Evangelizing Atheists - a good thing or bad??

[Mama Kidogo]

I would love to see atheists evangelized at an Adventist university no matter who did it - but there are usually precious few atheists at any explicitly religious school because the application document requires that you self-declare to be a Christian in our case.

But this article is not talking about going to the Pontifical University in Rome (I would hope that most of those students would not be athiest).

As for the under 30's group in Italy - surveys have been done no matter that 30% of the overall population are practicing Catholics in Italy.

It is that 1981 group and younger that are being found as atheist or agnostic in the colleges and universities.

This cannot be blamed on missions to atheists "lying" - I think.


in Christ,

Bob

He spoke a lie whether intentional or not. Something nearly all of us have been guilty of.
There are people who spread a false gospel not knowing they are spreading a false gospel. Are they speaking truth or a lie? (I'm not saying the man on the video is spreading a false gospel but making a point)
Why inflate the numbers? There are reasons people speak untruths. many are well intentioned but that is not a valid excuse. If the truth is not sufficient the work is not worthwhile.

 

[BobRyan]

Another kook.

I can't get that video to play all the way through --

But this one does

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R889pu1ZIJw

The guy is kind of interesting - never heard of him before.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,
I agree that one atheist is reason enough. Why inflate the stats concerning Catholics to tug at hearts? If he'd specified a collage at least then people would know where to focus. I mean going to the closest Adventist university to evangelize the 90% atheist problem wouldn't leave you with a good impression of the one who sent you.

I would love to see atheists evangelized at an Adventist university no matter who did it - but there are usually precious few atheists at any explicitly religious school because the application document requires that you self-declare to be a Christian in our case.

But this article is not talking about going to the Pontifical University in Rome (I would hope that most of those students would not be athiest).

As for the under 30's group in Italy - surveys have been done no matter that 30% of the overall population are practicing Catholics in Italy.

LifeSiteNews.com

Italy’s Last Catholic Generation? Mass Attendance in “Collapse” among Under-30s | News | LifeSite


Mon Aug 9, 2010 - 12:15 pm EST
Italy’s Last Catholic Generation? Mass Attendance in “Collapse” among Under-30s
By Hilary White
ROME, August 8, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com)

– Despite regular polls showing that about 30 percent of Italian Catholics claim to attend Sunday Mass regularly, a closer look at the numbers reveals a more uncertain future for the Italian Church, and consequently for Italy as a moral vanguard in Europe.

For many years, Italians responding to surveys have said that between 30 and 50 percent attend Mass more than once a month. But in 2004-5, the Patriarchate of Venice undertook a study that showed the actual attendance numbers were no more than 22.7 percent, with only 15 percent attending every Sunday. Those who attended one to three times were 7.7 percent. The survey noted that Mass attendance increases with the level of education, in contrast to findings in other parts of Europe.
While this number still compares favorably to that of other EU countries like France, where regular attendance is thought to be below 5 percent, it is likely to slide further in the coming years.

A survey conducted by Professor Paolo Segatti of the University of Milan, published in the magazine “Il Regno” in May, found that the news is even worse among younger Italians. Among those born after 1981, Segatti found, Mass attendance, self-identification as Catholic, and adherence to Catholic teaching are “in collapse.” Segatti predicted a near future in which Catholicism holds only “minority status in Italy.”

“It is imaginable that when the children of the younger generation become parents, they will make a further contribution to secularization.”
Segatti writes. “The youngest Italians are the ones to whom religious experience is most foreign. They clearly go to church less, believe in God less, pray less, trust the Church less, identify themselves as Catholic less, and say that being Italian does not mean being Catholic.”

Vatican expert and Italian journalist Sandro Magister noted last week that the loss of faith among young people has strongly affected women: “The collapse is so clear that it also wipes out the differences in religious practice between men and women – the latter of whom tend much more to be practicing – typical of the previous generations. Among the youngest, very few of the women go to church, on a par with the men.”

It is that 1981 group and younger that are being found as atheist or agnostic in the colleges and universities.

This cannot be blamed on missions to atheists "lying" - I think.

He spoke a lie whether intentional or not.

Was there some proof of it?

From the article above - the problem with the 30's group lines up with what he said about college students self-identifying ... is there some other study that you have for that group to support your claim?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

I can't get that video to play all the way through --

But this one does

Masons in the Hierarchy - YouTube

The guy is kind of interesting - never heard of him before.

in Christ,

Bob

I thought he might appeal to you; his approach is similar to your own.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought he might appeal to you; his approach is similar to your own.

Good point. -I find a number of areas where I agree with Catholics on this board.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good point. -I find a number of areas where I agree with Catholics on this board.

No doubt, but I think his heterodoxy is problematic.

 

[Rhamiel]

Good point. -I find a number of areas where I agree with Catholics on this board.

would you mind elaborating, just for the sake of clarity

 

[BobRyan]

would you mind elaborating, just for the sake of clarity

1. Well if you check my signature line .... you will see it.
2. If you check the "Lord's Day" thread that got sent to the Sabbath and the Law forum after the request of MoreCoffee... you will see it.
3. If you check the OSAS thread you will see it.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-68/#post65933820


As for the 2nd point above --


The Faith Explained
http://www.christianforums.com/t7537625-57/#post65932873

Dies Domini
http://www.christianforums.com/t7537625-51/#post65926322
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No doubt, but I think his heterodoxy is problematic.

Did your video link spell out his "heterodoxy" so we could all see ?

Or is that just your opinion of him in general?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did your video link spell out his "heterodoxy" so we could all see ?

Or is that just your opinion of him in general?

The link to the article in my post explains his heterodoxy to a degree.

 

[BobRyan]

The link to the article in my post explains his heterodoxy to a degree.

Does it show him making the statement of heterodoxy?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does it show him making the statement of heterodoxy?

have a read and see

Here's one assessment >>> Library : Canon Law and Fr. Gruner's Suspension (a divinis) - Catholic Culture

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting link

Moreover, when the Apostolic Signatura upholds the suspension a divinis of Fr. Gruner, it presumably does so as an official act of the Holy See. For in accordance with canon 361 of the Code of Canon Law, "[.] the term Apostolic See or Holy See mean not only the Roman Pontiff, but also, unless the contrary is clear from the nature of things or from the context, the Secretariat of State, the Council for the public affairs of the Church, and the other Institutes of the Roman Curia." Therefore, regardless of who initially imposed this penal sanction against Fr. Gruner, the Holy See formally recognizes the legitimacy of this censure. Under canon law, the Apostolic Signatura, and not the Committee for the Defense of the Priesthood, is the judicial forum competent within the Church to render definitive judgment with regards to the legality of Fr. Gruner's suspension.

Which is interesting in the light of the Pope saying he forever extinguished the Jesuit order as well.

Then your link goes on to say

The second argument proposed by this committee within their press release is as follows: "[.] the `suspension' purports to be based on Father Gruner's failure to "to `obey' an order to `return' to Avellino and take up permanent residence in Italy after he was prevented by Vatican officials from finding another bishop. [.] Quite simply, then, Father Gruner cannot be `ordered' to enter Italy as an illegal alien. Under Canon 22 the Church agrees to be bound by applicable civil law on immigration. Since Father Gruner cannot be forced to do what is illegal under civil law, his `suspension' is groundless.

Which looks like so-much politics and finger pointing.

Were you accusing me of not obeying an order from the Vatican? Politics?

I thought the issue was heterodoxy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interesting link...

Like I said; you see things in a quirky way.

 

[BobRyan]

I call it "inconvenient details"

 

[MoreCoffee]

I call it "inconvenient details"

Others would call it something else

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed. Details are not welcomed by everyone.

 

[SolomonVII]

He spoke a lie whether intentional or not.

The reason I would be very careful not to call someone a liar hinges on the fact that the deliberate intent to deceive is very much at the heart of lying.
When it comes to studies, the axiom about there being lies, damned lies, and statistics is the one to follow. As a matter of course, it is better to take any set of statistical numbers dealing with social matters with a grain of salt. They say more about the person doing the studying than the person being studied. More than that, any good study will only end up telling us what we already know.
Former Christian lands everywhere are filled with people losing their religion. We only need two eyes to see that. Every study posted here confirms the same. Pope Benedict XVI didn't need to do a study to say the same either, that Europe is in a state where re-conversion has become necessary. We only need to go the a United Church to see the down stairs halls being rented out to gays for square dancing on the Fridays, but on Sunday the spackling of grey haired ladies are who are actually attending the actual religious stuff in the church proper.

lie1 [lahy] Show IPA
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. Synonyms: prevarication, falsification. Antonyms: truth.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.
4.
the charge or accusation of telling a lie: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
verb (used without object), lied, ly·ing.
5.
to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
6.
to express what is false; convey a false impression.

I personally also would differentiate between blarney and hyperbole and deliberate lying, even though technically they are defined as the same. That is because I like a good story and all the fixin's.

 

[BobRyan]

And then there is
http://www.christianforums.com/t7830272-11/#post65933647

Where we see evidence from Catholic sources themselves that what is being said about the under 30 age group in Italy -- in general (in that missionary video) is very likely.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SolomonVII]

And then there is
http://www.christianforums.com/t7830272-11/#post65933647

Where we see evidence from Catholic sources themselves that what is being said about the under 30 age group in Italy -- in general (in that missionary video) is very likely.

in Christ,

Bob

I came across that article too, although I never postedit, nor noticed it when it was posted.