Every Man For Himself Bible Versionism

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Is the Holy Spirit an "it" or a person?

John 1:32 (KJV)
32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


John 1:32 (NASB)
32John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
This is really a weak argument against the KJV.

The fact is, nearly every doctor who has ever delivered a child will say, "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!"

The word "it" in John 1:32 does not take away from the fact that the Holy Spirit is a He. Not in the least.

Consider your NASB.... Even that Bible identifies the Holy Spirit as 'it"

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. (Joh 6:63 NASB)

Why do you suppose Jesus used the word "It" there and not "He"?

Because, while it is true that the Holy Spirit is identified as He throughout the Bible, it is also identified as a thing. He is often referred to as 'the Spirit".

I am sure my scholarly friend can expound more on John 1:32 and the usage of 'it' when he posts again.
 
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brandplucked

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Is the Holy Spirit an "it" or a person?

John 1:32 (KJV)
32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


John 1:32 (NASB)
32John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.


Oh, come on Jig. This one is really old and has no legs to stand on at all. Have you been reading James White or Doug Kutilek again?;)

You bible agnostic fellas defend no Bible as being God's infallible words, but spend your time trying (in vain, I might add) to find just one provable error in the King James Bible so you can feel better about having settled for an imperfect and flawed bible yourself.

I suggested earlier that Bible critics first take a look at my homepage to see if your laundry list of alleged errors in the KJB have already been addressed, but it looks like you missed this one. I'll post it in the next response, OK?

All of grace,

Will K
 
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brandplucked

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Is the Holy Spirit an "it" or a person?

John 1:32 (KJV)
32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


John 1:32 (NASB)
32John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.

The Spirit ITSELF



“The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.”

Is referring to the third person of the of the blessed Trinity, as “itself” a major error in the King James Bible, which borders on blasphemy?

Doug Kutilek is a well known critic of the KJB. He has both printed, and posted an article on the internet, which harshly criticizes this “supposed” error in the King James Bible.

Mr. Kutilek states: “Any honest evaluation of the King James Version leads to the conclusion that it has numerous defects as a translation, some major, most minor. But of these defects, among the most serious, quite probably the worst of the lot, is its occasional use of the English pronoun “it” to refer to the Holy Spirit.”

He continues, “I will plainly state my opinion on the matter: I think that here the KJV comes dangerously close to blasphemy, if it does not in fact actually wander into it.” He closes his article with these words. “Those who imagine that the KJV. . . is faultless and error-free are compelled to address the matter.”

The purpose of this article is to “address the matter”. I believe Mr. Kutilek’s objections to the use of “it” or “itself” in referring to the Holy Ghost are both hypocritical and ignorant. Hypocritical because there are many versions, including the modern ones, that use “itself” in either the very same verses or in the very same manner; and ignorant because he doesn't know the English language very well.

First, see how the Random House Webster’s College Dictionary of 1999 defines the use of the words “it” and “itself”. The second definition given for “itself” is: “used to represent a PERSON or animal understood, previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context - Who is it? It is John. . . Did you see the baby? Yes, isn’t it cute. . . the cat likes to sun itself in the window.”

The Websters 1967 Collegiate Dictionary defines “it”, as “a PERSON or animal whose gender is unknown OR DISREGARDED.” The Father and the Son are clearly masculine, but the Spirit is sometimes referred to as masculine and sometimes as neuter, not because He is neuter, but rather because the gender is disregarded or not taken into account in that particular context.

The four verses in the KJB that Mr. Kutilek criticizes are: John 1:32, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:26, and I Peter 1:11. We will examine these verses with other translations and then look at some examples in the new versions.

The first verse is John 1:32. “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending like a dove, and IT abode upon him.” Other Bible versions that agree with the KJB in their use of “it” are Tyndales , the Geneva Bible of 1599 and 1602, Bishops Bible 1568, Daniel Mace's N.T. 1729, Wesley's translation 1755, Darby, Revised Version of 1881, American Standard Version of 1901, the Douay of 1950, Henry Alford’s translation, Young’s 'literal', the 21st Century KJV of 1994, William’s New Testament 1937, Lamsa's translation of the Syriac 1933, Daniel Webster’s of 1833, the 20th Century New Testament, Weymouth’s translation, Goodspeed’s American translation 1943, the 1998 Third Millenium Bible, the Revised Standard Version of 1952, the New American Bible 1970, the NRSV of 1989, and the 2001 English Standard Version.

The second verse is Romans 8:16. “The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” Versions that agree with the KJB are the Bishop’s Bible 1568, Whiston's Primitive N.T. 1745, Webster's translation 1833, Alford's New Testament for English Readers 1868, Darby 1870, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible of 1902, The New Testament from the Sinaitic Manuscript 1918, Goodspeed 1943, The New American Bible 1991, the KJV 21st Century Version 1994, the Interlinear Greek N.T. by Larry Pierce 1997, the Lawrie Translation 1998, the Third Millenium bible of 1998, the NRSV of 1989, A Conservative Version 2001, the Urim-Thummin Version 2001, The Evidence Bible Ray Comfort 2002, the 21st Century Version 2002, The Faithful New Testament 2005, The Accurate New Testament 2008, The Apostolic Polyglot Bible, the Concordant Version 2006. Many of these Bible translations can be seen here: Look Higher ! 200 English Bibles Online

The third verse is Romans 8:26. “But the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” Again the 21st Century KJV 1994, Alford’s translation 1868, the Bishop’s Bible 1568, Daniel Mace's N.T 1729, Wesley's 1755 translation, Coverdale 1535, Darby, Webster’s 1833, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible 1902, Goodspeed 1943, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, A Conservative Version 2001,The Urim-Thummin Version 2001,, and the Geneva Bible of 1599 and 1602 agree with the KJB.

The fourth verse is 1 Peter 1:11. “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when IT testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” Versions that agree with the use of “it” here are Alfords New Testament for English Readers 1868, Whiston's Primitive N.T. 1745, Noyes Translation 1869, the Revised Version of 1885, the American Standard Version of 1901, Webster’s translation 1833, the Berkeley Version 1969, Basic Bible in English 1960, the New American Bible 1991, Douay-Rheims, the 1989 Revised English Version (Bruce Metzger), the NRSV of 1989, Modern Literal Version of the New Testament, 1999 by G. Allen Walker, the Context Group Version 2007, the Updated Bible Version 2003, the Evidence Bible (Ray Comfort) 2003, the Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2008 and the Revised English Version of 2010.

So we see that many Bible versions which both predate and follow after the King James Holy Bible have used “it” and “itself” to refer to the Spirit of God. This is perfectly acceptable English, and a very accurate translation. Those who criticize the King James Bible for doing this only show their own ignorance of the English language. They also demonstrate their own blind pride that places their own minds and defective understanding above that of numerous other bible translators throughout the centuries who had far more understanding and translational skills than they will ever possess.

The NASB, ESV and NIV have two interesting, parallel verses in the New Testament. Both Matthew 12:45 and Luke 11:26 speak of a “spirit that takes along with IT seven other spirits more wicked than ITSELF”.

Here is a case of a spiritual entity that can see, hear, speak, and has a personality, yet the gender is disregarded in the NASB, ESV and NIV, and is referred to as “itself”. This spirit was not an inanimate object, but rather a spiritual being with a distinct personality.

In Luke 8:29, the same thing occurs in the KJB, NKJV, NIV, ESV and NASB. “For he had commanded the unclean SPIRIT to come out of the man. For oftentimes IT had caught him.” Here again is a spirit that talks, reasons, hears, and knows that Jesus is the Son of God and that torment awaits him. This is clearly a personality and yet all the above mentioned versions refer to him as an “it”. The gender is disregarded, and this is perfectly acceptable English.

Another instance of the Lord Jesus Christ using the little word “IT” to refer to himself is found in the NASB, NIV, ESV and NKJV in Luke 24:39 where He says: “Behold my hands and my feet, that IT is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

Again in Revelation 12:4, a multitude of Bible versions, including the NKJV, NIV, and the brand new English Standard Version of 2001, all refer to the child Jesus as IT. “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as IT was born.”

All of the modern versions use “itself” when referring to both animals and groups of people. The NKJV has the donkey itself in Hosea 8:9, the goat itself in Lev. 16:22; Israel itself in Judges 7:2. Numbers 23:9 speaks of “a people dwelling alone, not reckoning itself among the nations”, and Zechariah 12:12, “the family of the house of David by itself.”

All Bible versions at times speak of Jesus Christ as being a thing or something neuter. In Matthew 1:20, the angel of the Lord says to Joseph: “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for THAT WHICH is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” So read the ESV, RV, ASV, NKJV, RSV. The NIV and Holman have "WHAT is conceived", which is still neuter. However the NASB, NRSV say "THE CHILD WHO has been conceived", which is not in any Greek text, and then the NASB footnotes that it literally is "that which".

Notice the angel does not say “he”, but “that which”: it is neuter both in Greek and in English. In Luke 1:35, the angel says to Mary, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” That holy thing is neuter, yet we all know that Jesus Christ is a person, in fact, God manifest in the flesh. THAT HOLY THING is the reading found in all Greek texts as well as Wycliffe, Tyndale, Bishops' bible, the Geneva Bible, the RV 1885 and ASV of 1901. Here the NASB and ESV now say "THE CHILD to be born", which is not in any Greek text, but once again the NASB footnote informs us that it literally is "that holy thing". Many modern versions are getting worse, not better.

The book of 1 John opens with a reference to Jesus Christ, yet it refers to Him as a thing. “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.” Yet Christ is not a thing, but a person. In I John 5:4 we are told: “WHATSOEVER is born of God overcometh the world.” This is a neuter. Are we to assume that everyone who is born of God is a thing? WHATSOEVER is the reading of the Revised Version 1885 and the ASV 1901, while the NKJV, NASB, RSV, NRSV have WHATEVER IS BORN of God. This is OK since it is still a neuter, but the NIV, ESV now say 'EVERYONE born of God" which, once again, is not found in any Greek text.

Mr. Kutilek’s objections to these four verses in the King James Bible are totally unfounded. I have found that without exception, every person who takes it upon himself to criticize something found within the pages of the King James Bible is himself a Bible Agnostic. Not one of them can or ever will tell you where you can find the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God in Book form in any language on the face of this earth. Why? Because they simply do not believe that such a thing exists nor ever did exist.

They profess to believe selected portions of their mutliple choice bible versions, but doubt, question, criticize and would change numerous others found in ALL versions out there. They are Bible Agnostics. God’s ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He has revealed Himself to us in His inspired words, and I along with thousands of other Christians believe He has faithfully kept them for us today in the English language of the King James Bible.

All of grace, believing The Book, Will Kinney

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kiwimac

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There is NO scriptural support for KJV-Onlyism, it is a man-made doctrine first espoused by a member of the SDA church. You are adding to the things a person must do to be a Christian and you are wrong to do so.
 
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brandplucked

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There is NO scriptural support for KJV-Onlyism, it is a man-made doctrine first espoused by a member of the SDA church. You are adding to the things a person must do to be a Christian and you are wrong to do so.


kiwi, you are wrong on several counts here. The Scriptural support is that God is a God of truth who cannot lie. There either exists such a thing as an inspired and 100% true "book of the LORD" or God lied and you are right and there is no such thing as an inspired Book that is the sure words of God.

Where in any bible is what you fellas believe taught? "Only the originals" or "there is no such thing as an infallible Bible or translation" or "out there somewhere among thousands of contradictory and conflicting manuscripts"?? Where is any of that stuff you guys teach found in any Bible?

Secondly, the belief that the KJB is the infallible words of God was not started by some Seventh day Adventist. The SDA church is not KJB only. The formal church confessions about the infallibility of the Bible ALL came out AFTER the 1611 King James Bible came on the scene.

ConfessKJB - Another King James Bible Believer

Part of what you will find in this article is the following:

The General Baptists of England published the "Orthodox Creed" In 1678. It says, "And by the holy Scriptures we understand the canonical books of the Old and New Testament, AS THEY ARE NOW TRANSLATED INTO OUR ENGLISH MOTHER TONGUE, of which there hath NEVER been any doubt of their verity, and authority, in the protestant churches of Christ to this day." They then list the books of the Old and New Testament and then say, "All which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the Rule of faith and life." What Bible do you suppose these people were using in 1678? It was English and there can be little doubt that what they are talking about the Authorized Version of 1611.

And thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, we do NOT believe that a person must believe the King James Bible or any other Bible is the only inspired and infallible Bible in order to be a Christian or be saved. You just made that up to poison the waters and spread falsehood.

I don't even believe a Christian has to believe in the infallibility of Scripture in order to be saved. You don't. Most of the Christians on this board do not believe that any Bible is the infallible words of God, yet I have never said that if a person is not KJB only then they cannot be saved or a Christian at all. The gospel of salvation is still found in any version out there no matter how incomplete or inferior or corrupted it may be in numerous other ways.

Now, a little suggestion. Why don't you tell us in just a few words what you personally believe about "the Bible" and then show us anywhere in Scripture where what you believe is taught in your various versions.

I'm betting you won't do this, simply because what you believe about the Bible is not found anywhere in Scripture.

Will Kinney
 
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