Everyone Limits the Atonement

[usexpat97]

Is this about Limited atonement per TULIP? Even though I am free will, I never had an issue with Limited Atonement, so much as I had an issue with Irresistible grace.

 

[sawdust]

I'm sorry, I arrived late, what exactly is your question? I'm intrigued but I'm not sure I understand it.

How can unbelievers be raised from the grave to stand before the Lord God for judgement?

That's my question. We are all condemned to death by means of Adam's sin even before we commit any of our own. We know for those of us who believe we have the promise of eternal life. But how can God say one thing ... "sin and you will certainly die" ... and then do another by raising unbelievers from death unless the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" did exactly that. If you can give another reason how the Lord God can legally do that, raise unbelievers from the dead without compromising His word, I'd like to hear it.

 

[zoidar]

If we didn't inherit the sin nature from Adam then it would be like in Heaven when there were some angels fallen and some not. The earth would have been populated by some who never sinned like Christ (in his humanity) and some like Adam who did sin at some point in their life but repented and there would also be those who, like Lucifer, sinned and never repented. For those who never sinned there would be no need to break the power of the sin nature as they would never have acquired one and therefore would have no need to be raised from the dead. (they simply would never die) As for the second lot, we're back to the problem of how can they be judged fairly if their sin condemns them to death (and it does). How could they redeem themselves? Trouble is they can't. (keep in mind these are the ones who repented) They're stuck in death with no way out and they will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Also keep in mind the LoF was made for Lucifer and his angels. It's the place where evil is to be permanently and eternally separated from the righteous. The only way for this lot to come out from death is either God be shown a liar (not possible) and the wages of sin is not death but a temporary absence or The Lord deals with the problem Himself, in this case the Cross which doesn't compromise his word. Christ died because of our sin but was never bound to death because he had no sin nature. When the Father judged him (that is his humanity) it was met with the righteousness that comes by grace through faith for that is how Christ lived his entire life. Hence the grave had no power over him. As for the last lot, God is fair. He will make sure they know why they're condemned eternally and once again the only way they can stand before Him for the Final Judgement is for them to come out from the grave which means their sin must be paid for so they can be raised from the dead. After all, if we sin in the flesh, should we not be judged in the flesh? This way all is made visible to everybody and God is shown conclusively He is right in all he does.

Technically I believe it is truth that breaks the power of the sinful nature for that is how we overcome in our day to day life. The sinful nature which, is in the flesh, deceives us in our thinking. We each have our "fatal flaw". For some it is greed, another pride, another fear etc. which, is not to say we don't suffer from all those things and more but generally speaking there will be one flaw that outweighs the rest so to speak. Our bodies react accordingly in given situations and prompts us to think in terms of error. This is why we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord for He is the truth that counters the error and sets our thinking on the right path and this in turn keeps us from evil.

The Cross broke the power of death to which we were all bound. Sin isn't the big bogey man that people like to make it out. The real problem is evil. Evil is the thing to shun. Sin can be corrected but evil is, in it's nature, an unwillingness to be corrected. Adam's sin was to eat from the forbidden tree but his evil was to reject God's word (truth) and believe the Serpent's lie. There is nothing God can do to redeem or make amends or in anyway counter evil on our behalf for he would have to deny Himself to do so and He cannot do that. God can't reject Himself for us, hence the Lake of Fire. The only thing one can do with evil is to lock it up forever and keep it utterly separate, never to see the light of day (so to speak).

Don't know if this has made things clearer but I'm happy to keep sharing. You might see something I've missed or know something I don't.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Christ love,
P

 

[redleghunter]

Death is the judgement (on sin). You make no sense. All you are doing is repeating what happens when they are raised. You have yet to explain how God can raise them from the dead when He says the wages of sin is death. What reason can God use to justify this action (of raising them)?

Here's the sense of it:

In 1 Thessalonians 4 we have the dead in Christ rising at His coming and then those who are alive and remain then translated.

1 Thessalonians 4: ESV
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Which goes hand in hand with 1 Corinthians 15 which clearly indicates both the dead or asleep in Christ and those who remain alive at His coming will put off the mortal perishable with the immortal imperishable:

1 Corinthians 15: ESV
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Both passages address those in Christ.

Also mentioned here:

Revelation 20: ESV

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Where are the condemned mentioned?

Revelation 20: ESV
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Don't see the change to imperishable bodies here. John clearly deems those at the GWT judgement as 'dead.' How they are 'reanimated' or what form they take is unknown but they are called dead and not alive in Christ as were the Christians who are addressed in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[sawdust]

Here's the sense of it:

Unfortunately what you said is of no sense. You clearly have not understood the question.

 

[redleghunter]

Unfortunately what you said is of no sense. You clearly have not understood the question.

Ok. Is it your point that the wicked and righteous are raised in the same resurrected form?

 

[sawdust]

Ok. Is it your point that the wicked and righteous are raised in the same resurrected form?

No. I'm not sure how you got that but nevermind. Everyone is raised bodily. These bodies we are in now. Ours (believers) will get a glorified body, transformed in an instant. Unbelievers will remain in their flesh and go into the Lake of Fire like that. It's why it's called the Second Death. They die again physically. They're called "the dead" in the passages you quoted because they are still spiritually dead having never been born again as they didn't believe.

But this has nothing to do with my question. The OP makes the claim that Christ's death wasn't sufficient for the sins of some. Yet the scripture states "He is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world" (Jn.1:29) It doesn't say He only took some of the sin away.

The fact you have misunderstood me means I have failed to be clear with you, so let me try another approach.

If a man is convicted for a crime and is sent to jail for 10 years, you expect him to stay there for 10 years to do his time. If he is let out before then there has to be a good reason. New evidence to prove his innocence or good behaviour but there has to be a legitimate reason for early release. Right?

Now the Lord has said the wages of sin is death therefore all sinners must die and all of us are sinners. All of us are sentenced to death without hope of release. But that is where the Cross comes in. If Christ's death wasn't sufficient to pay for the sins of unbelievers then how can they be released from the prison of death? The Lord must have a legitimate reason to release them. If not the Cross, what then?

Earlier you said they come forth for judgement but that leads into another issue. If that is so, why are their sins not mentioned? Why are they facing the same type of judgement that believers must face, ie. a judgement of works? Surely if their sins are not covered by the Cross the Lord would deal with this issue first just as He did with believers?

 

[redleghunter]

But this has nothing to do with my question. The OP makes the claim that Christ's death wasn't sufficient for the sins of some. Yet the scripture states "He is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world" (Jn.1:29) It doesn't say He only took some of the sin away.

The fact you have misunderstood me means I have failed to be clear with you, so let me try another approach.

My apologies if I was the cause for talking past each other.

Let’s start with what I quoted above. Would not John 1:29 be used for Universal Reconciliation?

 

[sawdust]

My apologies if I was the cause for talking past each other.

Let’s start with what I quoted above. Would not John 1:29 be used for Universal Reconciliation?

No problem ... stuff happens!

Depends what you mean by "Universal Reconciliation"? If by that you mean everyone will eventually have eternal life even if it means first going through the Lake of Fire? (that's how most usually understand Universalism) Then no, Jn.1:29 won't do because it deals only with sin. And I don't believe in Universal Salvation as noted above. I have always said if you go into the LoF it is permanent and without exit.

However, if you want to understand Universal Reconciliation in the way I have been trying to explain it, then it is a start but also is:

2Cor.5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.

Using the old tried and true method ... There stands between God and man the "Big Barrier" of sin. The Cross tore it down for everyone, no-one is excepted, which is why God can raise even unbelievers from the dead and never mention their sins again. Christ atoned for every sin of every person.

 

[redleghunter]

No problem ... stuff happens!

Depends what you mean by "Universal Reconciliation"? If by that you mean everyone will eventually have eternal life even if it means first going through the Lake of Fire? (that's how most usually understand Universalism) Then no, Jn.1:29 won't do because it deals only with sin. And I don't believe in Universal Salvation as noted above. I have always said if you go into the LoF it is permanent and without exit.

However, if you want to understand Universal Reconciliation in the way I have been trying to explain it, then it is a start but also is:

2Cor.5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.

Using the old tried and true method ... There stands between God and man the "Big Barrier" of sin. The Cross tore it down for everyone, no-one is excepted, which is why God can raise even unbelievers from the dead and never mention their sins again. Christ atoned for every sin of every person.

If you are going to explain your view of Universalism we will have to take it to the CCT forum.

I just wanted to understand if that was your view by the quoted verse.

 

[sawdust]

If you are going to explain your view of Universalism we will have to take it to the CCT forum.

I just wanted to understand if that was your view by the quoted verse.

Well it's not, as I stated above.