Everyone Limits the Atonement

[sawdust]

I like your point that God can only raise everyone from the dead if Christ died for all. I like to hear more about your reasoning.

I'm happy to oblige, not sure though exactly what I haven't said already. Maybe if you have a specific question in relation to my previous posts? I might be able to answer. Can't guarantee an answer but I do love questions as they make me think!

 

[zoidar]

I'm happy to oblige, not sure though exactly what I haven't said already. Maybe if you have a specific question in relation to my previous posts? I might be able to answer. Can't guarantee an answer but I do love questions as they make me think!

Sorry for OT!

Christ died for our sins, so you mean since we wouldn't die physically if we never got the sinful nature, it would be impossible to raise a person from the dead without breaking the power of the sinful nature? And that could only be done through the cross. Do I get you correct?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Christ died for our sins, so you mean since we wouldn't die physically if we never got the sinful nature, it would be impossible to raise a person from the dead without breaking the power of the sinful nature? And that could only be done through the cross. Do I get you correct?

If There Was No sin/ sinful nature/ no one would die.

It is the penalty for sin. "Death" is the penalty for sin.

 

[sawdust]

Sorry for OT!

Christ died for our sins, so you mean since we wouldn't die physically if we never got the sinful nature, it would be impossible to raise a person from the dead without breaking the power of the sinful nature? And that could only be done through the cross. Do I get you correct?

If we didn't inherit the sin nature from Adam then it would be like in Heaven when there were some angels fallen and some not. The earth would have been populated by some who never sinned like Christ (in his humanity) and some like Adam who did sin at some point in their life but repented and there would also be those who, like Lucifer, sinned and never repented. For those who never sinned there would be no need to break the power of the sin nature as they would never have acquired one and therefore would have no need to be raised from the dead. (they simply would never die) As for the second lot, we're back to the problem of how can they be judged fairly if their sin condemns them to death (and it does). How could they redeem themselves? Trouble is they can't. (keep in mind these are the ones who repented) They're stuck in death with no way out and they will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Also keep in mind the LoF was made for Lucifer and his angels. It's the place where evil is to be permanently and eternally separated from the righteous. The only way for this lot to come out from death is either God be shown a liar (not possible) and the wages of sin is not death but a temporary absence or The Lord deals with the problem Himself, in this case the Cross which doesn't compromise his word. Christ died because of our sin but was never bound to death because he had no sin nature. When the Father judged him (that is his humanity) it was met with the righteousness that comes by grace through faith for that is how Christ lived his entire life. Hence the grave had no power over him. As for the last lot, God is fair. He will make sure they know why they're condemned eternally and once again the only way they can stand before Him for the Final Judgement is for them to come out from the grave which means their sin must be paid for so they can be raised from the dead. After all, if we sin in the flesh, should we not be judged in the flesh? This way all is made visible to everybody and God is shown conclusively He is right in all he does.

Technically I believe it is truth that breaks the power of the sinful nature for that is how we overcome in our day to day life. The sinful nature which, is in the flesh, deceives us in our thinking. We each have our "fatal flaw". For some it is greed, another pride, another fear etc. which, is not to say we don't suffer from all those things and more but generally speaking there will be one flaw that outweighs the rest so to speak. Our bodies react accordingly in given situations and prompts us to think in terms of error. This is why we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord for He is the truth that counters the error and sets our thinking on the right path and this in turn keeps us from evil.

The Cross broke the power of death to which we were all bound. Sin isn't the big bogey man that people like to make it out. The real problem is evil. Evil is the thing to shun. Sin can be corrected but evil is, in it's nature, an unwillingness to be corrected. Adam's sin was to eat from the forbidden tree but his evil was to reject God's word (truth) and believe the Serpent's lie. There is nothing God can do to redeem or make amends or in anyway counter evil on our behalf for he would have to deny Himself to do so and He cannot do that. God can't reject Himself for us, hence the Lake of Fire. The only thing one can do with evil is to lock it up forever and keep it utterly separate, never to see the light of day (so to speak).

Don't know if this has made things clearer but I'm happy to keep sharing. You might see something I've missed or know something I don't.

 

[redleghunter]

I already said why they are being released (to be judged), I asked "how". What is the basis for God's action to release them? If Chris't sacrifice did not fully cover everyone's sins, then God has no legal grounds to raise anyone from the dead.

How you get what the unsaved will look like from what I said has me scratching my head. That is moving onto the Resurrection. We are talking about being raised from the dead. The very first part of the process. God doesn't raise glorified bodies from the earth, He raises the one's we're in then transforms them, that is for believers, unbelievers don't get that. Nevertheless, everyone is still raised bodily from the dead.

It's not both, if it were then Christ's death would have been a huge failure because He cannot die for evil. If the Lake of Fire was the consequence of sin then there was no need to hold people in Sheol for a time. You don't seem to be understanding the nature of evil or the relationship between evil and sin. The wages of sin is death, yet it does hold true that if Christ had not died then all of us would end up in the LoF by default when death is thrown in there. Now that would be a travesty of justice! Adam's sin made us sinners, it did not make us evil. Evil is learned, not made and the LoF is the eternal prison for evil.

Jesus rose from the dead conquering sin and death right?

 

[sawdust]

Jesus rose from the dead conquering sin and death right?

Only for some according to you. The rest are escapees or something, I'm not sure how you think they got out of death which, is my point all along. How can unbelievers be raised from the grave to stand before the Lord God for judgement? What is the basis for this "escape from death"? That's my question which you didn't answer.

edit: for grammar

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only for some according to you. The rest are escapees or something, I'm not sure how you think they got out of death which, my is my point all along. How can unbelievers be raised from the grave to stand before the Lord God for judgement? What is the basis for this "escape from death"? That's my question which you didn't answer.

Look at it this way, perhaps. If God did not care to save anyone , then , being a just God,
EVERYONE WHO WAS BURIED through all history of the world,

would be raised up on the last day to face judgment before all in the heavenlies - faithful, righteous , true JUDGMENT ...
everyone would be condemned and cast in the lake of fire

the lake of fire that was made for hasatan and his angels who rebelled with him.

 

[sawdust]

Look at it this way, perhaps. If God did not care to save anyone , then , being a just God,
EVERYONE WHO WAS BURIED through all history of the world,

would be raised up on the last day to face judgment before all in the heavenlies - faithful, righteous , true JUDGMENT ...
everyone would be condemned and cast in the lake of fire

the lake of fire that was made for hasatan and his angels who rebelled with him.

There is no question He is a just God and what makes Him just is He always keeps His word but (by your statement) you want Him to ignore His own word and raise everyone from the dead even when He said if you sin, you die. There was no proviso to this statement. There is no "chance card" attached to this. You sin, you die, end of story.

What makes you think everyone would be condemned and thrown in the Lake of Fire? This is the whole point. If all of us were given the same opportunity as Adam and Eve, there is every reason to believe that the majority of the human race would not have sinned just as two thirds of the angels never sinned. Yet, because of Adam's sin we are all bound to death. That is incredibly unfair by anyone's standard. In fact, unbelievers use this argument to impugn God's integrity. However it has no defence because of the Cross and what's more, it was the plan prior to Adam's sin, so the Lord had already dealt with the issue.

People do not go into the LoF because of sin. The wages of sin is death not the LoF. They go into the LoF because they have rejected the Truth who is Christ and have shown (by their life on earth), they will always reject Him, hence the need to be permanently separated.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is no question He is a just God and what makes Him just is He always keeps His word but (by your statement) you want Him to ignore His own word and raise everyone from the dead even when He said if you sin, you die.

Why or who confused you so much about this simple to understand Scripture ?

Perhaps if you let us know where you were taught this way, it would be much much easier to help UNlearn it, as it has confused you so much .......

 

[redleghunter]

Only for some according to you. The rest are escapees or something, I'm not sure how you think they got out of death which, is my point all along. How can unbelievers be raised from the grave to stand before the Lord God for judgement? What is the basis for this "escape from death"? That's my question which you didn't answer.

edit: for grammar

Those condemned without Christ are part of the second resurrection not the first. We don’t know much about what form they will be in. See Revelation 20

 

[sawdust]

Why or who confused you so much about this simple to understand Scripture ?

Perhaps if you let us know where you were taught this way, it would be much much easier to help UNlearn it, as it has confused you so much .......

I'm not confused. I understand everything I've said. I wouldn't go projecting your own confusion onto me.

 

[sawdust]

Those condemned without Christ are part of the second resurrection not the first. We don’t know much about what form they will be in. See Revelation 20

So you admit they are raised from the dead but you have yet to answer the question what is the basis God uses to raise them. If not the Cross then what?

 

[redleghunter]

So you admit they are raised from the dead but you have yet to answer the question what is the basis God uses to raise them. If not the Cross then what?

Judgement. That much is clear.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Remember these posts ? (partial here)

#37 - sawdust
I didn't see the connection you were trying to make. The fact that Adam died when he ate from the tree tells me that God's word is true.


#385 - sawdust
According to the blurb on him he's a psychologist. Not one word he has ever spent time studying the languages (Hebrew or Greek), let alone theology. I think I prefer to believe my pastors word on the subject who has studied the languages ...

 

[BobRyan]

Having a sinful nature means we are wrong (in comparison to how God originally created humans), it does not mean we are bent toward evil. We are genetically corrupt and spiritually dead. Being spiritually dead means we have no capacity whatsoever to know God even exists. .

you just contradicted yourself. One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil.

That person "does not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-9

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Eph 2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


The Sinful Nature defined
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

It is the condemned "in harmony with Satan" state of man's nature from birth.

I didn't contradict myself, you just don't understand the difference between being born evil and being born a sinner.

One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil. See the texts already quoted above for details.

The first is impossible, the second is guaranteed. At the moment of birth we have no knowledge of evil whatsoever so we cannot be "bent" in either direction.

On the contrary - even infants express rage.

The sinful nature as Romans 3 and Eph 2 point out - is a bent to sin in which we follow the dictates of Satan. Ephesians 2 is correct. It is not just a case of "obeying sin" as Romans 6 points out - it is slavery to sin.

 

[bling]

One of the petals in Calvinism's TULIP is Limited Atonement. This is the doctrine that Jesus died to atone for the sins of a limited amount of people - namely his elect. We say that atonement is limited in scope. But at the same time, we acknowledge that the atonement is unlimited in its efficacy. All those for whom Jesus died will certainly be saved. In a sense, all the elect were saved once and for all at Calvary and the rest of salvation history is simply application.

Those who reject Limited Atonement also limit the atonement. They don't limit it in terms of scope. They say that Jesus died to atone for the sins of every person. But they do limit the atonement in terms of its efficacy. They deny that all those for whom Jesus died will certainly be saved. His atoning sacrifice is not 100% efficacious. His sacrifice only makes it possible for people to be saved. So in this view, the atonement is limited in its effects.

The third option, universalism, we will not consider in this thread as universalism is not a Christian view.

So how do you limit the atonement?

There is a third way of describing atonement which is neither the standard doctrines of: limited and unlimited atonement.

Both these “doctrines” have the atonement process completed with Christ going to the cross, but Christ going to the cross is only the sacrifice portion of the atonement process leaving off man’s requirement. If we go back to the atonement process for the atonement of unintentional sins (minor sins) in Lev. 5 we see the following:

Lev. 5:6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord…

The follow are to be brought: a lamb, two birds or a bag of flour depending on what you can afford (the hardship on the sinners were to be somewhat equalized).

Note: the sins are exactly the same and God would not place greater “value” on a rich person over a poor person, so the hardship (penalty on the sinner is being at best equalized).

This hardship would be disciplining for very minor sins, for the sinner, so the atonement process at least for minor (unintentional sins) includes a disciplining element.

If we extrapolate up to rebellious disobedience directly against God (which all mature adults do) the penalty would be huge (cruel torture and crucifixion on a cross) which we all can experience by being crucified with Christ.

It is not that atonement has some “limit” to it or the sacrifice of Christ on the cross did not satisfy the requirement of the atonement sacrifice. Atonement is not completed if the sinner does not allow him/herself to go through a severe hardship/penalty/disciplining, by being crucified with Christ.

 

[sawdust]

Remember these posts ? (partial here)

#37 - sawdust
I didn't see the connection you were trying to make. The fact that Adam died when he ate from the tree tells me that God's word is true.


#385 - sawdust
According to the blurb on him he's a psychologist. Not one word he has ever spent time studying the languages (Hebrew or Greek), let alone theology. I think I prefer to believe my pastors word on the subject who has studied the languages ...

I think you really are the one confused. I didn't make post#37 and there is no post#385. And if you meant 38 or 85 I didn't make those either. I do learn from someone who teaches from the original languages by the way.

 

[sawdust]

Judgement. That much is clear.

Death is the judgement (on sin). You make no sense. All you are doing is repeating what happens when they are raised. You have yet to explain how God can raise them from the dead when He says the wages of sin is death. What reason can God use to justify this action (of raising them)?

 

[sawdust]

you just contradicted yourself. One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil.

That person "does not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-9

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Eph 2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


The Sinful Nature defined
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

It is the condemned "in harmony with Satan" state of man's nature from birth.



One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil. See the texts already quoted above for details.



On the contrary - even infants express rage.

The sinful nature as Romans 3 and Eph 2 point out - is a bent to sin in which we follow the dictates of Satan. Ephesians 2 is correct. It is not just a case of "obeying sin" as Romans 6 points out - it is slavery to sin.

Interesting. Now you have changed your wording. It was a bent to evil before, now it is a bent to sin. You were born knowing the dictates of Satan? You knew a whole lot more than I ever did when I was born.

To be honest I really don't know why you're arguing with me. I've already said we are born spiritually dead with a corrupted flesh and it's impossible to know God. How do you think such a position is going to end up? Exactly as the verses you have quoted. We are not born evil is all I'm saying. There are those who don't understand this. They think because we are born sinners we must also necessarily be born evil. It is not so. Good and evil is learnt. No-one is born with the knowledge of good and/or evil.

 

[mark kennedy]

Only for some according to you. The rest are escapees or something, I'm not sure how you think they got out of death which, is my point all along. How can unbelievers be raised from the grave to stand before the Lord God for judgement? What is the basis for this "escape from death"? That's my question which you didn't answer.

edit: for grammar

I'm sorry, I arrived late, what exactly is your question? I'm intrigued but I'm not sure I understand it.