Everyone Limits the Atonement

[sawdust]

Universalism can only be discussed in Controversial Christian Theology.

I'm not a Universalist. Christ died for the forgiveness of sins. All sins are forgiven. That forgiveness is in Christ. Those who belong to Christ are saved (through faith) from eternal condemnation. Those who don't belong to Him are released from Death (which is the first death) to face the judgement that shows why they must be condemned eternally and endure the Second Death.

If Christ has not covered everyone's sins then explain how unbelievers can be released from the grave to face judgement? God's word cannot be untrue and if He raises anyone without the application of Christ's sacrifice then He lied about sin.

Keep in mind the wages of sin is death, not eternal condemnation as you seem to imply.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If Christ has not covered everyone's sins then explain how unbelievers can be released from the grave to face judgement? God's word cannot be untrue and if He raises anyone without the application of Christ's sacrifice then He lied about sin.

Read what the Bible says, listen to others who now know it and post it,
and don't let heresies like univeralism infect your thinking.
(nor anti-Scripture beliefs that are asociated with univeralism)

God says in the Bible HE raises everyone for judgment (even believers) - the unbelievers to be cast into the lake of fire to suffer and die the second death as He has appointed.
The believers who are saved are resurrected alive to eternal life
are raised to rejoice with and in Christ Jesus
never to die again, ever, and no suffering, no tears....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The third option, universalism, we will not consider in this thread as universalism is not a Christian view.

True , but 'they' are sometimes allowed to post in some sections.

'They' even have some very long deceptive threads.

 

[redleghunter]

If Christ has not covered everyone's sins then explain how unbelievers can be released from the grave to face judgement?

To be judged.

God's word cannot be untrue and if He raises anyone without the application of Christ's sacrifice then He lied about sin.

Paul says when we see Him we will be like Him. Is it your point the damned will be like Him?

Keep in mind the wages of sin is death, not eternal condemnation as you seem to imply.

It’s both as Romans 5 makes clear. Salvation is eternal life

Romans 5: NASB

17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessg leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

Well it saves all those who accept no matter that many others reject -- it still works.

So it’s efficacious for those who accept but not for those who reject...? using the Arminian solution that is.

That means there is a limit.

 

[redleghunter]

We are warned not to be like Alexander and Hymaeus who shipwrecked their faith. How can the elect fall away?

-CryptoLutheran

Used a lot but we don’t know if they were a total loss.

1 Timothy 1:

18This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. (NASB)

Seems the two although shipwrecked in Faith were turned over for chastisement.

I would say we don’t know enough to condemn them as lost elect which would be an oxymoron.

 

[zoidar]

I don't know if everyone understands this, but Jesus is a saviour king. He came to save, he came to win over the powers of darkness, to undo the power of Satan. Christ is victorious! Limited victory over Satan? I think not!

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not confused about what the word efficacious means. I'm stating, quite plainly I think, that what Christ did is efficacious for all. ALL are saved in Christ

No one in the lake of fire is "saved in Christ".
Matthew 7 - the "many" go to the lake of fire - second death.
Romans 10 this is what "results in salvation"

Rom 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

NT writers never say the lost "are saved" without accepting the Gospel, they are in the lost state.. not in the saved state.

 

[BobRyan]

Leviticus 16 is limited atonement. It was only for God’s chosen Israel.

By that logic the "New Covenant" is also limited because it says it is for "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". That logic does not work.

 

[BobRyan]

Having a sinful nature means we are wrong (in comparison to how God originally created humans), it does not mean we are bent toward evil. We are genetically corrupt and spiritually dead. Being spiritually dead means we have no capacity whatsoever to know God even exists. .

you just contradicted yourself. One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil.

That person "does not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-9

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Eph 2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


The Sinful Nature defined
Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

It is the condemned "in harmony with Satan" state of man's nature from birth.

 

[BobRyan]

A rejection of salvation by grace alone isn't an option for a Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheram

Lutherans are not all predestined to be saints - as can be seen by those that have been convicted of crimes etc and I don't know of any Lutheran that would claim that all Lutherans are saved. Such a statement is not true about any denomination on planet Earth.

 

[redleghunter]

By that logic the "New Covenant" is also limited because it says it is for "the house of Israel and the house of Judah". That logic does not work.

You had it about right. The New Coveant in Christ’s blood is limited to those in Coveant with Him.

 

[redleghunter]

Lutherans are not all predestined to be saints - as can be seen by those that have been convicted of crimes etc and I don't know of any Lutheran that would claim that all Lutherans are saved. Such a statement is not true about any denomination on planet Earth.

The New Birth for Lutherans is their water baptism. They believe people can deny this New Birth baptism or baptismal regeneration.

 

[sawdust]

Read what the Bible says, listen to others who now know it and post it,
and don't let heresies like univeralism infect your thinking.

God says in the Bible HE raises everyone for judgment (even believers) - the unbelievers to be cast into the lake of fire to suffer and die the second death as He has appointed.
The believers who are saved are resurrected alive to eternal life
are raised to rejoice with and in Christ Jesus
never to die again, ever, and no suffering, no tears....

Are you kidding me? I said in the very post you quoted I'm not a universalist. You act as if I said nothing. I also said basically exactly what you said here that he raises everyone, yet when you say it, it's ok?

Once again. Everyone is raised from the dead and the only reason this can happen is because Christ died for ALL sin. Some will enter into eternal life and some will enter eternal condemnation.

When Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire it will be completely empty. Christ's work on the Cross did it's job fully for everyone.

 

[BobRyan]

A rejection of salvation by grace alone isn't an option for a Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheram

Lutherans are not all predestined to be saints - as can be seen by those that have been convicted of crimes etc and I don't know of any Lutheran that would claim that all Lutherans are saved. Such a statement is not true about any denomination on planet Earth.

The New Birth for Lutherans is their water baptism. They believe people can deny this New Birth baptism or baptismal regeneration.

So they do not believe in OSAS. In which case rejection of the Gospel after being baptized "is an option" for them ... just not the right option. So it could be said of those Christians in all denominations.

 

[redleghunter]

Lutherans are not all predestined to be saints - as can be seen by those that have been convicted of crimes etc and I don't know of any Lutheran that would claim that all Lutherans are saved. Such a statement is not true about any denomination on planet Earth.



So they do not believe in OSAS. In which case rejection of the Gospel after being baptized "is an option" for them ... just not the right option. So it could be said of those Christians in all denominations.

Might have missed my point. They believe actual baptism is the spiritual regeneration.

 

[sawdust]

To be judged.

Paul says when we see Him we will be like Him. Is it your point the damned will be like Him?

It’s both as Romans 5 makes clear. Salvation is eternal life.

I already said why they are being released (to be judged), I asked "how". What is the basis for God's action to release them? If Chris't sacrifice did not fully cover everyone's sins, then God has no legal grounds to raise anyone from the dead.

How you get what the unsaved will look like from what I said has me scratching my head. That is moving onto the Resurrection. We are talking about being raised from the dead. The very first part of the process. God doesn't raise glorified bodies from the earth, He raises the one's we're in then transforms them, that is for believers, unbelievers don't get that. Nevertheless, everyone is still raised bodily from the dead.

It's not both, if it were then Christ's death would have been a huge failure because He cannot die for evil. If the Lake of Fire was the consequence of sin then there was no need to hold people in Sheol for a time. You don't seem to be understanding the nature of evil or the relationship between evil and sin. The wages of sin is death, yet it does hold true that if Christ had not died then all of us would end up in the LoF by default when death is thrown in there. Now that would be a travesty of justice! Adam's sin made us sinners, it did not make us evil. Evil is learned, not made and the LoF is the eternal prison for evil.

 

[zoidar]

I already said why they are being released (to be judged), I asked "how". What is the basis for God's action to release them? If Chris't sacrifice did not fully cover everyone's sins, then God has no legal grounds to raise anyone from the dead.

How you get what the unsaved will look like from what I said has me scratching my head. That is moving onto the Resurrection. We are talking about being raised from the dead. The very first part of the process. God doesn't raise glorified bodies from the earth, He raises the one's we're in then transforms them, that is for believers, unbelievers don't get that. Nevertheless, everyone is still raised bodily from the dead.

It's not both, if it were then Christ's death would have been a huge failure because He cannot die for evil. If the Lake of Fire was the consequence of sin then there was no need to hold people in Sheol for a time. You don't seem to be understanding the nature of evil or the relationship between evil and sin. The wages of sin is death, yet it does hold true that if Christ had not died then all of us would end up in the LoF by default when death is thrown in there. Now that would be a travesty of justice! Adam's sin made us sinners, it did not make us evil. Evil is learned, not made and the LoF is the eternal prison for evil.

I like your point that God can only raise everyone from the dead if Christ died for all. I like to hear more about your reasoning.

 

[sawdust]

you just contradicted yourself. One who is spiritually dead to Christ is the slave of sin, of sinning, a slave of the devil.

I didn't contradict myself, you just don't understand the difference between being born evil and being born a sinner. The first is impossible, the second is guaranteed. At the moment of birth we have no knowledge of evil whatsoever so we cannot be "bent" in either direction. We will go on to learn evil (usually the hard way) because we are spiritually dead (ignorant of God who is the Truth) but to say we are born "bent to evil" is not true.

 

[zoidar]

I like your point that God can only raise everyone from the dead if Christ died for all. I like to hear more about your reasoning.

Thanks for prayers Yeshuaslavejeff! Not sure why you pray for me though.