Everyone is fated

[Peter John]

Yes, everyone is where we are supposed to be, either as predestined believers, (even with struggles with sin, and/or persecution), & those who are predetermined or ordained to either be atheists, unbelievers, or those who think their believers, but follow the 'other Jesus' of 2Cor11v4.
Let me clarify, I'm not a Calvinist, Berean, Arminian or any other 'ist', 'ism', or follower of anybody, other than Christ.
I will try to keep this post short, so not to bore folks, & will add more later.

It's important first to define the words predestination & freewill, & see how they measure up to scripture. Pro'orizo is the Greek - pro is pre or before & 'orizo is where we get horizon from, which is the division of day/night (light/dark), meaning God's boundary, & those who are bound in His light of Truth. If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so refers to God's elect people, from Adam to Christ's return.
Freewill is only in the old testament, & is defined as vowed or voluntary offerings, made in the temple, & that's it! If you want to ignore the biblical definition, & follow the dictionary definition, which is "The ability to make a choice without outside coercion, & is not determined by physical forces, fate, or God." Good luck justifying that you have it, with God!

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Let me clarify, I'm not a Calvinist, Berean, Arminian or any other 'ist', 'ism', or follower of anybody, other than Christ.

WOKE!!!

 

[HTacianas]

Yes, everyone is where we are supposed to be, either as predestined believers, (even with struggles with sin, and/or persecution), & those who are predetermined or ordained to either be atheists, unbelievers, or those who think their believers, but follow the 'other Jesus' of 2Cor11v4.
Let me clarify, I'm not a Calvinist, Berean, Arminian or any other 'ist', 'ism', or follower of anybody, other than Christ.
I will try to keep this post short, so not to bore folks, & will add more later.

It's important first to define the words predestination & freewill, & see how they measure up to scripture. Pro'orizo is the Greek - pro is pre or before & 'orizo is where we get horizon from, which is the division of day/night (light/dark), meaning God's boundary, & those who are bound in His light of Truth. If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so refers to God's elect people, from Adam to Christ's return.
Freewill is only in the old testament, & is defined as vowed or voluntary offerings, made in the temple, & that's it! If you want to ignore the biblical definition, & follow the dictionary definition, which is "The ability to make a choice without outside coercion, & is not determined by physical forces, fate, or God." Good luck justifying that you have it, with God!

If we were predestined in the strictest sense we would not be told:

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

How are we to make our election sure if our election is already determined?

 

[Peter John]

If we were predestined in the strictest sense we would not be told:

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

How are we to make our election sure if our election is already determined?

As 'therefore' starts the verse, it refers back to adding to our faith 7 things, which is over a lifetime of conforming to Christ's likeness. Rom8v29. Dying to self daily, & living by His Spirit, is our growth in faith. Lk9v23 & 1Cor15v31.

 

[tturt]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This is it -
So the Holy Spirit draws us and even though God wants everyone to repent, He knows who will follow Him. We serve Him as the result of being His.

 

[Peter John]

WOKE!!!

Is that you waking up, now you 'woke' up, I don't know!

 

[HTacianas]

As 'therefore' starts the verse, it refers back to adding to our faith 7 things, which is over a lifetime of conforming to Christ's likeness. Rom8v29. Dying to self daily, & living by His Spirit, is our growth in faith. Lk9v23 & 1Cor15v31.

Yes. You're right. Those are the things we should do to make our election sure.

 

[Peter John]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting ."

This is it -
So the Holy Spirit draws us and even though God wants everyone to repent, He knows who will follow Him. We serve Him as the result of being His.

When those verses say 'draw', they can also mean drag, whereby you have no option but to comply with God & His Holy Spirit, you got no choice, that has been done by God, Jn15v16.

The 'so' in 3v16, is in a particular way God loved His orderly arrangement (world), & the 'whosoever' is 'pas o', meaning 'the all' (the believing all).

 

[tturt]

God wants all but doesnt make us "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13

I don't believe that everyone is saved. It's God's plan and we can decide to follow Him.

 

[Peter John]

God wants all but doesnt make us "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom 10:13

If you go one post back the same 'whosoever' is 'the believing all' (elect), & don't forget the next verse "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"
There is no 'get saved', it is sozo in Greek, & means being taken from point A to point B, & being saved is over a lifetime, not saying some invitation prayer, & becoming 'saved'.

 

[tturt]

It is a process and all plans have a beginning.

For salvation By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation (blood baptism)
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27, +++)
Also, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Water and Spirit baptism follows - not in a set order:

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, everyone is where we are supposed to be, either as predestined believers, (even with struggles with sin, and/or persecution), & those who are predetermined or ordained to either be atheists, unbelievers, or those who think their believers, but follow the 'other Jesus' of 2Cor11v4.
Let me clarify, I'm not a Calvinist, Berean, Arminian or any other 'ist', 'ism', or follower of anybody, other than Christ.

And yet Jesus didn't say, "everyone is where they are supposed to be". He said "repent", Mark 1:15, "come to me", Matthew 11:28, "believe in me", John 6:40, and made it clear that those who did not come to him and repent would not have eternal life.

It's important first to define the words predestination & freewill, & see how they measure up to scripture. Pro'orizo is the Greek - pro is pre or before & 'orizo is where we get horizon from, which is the division of day/night (light/dark), meaning God's boundary,

A horizon isn't the division of day and night.
And who says that God has boundaries? He sees everything.

If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so refers to God's elect people, from Adam to Christ's return.

That's your interpretation.

Freewill is only in the old testament, & is defined as vowed or voluntary offerings, made in the temple, & that's it!

Free will means we have a choice, and are not forced to take an action/behave in a certain way.
Adam was not forced to eat the fruit.
The Israelites were not forced to break the covenant and worship idols - that's why Joshua said "Choose this day whom you will serve", Joshua 24: 15.
The disciples were not forced to follow Jesus.
The rich young ruler, when he walked away, was not forced to return.
People are not either forced, nor predestined, to believe in Jesus, and if they were predestined NOT to believe in Jesus, then why would God punish them for doing something which he had always planned for them to do?

 

[Peter John]

And yet Jesus didn't say, "everyone is where they are supposed to be". He said "repent", Mark 1:15, "come to me", Matthew 11:28, "believe in me", John 6:40, and made it clear that those who did not come to him and repent would not have eternal life.

I didn't say Yeshua said that. Rom2v4 says 'the goodness of God leads you to repentance?' so repent, believe & come is all part of God drawing us to him.

A horizon isn't the division of day and night.
And who says that God has boundaries? He sees everything.

So can you see the horizon at night, like you can in the day? God's boundary of believers in the old testament were in the land of Israel, & since the new testament, His gentile elect, are spiritual Israel, as Israel is 'the apple of His eye'.

Free will means we have a choice, and are not forced to take an action/behave in a certain way.
Adam was not forced to eat the fruit.
The Israelites were not forced to break the covenant and worship idols - that's why Joshua said "Choose this day whom you will serve", Joshua 24: 15.
The disciples were not forced to follow Jesus.
The rich young ruler, when he walked away, was not forced to return.
People are not either forced, nor predestined, to believe in Jesus, and if they were predestined NOT to believe in Jesus, then why would God punish them for doing something which he had always planned for them to do?

So you are believing the dictionary definition, rather than God's Word definition? Adam was not forced, but it was part of the sovereign salvation plan, as Gen2v17 says "for IN THE DAY that you eat of it you shall surely die." Adam was destined, along with Israels rebellion, & God drawing those He wanted as His disciples, including Judas, & his betrayal, Peter & his denial, all was meant to be.
It's impossible to predestine someone NOT to believe, because of its definition, more like ordained.
As far as God punishing, we all deserve hell, but for God's mercy on the few He has chosen, & that's by His Grace. (unmerited favour)

 

[Peter John]

It is a process and all have a beginning.

For salvation By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation (blood baptism)
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27, +++)
Also, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Water and Spirit baptism follows - not in a set order:

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

I'm pleased to see someone believes in blood baptism, we are in the minority, as water baptism was a proselyte process that was added to circumcision & 2 doves sacrifice, to be a citizen of Israel.

 

[tturt]

Also, there are many Scriptures that shows the way we were before Christ such as "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Eph 2:1. Thankfully, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph 2:5

 

[Hazelelponi]

makes sense, very good thread. It helped me with something.

God bless.

 

[Peter John]

makes sense, very good thread. It helped me with something.

God bless.

Great, thanks, hope you get clarity!

 

[Strong in Him]

I didn't say Yeshua said that.

I didn't say that you did.
The title of your thread is "everyone is fated", you started by saying that everyone is where they need to be - and then said that you follow no ideology except Jesus.
I just pointed out that Jesus never said "everyone is where they need to be."

Rom2v4 says 'the goodness of God leads you to repentance?' so repent, believe & come is all part of God drawing us to him.

And yet we still have a choice whether or not to say "yes".
The rich young ruler went to find Jesus because he wanted to find out about eternal life, Luke 18:18 - but he was not forced to do what Jesus told him to do. Ditto the disciples in John 6:66 who turned away from him.

So can you see the horizon at night, like you can in the day?

Maybe, if there's enough light.
But that's not what I said; I said that "horizon" is not the word for day turning to night, as you seem to think it is. A horizon is a far distant point where the land "meets" the sky - as in, "I see a ship on the horizon."
Proverbs 8:27 says "I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep."
Nehemiah 1:9 says "even if your exiled people are on the farthest horizon, I will gather them and bring them ....."

So you are believing the dictionary definition, rather than God's Word definition?

The Bible doesn't define free will - you, yourself, have said that Adam had a choice.

Adam was not forced, but it was part of the sovereign salvation plan,

Really?
God created the world, and humans, declared it all to be very good, Genesis 1:31, and then deliberately planned to mess it up again?
Why was he punished, then, if he was doing what God planned that he should do? He should have been rewarded for, apparently, doing God's will.

as Gen2v17 says "for IN THE DAY that you eat of it you shall surely die."

No, he was stating a fact.
Disobeying God's word meant the relationship they had became broken = separation from God = spiritual death.
God knew that that would happen - and had already provided a Saviour, Genesis 3:15, 1 Peter 1:19-20. That doesn't mean that he planned, or willed, that Adam would disobey him.

Adam was destined, along with Israels rebellion, & God drawing those He wanted as His disciples, including Judas, & his betrayal, Peter & his denial, all was meant to be.

No; God KNEW it would happen - it doesn't mean that it was his will all along.
Like I said, why would he have punished people for doing something that he had already planned, and willed, would happen?
Why expel Adam from the garden and curse him; why not say "well done good and faithful servant"? Why punish the Israelites for sinning and worshipping other gods, if that's what God had actually wanted them to do?

And why create a perfect world and then mess it up? It would be like someone taking time to design the perfect house/dress/car, put a lot of work into it and then set fire to it.

As far as God punishing, we all deserve hell, but for God's mercy on the few He has chosen, & that's by His Grace. (unmerited favour)

That suggests that God created us in his image, declared his creation to be very good, when mankind sinned, said "I suppose I can save a few of you" - and then expects that those who were created in his own image just to be destroyed to realise how merciful he was being!
Jesus told us to love our enemies, Matthew 5:44. He said that it was no good us loving only those who showed love to us, because even the tax collectors did that, Matthew 5:46. Instead we are to be perfect as God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.
The NT says that God is love, 1 John 4:8, and Paul gives us a description of love, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. John says that the cross is the definition of love, 1 John 3:16 - and Paul says that Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.

How is it loving to create someone in your own image and, when they sin, say "sorry, you are not one of those destined to be saved"? How does that action show the love, mercy and perfection of our heavenly Father? If God, our Father, was only prepared to show mercy to those he knew would believe in him, or love only those who would love him, then Jesus was wrong to tell us that God is perfect, and wrong to expect us to do something that God can't.

 

[renniks]

Yes, everyone is where we are supposed to be, either as predestined believers, (even with struggles with sin, and/or persecution), & those who are predetermined or ordained to either be atheists, unbelievers, or those who think their believers, but follow the 'other Jesus' of 2Cor11v4.
Let me clarify, I'm not a Calvinist, Berean, Arminian or any other 'ist', 'ism', or follower of anybody, other than Christ.
I will try to keep this post short, so not to bore folks, & will add more later.

It's important first to define the words predestination & freewill, & see how they measure up to scripture. Pro'orizo is the Greek - pro is pre or before & 'orizo is where we get horizon from, which is the division of day/night (light/dark), meaning God's boundary, & those who are bound in His light of Truth. If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so refers to God's elect people, from Adam to Christ's return.
Freewill is only in the old testament, & is defined as vowed or voluntary offerings, made in the temple, & that's it! If you want to ignore the biblical definition, & follow the dictionary definition, which is "The ability to make a choice without outside coercion, & is not determined by physical forces, fate, or God." Good luck justifying that you have it, with God!

Hogwash.
Just because you have influences on your decisions doesn't make them fated. Determinism is a pagan concept.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Hogwash.
Just because you have influences on your decisions doesn't make them fated. Determinism is a pagan concept.

In other words, God can influence your decisions but not...a lot...or what? Like the influences God allows contribute to your decisions but not enough to make your decisions not free? I’m confused, influences including temperament and environment are the >entire basis< Of every human choice. There isn’t a magic random choice machine in our heads. We decide based on the way God made us, the way sin makes us, and the things that happen around us. None of those things are magically free of God coming from random places. God is the creator. He’s not sitting in heaven watching it all play out hoping we will choose him like he’s on a reality TV show