why didn't all of the Gospels just say that a sandstorm appeared at noon until 3?

I DO want answers, I don't want straw-grasping and nonsense.

 

[Erik Nelson]

But none felt it frightening or bizarre enough to mention it?

Unbelievable? Is There Enough Evidence Beyond the Gospels to Make Their Testimony Reliable? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Colter]

No, just a non-gullible person wondering why you would think a magic sandstorm 'darkened the sky for 3 hours'. I guess the bible people had never experienced sandstorms before? It it had been a sandstorm, why didn't all of the Gospels just say that a sandstorm appeared at noon until 3?

I DO want answers, I don't want straw-grasping and nonsense.

I'm providing a rational explanation. Have you ever had this experience, stories get retold and a little exaggerated for effect???

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Do eclipses last for 3 hours? According to NASA, the longest one between 4000 BC and the year 8000 will be less than 8 minutes.

"At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon." NIV

It is easy to go 'back in time' regarding eclipses, and apparently none were visible in Judea in the appropriate time frame.

Second-hand hearsay is not that impressive.


Then there is this from Matthew:

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

Weird that this is not mentioned in Mark... Guess Mark did not think that the dead rising was special enough to mention?

Yes, there was no expected eclipse. Yet two Roman Historians are referenced as recording darkness, and it was mentioned as present in official records. If anything, the lack of a post-datable eclipse supports the idea of a miracle (or some other mundane event occuring at the serendipitous time, if you really want), seeing that Pagans are said to have noted it.

While we don't have the originals, none of the anti-Christian polemics are said or seen to doubt this event occured. This is in fact why Christian writers mention it in their rebuttals of them, as a support from Pagan sources themselves. So we do have a record, which is frankly about as good as one can expect, seeing the paucity of first century sources coming down to us.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

mara ben serapion also

Unbelievable? Is There Enough Evidence Beyond the Gospels to Make Their Testimony Reliable? | Cold Case Christianity

As far as I know, Ben Serapion does not mention the three hours darkness, does he?

 

[Colter]

If something like this happened on the day Jesus was killed its reasonable to believe that superstitious people would connect the event with the death of their savior.