Every generation claims the second coming in its time.

[kotel]

Now this is just scary! If accepted and becomes the real truth, then the Great Tribulation will begin in as few as 1 month!!! I for one am NOT ready for that.

You scare me = ( but only because you make some great points, thank you.

You have a few more years beyond 2010 to prepare yourself for the great tribulation. Apparently you believe the church will enter the time of Jacob’s trouble

I don’t see any 7 year great tribulation in Scripture. Daniel tells us of a future 7 year period that begins a with a covenant but he doesn’t elaborate on what transpires in the first half before the sacrifices and offering are ended mid way into the covenant by the “prince” or “ruler who will come.” The second half of the covenant is when all the action starts with the abomination of the Antichrist in the temple. During the second half there will be wars and desolations until the end (9:26). If my 70 year hypothesis is correct, November/December of 2017 would be his return. The great tribulation would begin about 3.5 years earlier during the summer months of 2014.

Daniel tells us how long the future 70th week is and the number of days in each half (12:11). The first half is 1,260 days to when the daily sacrifice is abolished and the Antichrist defiles the temple. From this point on another 1,290 are required to reach the end of the great tribulation. Another 45 days are required to reach the Millennium at the end of the 1,335 days. The days of Daniel are based on the Hebrew calendar of 360 days a month and need to be converted to the Gregorian calendar. The conversion of 1,290 Hebrew days to our calendar follows:

1,290 days divided by 365.4 = 3.53 years
.53 x 365.4 = 193.66 days
193.66 divided by 30.45 days a month = 6.36 months
.36 x 30.45 days = 11 days
There might be 3 years, 6 months and 11 days from the abomination to the end of 1,290 days.

If November 29, 2017 is his return: backtracking 3 years from this date is November 2014; minus 6 months is the end of May, 2014; minus 11 days is the third week of May, 2014 when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2:3-4). Several weeks after he is revealed the great tribulation begins.

According to the above scenario, there is about 4 years and 6 months left until the day of the Lord begins with the great tribulation.

 

[nowfaith86]

Do you mistake my purpose? Am I here to educate or to commune with sisters and brothers in the Spirit for inspiration?

If your purpose is to commune with brothers an sister in the Spirit for inspiration then why have you thus far not addressed what I have written. You have not addressed the biblical objections to this theory other than saying they are age-old. If you truly want to commune with sisters and brothers, then why have you neglected to do so. You have communed but failed to commune in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit inspired scripture, and you have neglected the scriptural objections. If you want to commune and search out scripture with brothers and sisters then that means addressing those who raise biblical objections as well and proving your belief to be biblical. You have thus far failed to do this.

I am not a prophet and should not be battled as a false prophet.

I do not believe you are a false prophet nor have I ever called you one. I believe you are a great Christian with a belief that is unbiblical. I am not battling you. I am discussing the Bible. Why post a post on a forum if you do not want to discuss it. I am not interested in opinions and claims unless the Bible backs them, thus far you have not proved that the Bible backs your claim.....so let's discuss it....iron sharpens iron....why are you avoiding the discussion?

Can we believe that where there is blindness among the unbeliever, that it is because they have not the Holy Spirit? And what is the purpose of the Spirit, if not to grant the believer the advantage of Holy Inspiration.

Holy Inspiration from the Holy Spirit will always line up with the scripture. If the scripture does not support the supposed Holy Inspiration then it is not from the Holy Spirit. I believe there is symbols and prophetic meanings in scripture, but we must take what the Bible says clearly first and then apply the prophetic meanings on that basis. If the Holy Inspiration does not mesh with what the scripture clearly says then it is false. Otherwise anyone could claim anything.....there has to be a standard and the standard is scripture, the clear meaning of scripture.

I come to you with that Inspiration found through my faith in hopes that it might be confirmed by the Inspiration found through yours and through the faith of all my sisters and brothers here who might be so lead.

You should not bring your Inspiration found through faith to be confirmed by others extra-biblical Inspiration. You should bring your Inspiration to be confirmed by scripture. If scripture contradicts your inspiration then that inspiration should be rejected as not from God. Unless you believe God contradicts Himself and the Bible is not His word which if you do we have bigger issues than the timing of the second coming.

The dots that I site are all thoroughly quoted scripturally. The connecting of these dots is the subject for a faith filled life.

I offerred many questions from scripture that show your dots are not biblical. But even of they were anyone can claim ways the dots connect, someone wrote a book called 88 reasons Christ is coming back in 1988. He used biblical passages and claimed that through his faith filled life came the connecting of the dots to fit 1988 as the year Jesus will return. 1988 came and went and he was wrong.

Your inspiration is not fact or something to build a belief on if it does not line up with scripture, unless you can answer the questions laid out that prove it is not biblical, then your inspiration will be like 1988. And you will discredit yourself from being taken seriously after that time has come and gone, only the word of God will last forever. We must use that as our standard.

Will nowfaith86 help?

I have tried to help, by showing you that the dots do not connect biblically, but you choose to cling to somethign that the Bible denies....will rdcast side with scripture or will rdcast become the next person to fall to vanity. Thinking that your belief is right because you have had some special inspiration even though the Bible rejects it is the ultimate vanity....you are saying God's word is wrong and you are right.....

Unless of course you can address the Bible passages that deny your belief.

God Bless

 

[rdcast]

nowfaith86,
not only is this a DISCUSSION forum, but an eschatology forum at that. You're not adding to the discussion. You've become a detractor with nothing to add beyond your objections. If there's something going on in your life you need to talk about I'd be happy to give you my phone number or e-mail to try and help. In any event, you might consider whether or not you're in the proper forum for what you need. If you have an interest in eschatology, I'm sure we all would like to hear about your ideas and knowledge concerning it.

 

[nowfaith86]

nowfaith86,
not only is this a DISCUSSION forum, but an eschatology forum at that.

Exactly, so let's discuss.

You're not adding to the discussion. You've become a detractor with nothing to add beyond your objections.

Why am I not adding to the discussion.....because I am disagreeing with you and saying the beliefs and theory you have posted is not biblical.
Objections are a part of a discussion. A true discussion is not every person agreeing with you. I want to discuss this topic.....You offered a belief on a discussion forum about eschatology.....I discussed this belief with you by raising my concerns about why I feel it is not biblical......You have thusfar refused to discuss these questions with me......even though you posted this on a discussion forum you are not discussing it with me.

So I ask you again, why are you not discussing it. To discuss something means you offer your view (which you did) and if someone has a differnt view you hear them out and then address the issues (which you have not done).....if your theory is biblical then you should have no problem discussing the objections I posted. So why are you avoiding this discussion. Do you only want to discuss this with people who agree with you? Are you not able or willing to discuss with someone who has a different belief? If not, then why not? If you are, then why haven't you.

I just want to discuss what the Bibles says on the belief you posted.

If there's something going on in your life you need to talk about I'd b happy to give you my phone number or e-mail to try and help.

I sincerely thank you for the offer, but my life is great, but I do find it kind of strange that you think something must be going on in my life because I disagree with you and want to discuss what the Bible says on the matter.

In any event, you might consider whether or not you're in the proper forum for what you need.

This is a discussion forum made to discuss......I am trying to discuss with you and you have thus far refused to discuss the topic you laid out with me.....you might need to consider whether or not you are in the proper forum.

If you have an interest in eschatology, I'm sure we all would like to hear about your ideas and knowledge concerning it.

Eschatology is a passion of mine. I have devoted years to studying it. You say you would like to hear my ideas and knowledge concerning it, but thus far you have not responded to my ideas and knowledge.

I was trying to discuss a matter of eschatology with you that you laid out and then you ignore my discussion and call me a detractor.......having objections is not a bad thing, if you can show your points to be biblical, then why would it matter if someone has objections because you can answer them.....if you can't then you should be questioning why you believe it in the first place......

So I ask you....do you want to discuss the topic you posted on a discussion forum or do you only want people who agree with you to weigh in.

God Bless

 

[Doveaman]

Consider that 500 years earlier, Jesus Christ would have been crucified during the beginning of the Persian Empire and during Abiud's life being the 16th direct descendant of Solomon with 9 more generations to Joseph the carpenter.

This would obviously be a problem if you only moved the resurrection event back 500 years into history, but if you moved all historical events back 500 years along with us it wouldn’t be a problem.

Also 3,500 years after the Garden expulsion Daniel had just been cast into the lions den and the book of Malachi hadn't been written until a hundred years later. It doesn't seem prudent that the offering of salvation occurred anywhere near that period.

And how exactly do we work out how much time elapsed between the garden expulsion and the lions den? Can you give me a summery?

And you do realize we can only speculate on the amount of time that elapsed between the garden sin and the garden expulsion? How long did Adam remain in the garden after he sinned? One day? One year? 100 years?

Adam walked with God without time bearing on him and all that came before him. The clock of God's Will toward man starts ticking once Adam eats of the forbidden tree

A bit speculative, don’t you think?

Consider this:

The LORD God formed the man...and the man became a living being...When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son... (Gen 2:7, 5:3).

Obviously time was relevant from the moment Adam was created and given life. The first 130 years of his life (When Adam had lived 130 years) began the moment he was created. So the first 1000 years in which Adam lived started even before he was expelled from the garden. The 930 years of Adam’s life began before he was expelled. So how old was Adam before was expelled? One day? One year? 100 years?

Since you do not know how much time elapsed between Adam’s creation and Adam’s sin, or how much time elapse between Adam’s sin and Adam’s expulsion, then your 2027AD hypothesis is nothing more than speculative. You could be off by about 100 years of Adam’s life in the garden.

 

[contrabar]

You have a few more years beyond 2010 to prepare yourself for the great tribulation. Apparently you believe the church will enter the time of Jacob’s trouble

I don’t see any 7 year great tribulation in Scripture. Daniel tells us of a future 7 year period that begins a with a covenant but he doesn’t elaborate on what transpires in the first half before the sacrifices and offering are ended mid way into the covenant by the “prince” or “ruler who will come.” The second half of the covenant is when all the action starts with the abomination of the Antichrist in the temple. During the second half there will be wars and desolations until the end (9:26). If my 70 year hypothesis is correct, November/December of 2017 would be his return. The great tribulation would begin about 3.5 years earlier during the summer months of 2014.

Daniel tells us how long the future 70th week is and the number of days in each half (12:11). The first half is 1,260 days to when the daily sacrifice is abolished and the Antichrist defiles the temple. From this point on another 1,290 are required to reach the end of the great tribulation. Another 45 days are required to reach the Millennium at the end of the 1,335 days. The days of Daniel are based on the Hebrew calendar of 360 days a month and need to be converted to the Gregorian calendar. The conversion of 1,290 Hebrew days to our calendar follows:

1,290 days divided by 365.4 = 3.53 years
.53 x 365.4 = 193.66 days
193.66 divided by 30.45 days a month = 6.36 months
.36 x 30.45 days = 11 days
There might be 3 years, 6 months and 11 days from the abomination to the end of 1,290 days.

If November 29, 2017 is his return: backtracking 3 years from this date is November 2014; minus 6 months is the end of May, 2014; minus 11 days is the third week of May, 2014 when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2:3-4). Several weeks after he is revealed the great tribulation begins.

According to the above scenario, there is about 4 years and 6 months left until the day of the Lord begins with the great tribulation.

if it's that close, i'm looking forward to it with a peace in my heart that i can only say it's not my own peace

 

[rdcast]

Eschatology is a passion of mine. I have devoted years to studying it. You say you would like to hear my ideas and knowledge concerning it, but thus far you have not responded to my ideas and knowledge.

nowfaith86,
My name is Robert Cast. Jesus Christ gave me His gift of the Holy Spirit in 1976, 33 years ago in my early 20's. My devotion to Christ hasn't been the strongest over the years, but I could no more deny Him as I could the sun as it showers me with its warming light. The Holy Spirit has never left me and I have learned to turn toward it from within and marvel over its work...I'm not a prophet, nor am I a theologian, far from either.

nowfaith86, if you consider all that you have written in this thread you might realize that you have written more words than any other individual, all in the pursuit of discovering the scriptural legs I'm standing on. I don't want another 1,000 word essay on the fact that I haven't satisfied your standard of proof. I would much prefer you accept my shortcomings and present your own thoughts and supporting scripture. While you have labored over my ineptness to provide suitable scriptural support for my arguments, I have been learning from everyone else's views.

Something just occurred to me.
I used to never talk about what I considered divine inspiration from a sin of selfishness. Because I was so proud of my views I would leak them out to satisfied my vanity. Much to my surprise, I found that no one wanted to hear it, not to mention wanting to accept it. Out of frustration I began forcing people to listen to me just to discover my opinions had little or no value to anyone. So guess what? I got over myself and started to seek the opinions of others. I'm here now to not only listen to, but appreciate anyone willing to present their thoughts on the subjects I'm interested in. Are you too proud of your opinions, study, hard work, divine inspiration? I have been. It's a lonely attitude. And what of scripture do we own?

I encourage you to share what you know or believe, but be prepared not to be accepted. Try your best to accept others as the sinners we are and work around our faults. Jesus forgives us, you should too.

I'm formally proclaiming to you now that I have little else to say on my own accord concerning the topic of this thread and have no other supporting scripture than I have already provided, though admittedly insufficient.

I now challenge you, nowfaith86, to understand that I have accepted your knowledge that what I have presented does not merit serious consideration based on the fact that it presents insufficient scriptural reference. I further challenge you to represent your specialized knowledge based on your study of Eschatology. Would you please be so gracious?

 

[rdcast]

The power of fellowship is miraculous. I am close to a point of being overwhelmed by all of the converging inspired thought. It's forcing me to print out all that is being presented to compile, compare and study. The experience has caused me to pause to absorb what has been given. I fear drowning in the deeper waters you have pulled me into. To properly respond to what is being said here, will take further study and prayer. I have explained that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed?

 

[Doveaman]

The power of fellowship is miraculous. I am close to a point of being overwhelmed by all of the converging inspired thought. It's forcing me to print out all that is being presented to compile, compare and study. The experience has caused me to pause to absorb what has been given. I fear drowning in the deeper waters you have pulled me into. To properly respond to what is being said here, will take further study and prayer. I have explained that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed?

I know how you feel, I think.

 

[rdcast]

This would obviously be a problem if you only moved the resurrection event back 500 years into history, but if you moved all historical events back 500 years along with us it wouldn’t be a problem.

Doveaman,
It's not like world history is without a root. As Genesis records, Adam moves out of the Garden and all generations from him are dutifully annotated and time stamped. We simply cannot pile up preceding events to accommodate Jesus being crucified 500BC.

And how exactly do we work out how much time elapsed between the garden expulsion and the lions den? Can you give me a summery?

LOL, you ask for a lot

From the Garden to the death of Moses is 2553yrs:
Adam(age130) begot
Seth(age105) begot
Enos(age90 ) begot
Cainan(age70 ) begot
Mahalaleel(age65 ) begot
Jared(age162) begot
Enoch(age65 ) begot
Methuselah(age187) begot
Lamech(age182) begot
Noah(age502) begot
Shem(age100) begot
Arphaxad(age35 ) begot
Salah(age30 ) begot
Heber(age34 ) begot
Peleg(age30 ) begot
Reu(age32 ) begot
Serug(age30 ) begot
Nahor(age29 ) begot
Terah(age130) begot
Abraham(age100) begot
Isaac(age60) begot
Jacob(age71) begot
Levi(age30) begot
Kohath(age89) begot
Amram(age75) begot
Moseslived(120yrs)

At this point in time there is still 1,445yrs till the Birth of Christ. The Old Testament continues recording history for another 1,050yrs to the end of Malachi, 3,603yrs after the Garden expulsion, with 391yrs left till the Birth of Christ. That's nearly 400yrs of history not supported by biblical writing. The Roman government is less than well documented throughout this period. So, I'm not comfortable with trying to speculate on a time line to place either Christ's Birth or Resurrection.

I realize this lends some plausibility to what you're saying. It's just not likely.
​

And you do realize we can only speculate on the amount of time that elapsed between the garden sin and the garden expulsion? How long did Adam remain in the garden after he sinned? One day? One year? 100 years?

I resolve this with the fact that Adam had access to the Tree of Life that provided him with immortality till he sinned. At that point he had no place in the Garden, forcing him into his mortality. The day that he was commanded to die was the first day denoting time.

"Adam walked with God without time bearing on him and all that came before him. The clock of God's Will toward man starts ticking once Adam eats of the forbidden tree"
A bit speculative, don’t you think?

Not at all speculative. Adam walked without clothes in the view of God without shame. He had full access to the Tree of Life that kept him from aging. No mystery here.

Consider this:
The LORD God formed the man...and the man became a living being...When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son... (Gen 2:7, 5:3).

Obviously time was relevant from the moment Adam was created and given life. The first 130 years of his life (When Adam had lived 130 years) began the moment he was created. So the first 1000 years in which Adam lived started even before he was expelled from the garden. The 930 years of Adam’s life began before he was expelled. So how old was Adam before was expelled? One day? One year? 100 years?

Since you do not know how much time elapsed between Adam’s creation and Adam’s sin, or how much time elapse between Adam’s sin and Adam’s expulsion, then your 2027AD hypothesis is nothing more than speculative. You could be off by about 100 years of Adam’s life in the garden.

The time, for time's sake, during Adam's life in the Garden, has no relevance. Whatever it was, it was sufficient to achieve God's will in preparation for the beginning of man's mortality that was to begin upon the first sin.

There's a reason that there's no escaping the need for faith. It is that one miracle that we create out of the dust, for the sake of Jesus Christ. Going through this exercise has made me see the rationale of nowfaith86's thinking as well. I often see more with my heart than Eschatology can permit.

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD

 

[angelmom01]

rdcast,

So you are saying that you equate the penalty for sin (death) with physical death?

How does Ecc 6:6 and Psa 90:4 factor into your 'math' concerning "a thousand years" and "the second coming" of Christ?

Also, if Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for Him (Heb 9:28) and Christ said: "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you" and "at that day you shall know that I am in the Father and ye in me and I in you" (John 14:18-20), knowing that "Christ in you" is the hope of glory (Col 1:27), are we to believe that Christ comes "the second time" physically and that this event is purely a physical event that is still yet future?

 

[nowfaith86]

rdcast,

So you are saying that you equate the penalty for sin (death) with physical death?

Physical death certainly did come about through sin, but of course spiritual death did as well. Adam and Eve did eat of the tree of life, giving them immortality, but they were cut off from this after the fall......In the very end When Christ returns we are given physical glorified, eternal bodies again that do not have a sin nature but are in the express image of God again (1 Cor. 15)....so when sin is removed we are again eternal physically and the tree of Life will be returned in the Millennial Kingdom as said in Rev. 2 and 22.....But we also know that spiritaul death which is seperation from God is also an aspect of this penalty.

How does Ecc 6:6 and Psa 90:4 factor into your 'math' concerning "a thousand years" and "the second coming" of Christ?

I disagree with His math and I do not believe the theory that we can know the year Christ is going to return by doing math.....we cannot know until the tribulation starts.......This is a great question and cannot wait to hear rdcast's response.

Also, if Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for Him (Heb 9:28)

You cannot have a double standard of interpretation......if you interpret the second have of the verse about His appearing as symbolic and not literal then you must also interpret the first half as symbolic....so let me post the whole verse......

Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Are you saying that Jesus was only symbolically offered to bear our sins and he did not literally come and die......if He did come literally the first time then we must conclude the this second appearing is literal as well.

The words "look for" mean passionately waiting for in the Geek....look it up.....why would Christians be waiting for Christ's coming if it refers to the coming of Christ into our hearts....He is already there, we do not have to wait for that....the only waiting we must do is if there is a literal coming of Jesus.........

and Christ said: "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you" and "at that day you shall know that I am in the Father and ye in me and I in you" (John 14:18-20),

You are taking this verse out of Context.......who is doing the coming here, the one who is comforting....according to verse 16 - 17 the one comforting is the Holy Spirit....and in verse 22 Jesus is asked what He is speaking of and Jesus answers in verses 23-26 by saying that the Holy Spirit is God and that the Holy Spirit is the same as Having Jesus and the Father there with them........This is not talking about the return of Jesus, but rather the coming of the Holy Spirit.....however this is not Jesus coming because at Jesus coming....He, the Son of Man (Jesus) will come in the clouds where every eye will see Him (Matt 24).......Jesus comes not the Holy Spirit.....every eye does not see the Holy Spirit, not even our eye.......The return of Christ is physical and literal.....

knowing that "Christ in you" is the hope of glory (Col 1:27)

Christ is in us as the Holy Spirit.....as said in John 14.....this says nothing of His second coming to earth.

are we to believe that Christ comes "the second time" physically and that this event is purely a physical event that is still yet future?

I have shown it is physical and literal, as far as future.......if it is literal and physical which the Bible says it is, then we know this has not happened yet because Jesus is not physically here, so we must know it is future.......

God Bless

 

[Doveaman]

Doveaman,
It's not like world history is without a root. As Genesis records, Adam moves out of the Garden and all generations from him are dutifully annotated and time stamped. We simply cannot pile up preceding events to accommodate Jesus being crucified 500BC.

We are not moving Christ resurrection 500 years back relative to us. We are moving all human events 500 years back relative to the garden.

Instead of Christ resurrection being 4,000 years from the garden it would be 3,500 years from the garden. So the date of Christ resurrection remains the same relative to us. But instead of us nearing the 6,000th year mark in human history we would now be nearing the 5,500th year mark.

That's nearly 400yrs of history not supported by biblical writing.

I realize this lends some plausibility to what you're saying.

It certainly does.

It would seem like there could be about 400 or even 500 years (Adam’s garden life being about 100 years) that is not adequately accounted for. So I guess this makes my theory plausible.

It's just not likely.

Throughout scripture we often see a 3 ½ time period (as in "a time, and times, and half a time") followed by a period of divine deliverance.

It was 3 ½ days into the Passover week before Christ died and was delivered from His suffering at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It was 3 ½ years into Christ new covenant ministry before He died to deliver us from sin at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It will be for a 3 ½ time period that the end time saints are persecuted (Great Tribulation), after which they will be delivered at the end of that 3 ½ period of time (Dan 7:25-26).

It will be for a 3 ½ time period that the “woman” (the church) will be in hiding in the wilderness from the wreath of Satan the serpent, after which she will be delivered at the end of that 3 ½ period of time (Rev 12:14-16).

It will also be for a 3 ½ time period that the “two witnesses” experience persecution and eventual death while proclaiming the gospel, and their bodies remained dead in the streets for another 3 ½ time period, after which they will be delivered at the end of those 3 ½ periods of time (Rev 11:3-12).

Even Christ’ age (33 ½ years) may somehow be significant.

It seems to me that the first 3 periods of time represents suffering and death, and the following 4th period represents deliverance. This might also explain why Christ was buried for 3 days and was delivered from the grave on the 4th.

I think it has something to do with God “punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (3 to 4 generations, or 3 to 4 periods of time), but showing mercy to thousands (in the 4th generation, or the 4th period of time)” (Ex 20:5-6).

Perhaps Adam’s descendants were punished for his garden sin to the third and forth generation (3 to 4 generations, or 3 to 4 periods of time), then God intervened to show mercy and deliverance through Christ death and resurrection in the midst of the 4th generation (or the 4th period of time).

In 2 Cor 6:2 we are told that "In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Perhaps the “accepted time” is that 4th period of time of Christ deliverance. Perhaps the “day of salvation” is that 4th God-day when “Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself...in the middle of the week...” (Dan 9:26-27).

 

[angelmom01]

God Bless

nowfaith86,

You do realize that when you respond within the quotes instead of outside of them that the person replying to you cannot quote your post and (much more easily) reply to your comments?

 

[angelmom01]

Physical death certainly did come about through sin, but of course spiritual death did as well.

Where do you get the idea that Adam and Eve were immortal before they transgressed the law?

Adam and Eve did eat of the tree of life, giving them immortality, but they were cut off from this after the fall......

There is nothing that indicates that Adam or Eve ever partook of the tree of life. In fact, God removed them from the garden and guarded the tree "lest" they partake of it and live forever; that seems to imply that they hadn't.

In the very end When Christ returns we are given physical glorified, eternal bodies again that do not have a sin nature but are in the express image of God again (1 Cor. 15)....so when sin is removed we are again eternal physically and the tree of Life will be returned in the Millennial Kingdom as said in Rev. 2 and 22.....But we also know that spiritaul death which is seperation from God is also an aspect of this penalty.

God did not create (past tense) man in His image; God is creatING man in His image and after His likeness. It is a process by which man is "conformed into the image of His Son". And Jesus Christ is the tree of life.

I disagree with His math and I do not believe the theory that we can know the year Christ is going to return by doing math.....we cannot know until the tribulation starts.......This is a great question and cannot wait to hear rdcast's response.

Well, then we can both patiently wait for his answer.

You cannot have a double standard of interpretation......if you interpret the second have of the verse about His appearing as symbolic and not literal then you must also interpret the first half as symbolic....so let me post the whole verse......

Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I'm not following your logic. The fact that Christ was crucified in the flesh has no bearing on the fact that he appears "the second time" unto them look for Him, "without sin" (not as a sin offering) "unto salvation" (Christ in you, the hope of glory).
Does Christ not "come" and make His abode IN US? Giving us LIFE (from the dead, spiritually speaking)?

Are you saying that Jesus was only symbolically offered to bear our sins and he did not literally come and die.....

No, that is not what I said at all.

if He did come literally the first time then we must conclude the this second appearing is literal as well.

Why? (And I am not implying that Christ does not return physically; just inquiring about his "second" coming.)

The words "look for" mean passionately waiting for in the Geek....look it up.....

Why would you think that I need to look it up?

why would Christians be waiting for Christ's coming if it refers to the coming of Christ into our hearts....

Why wouldn't we be told to look/watch for His coming when he said "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you" (referring to the coming of the Holy Spirit)? Do we not need to be "born again" in order to see the kingdom of God? Does Christ not come "as a thief in the night" (where do those who "sleep" sleep"? )

He is already there, we do not have to wait for that....the only waiting we must do is if there is a literal coming of Jesus.........

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe (but do not forget that "babes" are "yet carnal" :o). Paul waited for Christ to be formed in them. There is quite a bit of difference (spiritually speaking) between "a child" and "a son". And we are not SONS of God (and "created in His image") until Christ is formed in us.

You are taking this verse out of Context.......who is doing the coming here, the one who is comforting....according to verse 16 - 17 the one comforting is the Holy Spirit....and in verse 22 Jesus is asked what He is speaking of and Jesus answers in verses 23-26 by saying that the Holy Spirit is God and that the Holy Spirit is the same as Having Jesus and the Father there with them........This is not talking about the return of Jesus, but rather the coming of the Holy Spirit....

I have not taken it out of context. Of course, having the Holy Spirit means having Christ (and the Father); they are ONE. So you cannot say that the Holy Spirit comes and this means the same as having Jesus Christ and the Father there and then turn around and claim that it doesn't mean that Christ is come (the second time).

.however this is not Jesus coming because at Jesus coming....He, the Son of Man (Jesus) will come in the clouds where every eye will see Him (Matt 24).......

Why do you take that literally? Are we not "a cloud of witnesses", even the body of Jesus Christ, for all to see? (Seeing is not necessarily perceiving.)

Jesus comes not the Holy Spirit.....

How do you have one without the other, when they are ONE?

every eye does not see the Holy Spirit, not even our eye.......

Addressed above.

The return of Christ is physical and literal.....

Not when he comes "the second time".

Christ is in us as the Holy Spirit.....as said in John 14.....this says nothing of His second coming to earth.

It is you who ties his "second" coming to a physical event (choosing not to count the pouring out of the Holy Spirit; Christ in you). So you are interpreting the scriptures with that view (which I agree is nearly universal to all Christians) in mind. But that still ignores that fact that Christ comes "the second time" UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM (and it is BELIEVERS who are told to "watch for His appearing"... as he comes as a thief in the night - TO THOSE WHO SLEEP). To completely disregard the fact that Christ comes to live IN US, so that (because HE LIVES) we can LIVE (also) is to completely miss the whole point of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" and what it truly means to be "resurrected from the dead" (as a spiritual truth). It is to completely ignore the fact that we are told to look upon those things that are NOT SEEN (not those things that ARE SEEN) if we are to "rightly divide" the word of truth.

I have shown it is physical and literal, as far as future.......if it is literal and physical which the Bible says it is, then we know this has not happened yet because Jesus is not physically here, so we must know it is future.......

A physical return would, indeed, be yet future. That doesn't mean that a physical return is what is being addressed in Hebrews when it says that Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for him.

God Bless

Blessings!

 

[rdcast]

rdcast,

So you are saying that you equate the penalty for sin (death) with physical death?

How does Ecc 6:6 and Psa 90:4 factor into your 'math' concerning "a thousand years" and "the second coming" of Christ?

Also, if Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for Him (Heb 9:28) and Christ said: "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you" and "at that day you shall know that I am in the Father and ye in me and I in you" (John 14:18-20), knowing that "Christ in you" is the hope of glory (Col 1:27), are we to believe that Christ comes "the second time" physically and that this event is purely a physical event that is still yet future?

angelmom01,
I'm not at all sure of the mind of Ecc 6:6. But the mention of a thousand years twice over is interesting enough for me to study.

Now Psa 90:4 is absolutely on target!

[4]For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night.

This is further conformation of 2 Peter 3:8, yet even more as it's followed with "as a watch in the night" which sorta resembles "as a thief in the night" and "in what watch" and beyond this, what a wonderful call for personal responsibility while we have time, this is.

Heb 9:28 is instructing us that during the end times Jesus comes not to judge but to our rescue.

John 14:18-20 is plain and simple. This is the description of my dramatic conversion so many years ago.

Thank you and God Bless you !!!

 

[angelmom01]

angelmom01,
I'm not at all sure of the mind of Ecc 6:6. But the mention of a thousand years twice over is interesting enough for me to study.

Now Psa 90:4 is absolutely on target!

[4]For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night.

This is further conformation of 2 Peter 3:8, yet even more as it's followed with "as a watch in the night" which sorta resembles "as a thief in the night" and "in what watch" and beyond this, what a wonderful call for personal responsibility while we have time, this is.

Heb 9:28 is instructing us that during the end times Jesus comes not to judge but to our rescue.

John 14:18-20 is plain and simple. This is the description of my dramatic conversion so many years ago.

Thank you and God Bless you !!!

It is an absolutely amazing study!!

As the "thousand years" (twice) is connected to "two" DAYS, or rather ONE DAY that is "divided"... between THE NIGHT = YESTERDAY (when it is past) and THE DAY = TODAY (when you hear His voice and harden not your hearts... and enter into HIS REST = SABBATH).

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Blessings!

 

[rdcast]

It is an absolutely amazing study!!

As the "thousand years" (twice) is connected to "two" DAYS, or rather ONE DAY that is "divided"... between THE NIGHT = YESTERDAY (when it is past) and THE DAY = TODAY (when you hear His voice and harden not your hearts... and enter into HIS REST = SABBATH).

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Blessings!

Ecclesiastes 6 (English Standard Version)
[1] There is an evil that I have seen under the sun, and it lies heavy on mankind: [2]a man to whom God gives wealth, possessions, and honor, so that he lacks nothing of all that he desires, yet God does not give him power to enjoy them, but a stranger enjoys them. This is vanity; it is a grievous evil. [3]If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life’s good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. [4]For it comes in vanity and goes in darkness, and in darkness its name is covered. [5]Moreover, it has not seen the sun or known anything, yet it finds rest rather than he. [6]Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good—do not all go to the one place?

This is a mystery. Vanity is what would have killed me. I stood in the mirror, but could not see my face. It was a mask called vanity. I prayed, Lord, take it away so I can see who I am, yet there was another beneath it, and another still. As layers of an onion, the last mask was finally removed to reveal what I was. Only a skull of bare bone. Understanding all was vanity, I broke from the knowledge that tho I was nothing Jesus cared to save me. Unable to stop the tears, I praised the Lord Jesus and found myself surrounded by miracle. I asked for my watch that I had lost. Instantly, my head was turned to look behind me where I saw a golden glow hovering to the back of a small table. Walking toward the glow, I reached out to find the watch that was lost.

 

[rdcast]

We are not moving Christ resurrection 500 years back relative to us. We are moving all human events 500 years back relative to the garden.

Instead of Christ resurrection being 4,000 years from the garden it would be 3,500 years from the garden. So the date of Christ resurrection remains the same relative to us. But instead of us nearing the 6,000th year mark in human history we would now be nearing the 5,500th year mark.
It certainly does.

To think that as soon as the Old Testament writing was finished that Jesus Resurrected is quite beyond reason. The compression of 500yrs of history is troublesome and may not even be necessary. More on this toward the end. I still contend that God's will toward man calendar begins with the first Garden sin. Sin cannot exist in God's Garden, period!

It would seem like there could be about 400 or even 500 years (Adam’s garden life being about 100 years) that is not adequately accounted for. So I guess this makes my theory plausible.

Here we just have to agree to disagree. How on God's green earth do you derive at the notion that Adam's Garden life was just 100yrs? It's more like 100 X 1,000,000. It's simply unfathomable to contemplate. Adam undoubtedly had a very special physiology.

Throughout scripture we often see a 3 ½ time period (as in "a time, and times, and half a time") followed by a period of divine deliverance.

It was 3 ½ days into the Passover week before Christ died and was delivered from His suffering at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It was 3 ½ years into Christ new covenant ministry before He died to deliver us from sin at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It will be for a 3 ½ time period that the end time saints are persecuted (Great Tribulation), after which they will be delivered at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It will be for a 3 ½ time period that the “woman” (the church) will be in hiding in the wilderness from the wreath of Satan the serpent, after which she will be delivered at the end of that 3 ½ period of time.

It will also be for a 3 ½ time period that the “two witnesses” experience persecution and eventual death while proclaiming the gospel, and their bodies remained dead in the streets for another 3 ½ time period, after which they will be delivered at the end of those 3 ½ periods of time.

Even Christ’ age (33 ½ years) may somehow be significant.

Yes, I'm very aware of this pattern, as it all seems to foreshadow that which is found in the Book of Revelation.

It seems to me that the first 3 periods of time represents suffering and death, and the following 4th period represents deliverance. This might also explain why Christ was buried for 3 days and was delivered from the grave on the 4th.

I think it has something to do with God “punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (3 to 4 generations, or 3 to 4 periods of time), but showing mercy to thousands (in the 4th generation, or the 4th period of time)”.

Perhaps Adam’s descendants were punished for his garden sin to the third and forth generation ( 3 to 4 generations, or 3 to 4 periods of time), then God intervened to show mercy and deliverance through Christ death and resurrection in the midst of the 4th generation (or the 4th period of time).

In we are told that "In an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Perhaps the “accepted time” is that 4th period of time of Christ deliverance. Perhaps the “day of salvation” is that 4th God-day when “Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself...in the middle of the week...”.

Now this I'm most interested in. The idea of the 3 periods plus the 4th would tend to support the theory of the 3 God-days without grace and the 4th God-day bringing Resurrection-Salvation!

 

[rdcast]

I disagree with His math and I do not believe the theory that we can know the year Christ is going to return by doing math.....we cannot know until the tribulation starts

nowfaith86,
It has been a 2,000yr wait. Would you really expect God to catch His creation totally flatfooted? God is merciful. As His followers, we are provided with a means by which we might determine "in what watch" we should be vigilant, else the Great Tribulation should find us wanting.

As far as "the year Christ is going to return" is concerned, I've made it clear that this is NOT to be disclosed to anyone, but rather "the watch" in which it will arrive. Haven't you understood when I say "in or around the year"?