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Discussion in 'Current News & Events' started by pescador, May 24, 2020.

  1. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I don’t think that logic tracks. If all that’s being said is that churches need to be able assemble, then it’s up to the churches to find a way to do so safely. My local church has been allowed to operate, but we changed how we do it to best follow guidelines.
     
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  3. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    It is propaganda to suggest that those who want to reopen don't love their neighbour. The closers seem to want everything shut down with no discernible criteria for reopening and people can only be deprived of their average lives for so long.

    It is not wrong to reopen Churches, it is not wrong to allow people to worship together.
     
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  4. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    By that logic the early church were a bunch of neighbor haters by getting together when that could mean that some would get fed to the lions.
     
  5. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    "The closers [what kind of term is that?] seem to want everything shut down with no discernible criteria for reopening and people can only be deprived of their average lives for so long." No exaggeration there! People seem to want everything shut down with no discernible criteria for reopening? Really?? That is not true. The key is to "reopen" safely.

    "...people can only be deprived of their average lives for so long" Did you mean to put in the word "average"? It's more accurate to say, "... people can only be deprived of their lives for so long". There have been almost 100,000 deaths in the US due to COVID-19. Without continued safety measures this number will increase considerably.

    It is wrong to infect others with COVID-19, possibly causing their deaths and their families extreme grief.

    People should worship together safely.

    Loving your neighbor does not mean causing them sickness or death.
     
  6. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Has someone suggested getting together in order to infect others? I have to say I hadn't heard of anyone advocating for that.
     
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  7. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    Safety involving what exactly? To the point where there is no risk? To the point where we have a vaccine that isn't guaranteed?

    People have been locked up long enough and the cost to the lives of people is outweighing the potential lives saved at this point. We are all likely going to suffer through this thing for years to come and it is not unloving to consider these other aspects of life. Especially Church.

    Most Churches are being responsible, most people are. It should be left to individuals to make their own risk assessments. Not you or the government.
     
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  8. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Of course nobody is saying that; it's a real distortion of what's being discussed. People get together and infect others with COVID-19; that would rarely happen if people took simple safety precautions such as wearing masks and staying at least 6 ft. from others.
     
  9. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    If some people don't have enough sense to protect themselves and, by their actions, infect and (possibly) kill others it's the role of government to protect the population at large by instituting safety measures.

    Have you forgotten the commandment not to kill others?
     
  10. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    We aren't killing others when we take calculated risks. Wu-flu is only deadly to particular areas of the population such as obese people and old people.

    If we were to apply this logic to anything else we would have to ban driving, ban alcohol, ban ciggerettes and anything else our society permits that involves a certain risk.

    I don't want to force anyone who is afraid of Wu-flu, but I don't want to shut people up in their homes for two years until a vaccine that might not materialize is ready. That's just inviting a depression and even more suffering (I suppose you prefer depression suicides to wu-flu deaths).
     
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  11. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So ... I guess if you're not fat or old ... it's not a problem ...
     
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  12. Hammster

    Hammster I am the wretch in the song. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then you shouldn’t do that.
     
  13. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    [In response to the post #: 75019734 by Ignatius the Kiwi]

    There is no such thing as "Wu-flu". I don't know where that term came from, certainly from nobody with even a modicum of medical knowledge. The COVID-19 is a unique virus, discovered in 2019. There is no confirmed knowledge of its origin. Any idea that it originated in Wuhan, China is just speculation; it's an unconfirmed rumor put out by a biased President and echoed by his minions.

    Your comment that the virus is only deadly to particular areas of the population such as obese people and old people, is totally wrong. I don't know the source of that lie but it certainly came from somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about.

    Your statement that "If we were to apply this logic to anything else we would have to ban driving, ban alcohol, ban ciggerettes [misspelled] and anything else our society permits that involves a certain risk." is ludicrous, a.k.a. reductio ad absurdum. In case your not aware there are enforceable laws such as speed limits, DWI laws, restricted cigarette sales, and other measures designed to protect people from harming/killing others. If highway deaths from exceeding speed limits and/or being impaired while operating a motor vehicle are acceptable to you, I really wonder why. In any society there are always measures to keep people as safe as possible.

    I will not discuss this issue with you any further.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  14. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Has anyone suggested we should purposely infect others with Covid-19. If not, then why make a point of saying that it would be wrong to infect others with Covid-19?
     
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  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The title and argument in the article assumes a lot.

    Trump is not pushing any church to reopen. He is taking the stand that under the 1st Amendment, no one, no government official of any rank can order a church closed. That would violate the free exercise clause.

    Secondly, it seems there is an attitude that churches will not do this “smart” and safe by implementing the proper social distancing and protection of their more vulnerable congregants.

    Churches can open safely and be good neighbors. I think that scares seculars and some government officials because they can’t control it. The government can’t control all the BBQs going on this weekend as well. That scares some when they don’t have absolute control.

    I attend a church of 50 or so adult members with a lot of children. We will have services starting next Sunday. The pastoral team has done a good job preparing for this. Instead of our one service we will have three. Seating will be spread out according to the CDC guidelines. Sanitation before and after each service. We will continue on line services for those who are at high risk.

    As good neighbors we have followed the lead of the state of Texas at every turn.

    Meeting in person to worship and fellowship with other believers is essential to our Christian faith. We are one body in Christ Jesus. Many of the saints before us lost their lives, were tortured and imprisoned because they met together to worship.
     
  16. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    By not taking simple, effective precautions, people are (unintentionally or not) infecting others with the most dangerous virus in the last hundred years.

    Do you really think it's okay to infect others with COVID-19? Really? Even if it's unintentional it should never be done -- under any circumstances.

    BTW, radical, fringe groups have suggested using COVID-19 to eliminate certain groups that they don't like. So yes, people would try to intentionally infect others if they had the chance.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Have you been to the larger grocery stores and places like Walmart?
     
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  18. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, meaning that you can't be punished under the law for what you believe. Any other interpretation is wrong.

    The First Amendment does not mean that the Federal Government abrogates its right to protect the citizenry. Would you approve any "church" that promotes harming and/or killing people? For example, do you approve of the Christian Identity movement?

    "Christian Identity is a unique antisemitic and racist theology that rose to a position of commanding influence on the racist right in the 1980s. “Christian” in name only, it asserts that white people, not Jews, are the true Israelites favored by God in the Bible. The movement’s relationship with evangelicals and fundamentalists has generally been hostile due to the latter’s belief that the return of Jews to Israel is essential to the fulfillment of end-time prophecy." Is that what you think the First Amendment protects?
     
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    No I have not. I am 76 and "medically fragile". Why should I risk my life going to places with many strangers who may put my life at risk?
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The clause actually says “free exercise.” That’s more than internally held beliefs.
     
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