Evangelical Presbyterian

kenrapoza

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That really depends on what you mean by "Evangelical Presbyterian". You may be referring to the EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church) denomination? If so, we would be happy to fill you in.

Nowadays the term "evangelical" is thrown around often, but it means different things to different people. The historical meaning of the word defines the traditional Protestant teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. To the modern media, it just refers to a conservative voter demographic that takes their "religion" seriously, for whatever reason. To many other people it is a reference to contemporary American "evangelicalism", which is kind of a newer pan-denominational movement with revivalistic roots.

Anyways - if you could provide a little clarification to your question that would be most helpful!
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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What are the major difference between regular Presbyterian and Evangelical Presbyterian?
First, let me get some 'housekeeping' stuff out of the way: It's good to see another Libertarian, especially one your age.

Ok. There is some question of what you refer to. If you're speaking of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church then you can directly look at what they have to say.

By the way, both Hey Mikey and i are members of the EPC, so if you have further questions, i'm sure that one of us would be available.

If you're speaking of the denomination, there are some majour differences between us and the PCUSA.

First: While we allow female ministers and elders in the EPC, we do not mandate them. A congregation is free to chose it's own leadership.

Second: We do not have any specific guidlines concerning charismatic manifestations, but leave that to the guidance of the local church. For sure, where abuses occur, the local Presbytery would look into the matter.

Third: Unlike the PCUSA, the congregation owns and controls it's assets. If a congregation choses to leave the EPC, their property and assets go with them.

Other distinctions are found at the EPC web site.
 
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dawnsday

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That really depends on what you mean by "Evangelical Presbyterian". You may be referring to the EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church) denomination? If so, we would be happy to fill you in.

Nowadays the term "evangelical" is thrown around often, but it means different things to different people. The historical meaning of the word defines the traditional Protestant teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. To the modern media, it just refers to a conservative voter demographic that takes their "religion" seriously, for whatever reason. To many other people it is a reference to contemporary American "evangelicalism", which is kind of a newer pan-denominational movement with revivalistic roots.

Anyways - if you could provide a little clarification to your question that would be most helpful!

yes, I mean the EPC. I've been on the site for hours...but I was hoping someone could bring it down to layman's terms for me? lol
 
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kenrapoza

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yes, I mean the EPC. I've been on the site for hours...but I was hoping someone could bring it down to layman's terms for me? lol

Oh ok, no problem. BTW, as CDL mentioned above, both he and HeyMikey are EPC guys and both are very knowledgable and great resources.

So - in layman's terms - the EPC is generally considered to be a moderately conservative Presbyterian denomination. They are more conservative than the PC(USA) (which is the largest and most liberal Presbyterian church body in our country) in that they are not as influenced by higher criticism and neo-orthodoxy. Thus, the term evangelical probably fits them well as they hold to Biblical inerrancy and teach salvation through faith in Christ alone. However, they tend to not be as conservative as other Presbyterian denominations such as the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) in that they allow their presbyteries to determine whether or not they will have female minsters, they are more open to the charismatic movement, they are not necessarily strong on some Reformed doctrines such as the Doctrines of Grace (commonly called Calvinism), and they allow more latitude when it comes to subscription to our doctrinal standards. One of the things you will find though, is that because of this "latitudinarian" approach, there can be significant variation between presbyteries and even congregations within a presbytery. Some of them will be as confessionally Reformed as any PCA or OPC church, others will barely be recognizable as Presbyterian and will be similar to other broadly evangelical churches.

One of terms that you will tend to hear in Reformed and Lutheran circles is "confessional". This doesn't have anything to do with confessing our sins or anything like that, rather it refers to how strongly a church adheres to it's doctrinal statements, or confession of faith. Thus, a church that closely abides by it's confession of faith is said to be confessional. In the Presbyterian tradition, our confession of faith is embodied in the Westminster Standards, consisting of the Westminster Confession, the Westminster Larger Catechism and the Westminster Shorter Catechism. If we were to put the American Presbyterian denominations on a spectrum from least confessional (liberal) to more confessional, we would probably rank them in this way:

PC(USA) -> EPC -> PCA -> ARP -> OPC -> RPCNA

Does this help at all? Let us know if you have any more questions!
 
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dawnsday

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First, let me get some 'housekeeping' stuff out of the way: It's good to see another Libertarian, especially one your age.

Ok. There is some question of what you refer to. If you're speaking of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church then you can directly look at what they have to say.

By the way, both Hey Mikey and i are members of the EPC, so if you have further questions, i'm sure that one of us would be available.

If you're speaking of the denomination, there are some majour differences between us and the PCUSA.

First: While we allow female ministers and elders in the EPC, we do not mandate them. A congregation is free to chose it's own leadership.

Second: We do not have any specific guidlines concerning charismatic manifestations, but leave that to the guidance of the local church. For sure, where abuses occur, the local Presbytery would look into the matter.

Third: Unlike the PCUSA, the congregation owns and controls it's assets. If a congregation choses to leave the EPC, their property and assets go with them.

Other distinctions are found at the EPC web site.

Could you help me on this one?

I'm wondering if I understand predestination, as the site, states:

10.4 Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

that...you can want really really bad to believe with all your heart and soul and never have a chance at salvation??
 
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dawnsday

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Oh ok, no problem. BTW, as CDL mentioned above, both he and HeyMikey are EPC guys and both are very knowledgable and great resources.

So - in layman's terms - the EPC is generally considered to be a moderately conservative Presbyterian denomination. They are more conservative than the PC(USA) (which is the largest and most liberal Presbyterian church body in our country) in that they are not as influenced by higher criticism and neo-orthodoxy. Thus, the term evangelical probably fits them well as they hold to Biblical inerrancy and teach salvation through faith in Christ alone. However, they tend to not be as conservative as other Presbyterian denominations such as the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) in that they allow their presbyteries to determine whether or not they will have female minsters, they are more open to the charismatic movement, they are not necessarily strong on some Reformed doctrines such as the Doctrines of Grace (commonly called Calvinism), and they allow more latitude when it comes to subscription to our doctrinal standards. One of the things you will find though, is that because of this "latitudinarian" approach, there can be significant variation between presbyteries and even congregations within a presbytery. Some of them will be as confessionally Reformed as any PCA or OPC church, others will barely be recognizable as Presbyterian and will be similar to other broadly evangelical churches.

One of terms that you will tend to hear in Reformed and Lutheran circles is "confessional". This doesn't have anything to do with confessing our sins or anything like that, rather it refers to how strongly a church adheres to it's doctrinal statements, or confession of faith. Thus, a church that closely abides by it's confession of faith is said to be confessional. In the Presbyterian tradition, our confession of faith is embodied in the Westminster Standards, consisting of the Westminster Confession, the Westminster Larger Catechism and the Westminster Shorter Catechism. If we were to put the American Presbyterian denominations on a spectrum from least confessional (liberal) to more confessional, we would probably rank them in this way:

PC(USA) -> EPC -> PCA -> ARP -> OPC -> RPCNA

Does this help at all? Let us know if you have any more questions!

That does help...on my post just previous I started skimming through the Westminster Catechism...thanks for that...

My church is EPC, however, does not require adherance to the westminster confession...just something the call the essentials...which I need to find...but I like to know everything I can. I've never chosen to be a member of a church, nor been asked. So, kind of a big deal to me!
 
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kenrapoza

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That does help...on my post just previous I started skimming through the Westminster Catechism...thanks for that...

My church is EPC, however, does not require adherance to the westminster confession...just something the call the essentials...which I need to find...but I like to know everything I can. I've never chosen to be a member of a church, nor been asked. So, kind of a big deal to me!

Good for you, I think that it's always a good idea to understand what your church believes, and where they are coming from in their preaching. The Westminster Standards are highly regarded in Christianity as being a well thought-out and insightful statement of Christian belief.

My church body (PCA) is similar in that in order to be a member, we don't require the lay people to specifically adhere to the Westminster Standards. We teach them about our doctrine in the new members classes and make sure they understand that we will be proceeding in that direction, but there are very basic requirements for them to join. Essentially, it comes down to them understanding the gospel and the person and work of Christ. However, when it comes to our Elders and Pastors, we have much stricter requirements. They are required to thoroughly understand the Westminster Standards and profess them as being a faithful summary of the Scriptures. If they later find themselves in disagreement with our doctrine, then they are to make that known to the presbytery in good faith.
 
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kenrapoza

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Could you help me on this one?

I'm wondering if I understand predestination, as the site, states:

10.4 Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

that...you can want really really bad to believe with all your heart and soul and never have a chance at salvation??

Although predestination is a difficult concept for those who first encounter it because it grates against our sensibilities, it is nonetheless taught clearly in Scripture. Good news though - it is not what you think it is!

What the above point is saying is that salvation is a work of God alone and we cannot earn our salvation in any way. Furthermore, because it is God the Holy Spirit who graciously works regeneration in our heart, He has known from eternity past whom He will call to Himself. We cannot try to live a good enough life to earn God's favor. But the underlying question is why does it have to be this way? It is because we are fallen creatures and dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). The natural man does not want anything to do with submitting to Christ. The Westminster Confession puts it this way:

By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. (WCF 6.2)

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. (WCF 6.4)

A good illustration of this is Jesus and Lazarus. Jesus raised Lazarus after he was already dead for four days. Lazarus had nothing to do with it, he didn't contribute to his new life, he was completely passive, he was dead. Christ did it by his own power.

So - specifically to your question - if a person has not been regenerated by God's grace, they will not want to be saved. In others words - nobody who desires salvation in Christ will be denied! All who call upon the name of the Lord for salvation will be saved. If somebody desires to follow Christ and believe on him for salvation, it is because God has already been at work with this person. There are people who outwardly adhere to some Christian religion, but they themselves are not true believers, they are there out of some religious obligation or for the sense of community or whatever. Those are the people who are being referenced in the quote you supplied above.
 
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hedrick

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that...you can want really really bad to believe with all your heart and soul and never have a chance at salvation??

The original concept of grace was that any desire to follow God is the result of the Holy Spirit already being active. It should make us humble and grateful, but not cause us to doubt our salvation. That is, anyone who is moving towards faith should be confident that God was there before he was and has already prepared the way.
 
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Could you help me on this one?

I'm wondering if I understand predestination, as the site, states:

10.4 Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

that...you can want really really bad to believe with all your heart and soul and never have a chance at salvation??
Ok, this is the Westminster Confession of Faith, and is certainly not unique to the EPC.

To understand WC 10.4, you can't isolate it from the other sections.

Starting at 10.1 this first sentence sets the context:
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

It sets forth that the confession is speaking of the Elect: Those God has chosen.

The first word of 10.4 speaks of "Others", that is the NON elect. They can intellectually understand some of the gospel, but are not able in their own strength to accept Christ, and therefore cannot be saved.

This is just a rehash of basic Calvinism.

Philippians 2:12-13 has a key to understanding what the Reformers are saying in this section of the confession:

12So then, my beloved, (Z)just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your (AA)salvation with (AB)fear and trembling; 13for it is (AC)God who is at work in you, both to will and to work (AD)for His good pleasure.



In section 10.1 of the confession, the people being referenced are those who God has worked in to be able to desire salvation.


Section 10.4 speaks of those who God has not worked within.


The basic premise is that God must enable men to believe the gospel. Those who He has enabled will desire salvation, those who He has NOT enabled will not desire salvation, and therefore never come to Christ.
 
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dawnsday

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Ok, this is the Westminster Confession of Faith, and is certainly not unique to the EPC.

To understand WC 10.4, you can't isolate it from the other sections.

Starting at 10.1 this first sentence sets the context: All those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

It sets forth that the confession is speaking of the Elect: Those God has chosen.

The first word of 10.4 speaks of "Others", that is the NON elect. They can intellectually understand some of the gospel, but are not able in their own strength to accept Christ, and therefore cannot be saved.

This is just a rehash of basic Calvinism.

Philippians 2:12-13 has a key to understanding what the Reformers are saying in this section of the confession:

12So then, my beloved, (Z)just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your (AA)salvation with (AB)fear and trembling; 13for it is (AC)God who is at work in you, both to will and to work (AD)for His good pleasure.



In section 10.1 of the confession, the people being referenced are those who God has worked in to be able to desire salvation.


Section 10.4 speaks of those who God has not worked within.


The basic premise is that God must enable men to believe the gospel. Those who He has enabled will desire salvation, those who He has NOT enabled will not desire salvation, and therefore never come to Christ.

so, if I desire to come to Christ...then i'm elect? what about people who used to desire it, then changed their minds?
 
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hedrick

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so, if I desire to come to Christ...then i'm elect? what about people who used to desire it, then changed their minds?

The standard answer is that they weren't actually elect in the first place. In my opinion election is something that only makes sense when you look at things from God's long-run perspective. It says that God is in control, and we can thank him for everything.

We can only understand where a life is going when we see the end. At that point we will see how everything combined to produce the result it did.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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so, if I desire to come to Christ...then i'm elect? what about people who used to desire it, then changed their minds?
If you're desire is for Christ's provision for your redemption, not how to get rich, or to have perfect health, or how to lose those nagging 10 lbs --he says to a pregnant Lady, not a smart move-- or...

You get the idea. The rest of that stuff you can get from Oprah or Suzi Ormand, or Richard Simmons, or...you don't need Jesus for that.

A lot of people desire what they can GET from Christ.
 
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dawnsday

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If you're desire is for Christ's provision for your redemption, not how to get rich, or to have perfect health, or how to lose those nagging 10 lbs --he says to a pregnant Lady, not a smart move-- or...

You get the idea. The rest of that stuff you can get from Oprah or Suzi Ormand, or Richard Simmons, or...you don't need Jesus for that.

A lot of people desire what they can GET from Christ.

All I want is his grace. The rest of my "wants" are useless and I don't want them from Him. I'm pretty sure with Him, in a relationship with Him, whatever I have will be enough.
 
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