Everyone Limits the Atonement

[Tree of Life]

Everyone is saved from death which, is what Jesus died to save us from. If His death was limited as you suggest then not all would be raised from death. As it is though, all people will be raised from death, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death.

Jesus did not just die to save people from physical death. He died to save people from the wrath of God and the pains of hell - which is eternal death. Those who suffer eternal death are not saved by Jesus. They are lost.

 

[sawdust]

Jesus did not just die to save people from physical death. He died to save people from the wrath of God and the pains of hell - which is eternal death. Those who suffer eternal death are not saved by Jesus. They are lost.

He died for sin, the sin of the world. Sin leads to death, not hell. (assuming by hell you mean the lake of fire). Christ's death is how everyone can escape Sheol (Death). If it were not so, all those who remain spiritually dead in Sheol would be thrown into Hell (aka lake of fire) when Death itself is thrown in there and would not face judgement and never know why they are there in the LoF.

 

[Tree of Life]

He died for sin, the sin of the world. Sin leads to death, not hell. (assuming by hell you mean the lake of fire). Christ's death is how everyone can escape Sheol (Death). If it were not so, all those who remain spiritually dead in Sheol would be thrown into Hell (aka lake of fire) when Death itself is thrown in there and would not face judgement and never know why they are there in the LoF.

So how does a person get to Hell if not by sin?

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is universal atonement in Christ. That does not mean all will be saved, but all are included in what Christ has done. As a Lutheran I reject both the Calvinist and Arminian systems. Christ died for all, all are included, His work is perfectly efficacious for all, but yet not all necessarily will be saved. Yes, this is a paradox.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sawdust]

By rejecting the Truth, who is Christ. Their works are judged and the one work they failed to do was to believe in the Lord Jesus. People go to Hell because they are evil, not because they are sinners. All sinners are raised from the dead because Christ died for all the sin of the world.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is universal atonement in Christ. That does not mean all will be saved, but all are included in what Christ has done. As a Lutheran I reject both the Calvinist and Arminian systems. Christ died for all, all are included, His work is perfectly efficacious for all, but yet not all necessarily will be saved. Yes, this is a paradox.

-CryptoLutheran

When you say "not all" you imply some sort of limitation. Your answer sounds like the Arminian position to me. It does not at all sound like Luther.

 

[Tree of Life]

By rejecting the Truth, who is Christ. Their works are judged and the one work they failed to do was to believe in the Lord Jesus. People go to Hell because they are evil, not because they are sinners. All sinners are raised from the dead because Christ died for all the sin of the world.

Nevermind.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

His atoning sacrifice is not 100% efficacious.

I do not believe in limited atonement and I do not believe that His sacrifice is less than 100% for the entire world. This is where free will comes in. It is God's will that all will come to know Him however it must become our will to recognize this precious gift He gave to all.

 

[Tree of Life]

I do not believe in limited atonement and I do not believe that His sacrifice is less than 100% for the entire world. This is where free will comes in. It is God's will that all will come to know Him however it must become our will to recognize this precious gift He gave to all.

So the atonement is limited in its effects. It opens up the possibility of salvation, but it does not necessarily save. Jesus died for all, but not all are necessarily saved. Yet all can possibly be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

God loved the world in this way that he sent his only Son.

"God so loved the World that He GAVE " -- yes "really"
"That whosoever believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life" -- 'yes really'

This the part where Arminians affirm "yes really" and Calvinism wishes to parse terms and equivocate

 

[BobRyan]

So the atonement is limited in its effects. It opens up the possibility of salvation, but it does not necessarily save. Jesus died for all, but not all are necessarily saved. Yet all can possibly be saved.

It saves for those who avail themselves of it.

The airplane flies - but those who do not get on the plane do not fly. Calvinism likes to spin that into "well then the airplane does not really fly". It makes no sense.

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

Honestly, when I became a Calvinist, limited atonement was probably the hardest one to accept, and then became all the more logical to me — if Christ paid for the sins of every single person without exception, then it would follow that nobody would go to Hell, as He bore those sins on Himself, including the sin of unbelief, as the substitutionary atonement for us (2 Corinthians 5:12).

Furthermore, it says in Matthew 1:21 that Jesus would "save His people from their sins", not attempt to and fail greatly (as the majority of the world is non-Christian and damned, per Mark 16:16).

You must understand that the "whole world" and "all" is almost never referring to literally every single human on the planet. Jesus told His disciples that they would be hated by all for His namesake, but that obviously didn't include primitive hunter-gatherers from the far reaches of the jungle who would never even meet them.

No, it meant all kinds of people, from all social statutes, be they those in power and the wealthy, or the middle and working-class, and even peasants would mock them for following our Lord Jesus.

Nevertheless, God bless my Arminian brothers and sisters, I think you're wrong, but I love you!

 

[ViaCrucis]

When you say "not all" you imply some sort of limitation. Your answer sounds like the Arminian position to me. It does not at all sound like Luther.

Except Christ's work is unlimited and efficacious for all, not on the basis of our choice but His universal love and grace. Christ died for all. Period.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

Honestly, when I became a Calvinist, limited atonement was probably the hardest one to accept, and then became all the more logical to me — if Christ paid for the sins of every single person without exception, then it would follow that nobody would go to Hell, as He bore those sins on Himself,

Which only works if you ignore God's own teaching on what "Atonement means" as He outlines it in His "Day of Atonement" teaching in Lev 16 where it is BOTH the work of Christ as "sin offering" AND the work of Christ as "High Priest" that is needed for the full Bible scope of the term "Atonement".

But Calvinism uses the "limited view" of Atonement - where Lev 16 "ends with the sin offering slain" - that is where Calvinism falls short. Paul says "the main point" Hebrews 8:1 is Christ's ongoing work as High Priest.

 

[sawdust]

Nevermind.

Nevermind? Really? What, truth doesn't matter?

Do you not understand sin is the result of evil? No-one is born evil (or good for that matter) but we learn good and evil which, is how the Lord God could put the tree in the garden in the first place. All of us are born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin but not all of us would have chosen to sin as Adam did had we each had our chance in the Garden and some would not have repented as Adam did but like Lucifer, would have remained unrepentant. After all, that is who the Lake of Fire was originally created for. Men who reject truth and love lies will join him.

Jesus holds the keys to death and hades. His death allows Him to lawfully unlock those doors and allow everyone who has ever entered to come out (at the right time). Not all will come out to receive eternal life but all will come out.

 

[BobRyan]

Nevermind? Really? What, truth doesn't matter?

Do you not understand sin is the result of evil? No-one is born evil (or good for that matter) but we learn good and evil which,

Romans 3 says all are born with a sinful nature - a "bent" toward evil.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So the atonement is limited in its effects.

No. For example, a person can be thirsty. He/she can drink water to quench it or he/she can not drink it and die from dehydration. Either way the water is the same. It will quench the thirst thus the effect exists for all. The effect is not limited, it is the solution. Just as Christ gave us living waters to drink from. Some drink and some do not. The effect remains the same salvation.

 

[zoidar]

One of the petals in Calvinism's TULIP is Limited Atonement. This is the doctrine that Jesus died to atone for the sins of a limited amount of people - namely his elect. We say that atonement is limited in scope. But at the same time, we acknowledge that the atonement is unlimited in its efficacy. All those for whom Jesus died will certainly be saved. In a sense, all the elect were saved once and for all at Calvary and the rest of salvation history is simply application.

Those who reject Limited Atonement also limit the atonement. They don't limit it in terms of scope. They say that Jesus died to atone for the sins of every person. But they do limit the atonement in terms of its efficacy. They deny that all those for whom Jesus died will certainly be saved. His atoning sacrifice is not 100% efficacious. His sacrifice only makes it possible for people to be saved. So in this view, the atonement is limited in its effects.

The third option, universalism, we will not consider in this thread as universalism is not a Christian view.

So how do you limit the atonement?

What do you mean by the atonement being unlimited in its efficacy? In what way would that differ to let say arminans?

My own view is that Christ is an atoning sacrifice to atone anyone and everyone who believes. Mankind was set free from being under the rule of Satan, so Jesus won a complete victory for every man, woman and child through the crucifixion and resurrection. Christ is victorious over all evil and sin in the whole world.

 

[Not David]

Jesus is the Savior of all men because he liberated people from death.
Also God cannot experience "wrath" because it will assume this is something that changed from God's character when humans were created and God does not change.

 

[sawdust]

Romans 3 says all are born with a sinful nature - a "bent" toward evil.

Having a sinful nature means we are wrong (in comparison to how God originally created humans), it does not mean we are bent toward evil. We are genetically corrupt and spiritually dead. Being spiritually dead means we have no capacity whatsoever to know God even exists. He makes Himself known to us through the creation (first contact so to speak) from there, if we are positive to His lead, He will continue to reveal Himself to us.

We are born wrong and ignorant, not evil. Evil is the rejection of truth and replacing it with a lie. This is what leads to sin. That process cannot happen unless first God reveals Himself. Good and evil cannot be created (inately) it can only be learned.