ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
This has been my experience as well, the ELCA churches I attended became too liberal but beautiful and traditional liturgy. And the Bach!
ELS churches tend to be more high church than WELS

My suspicion is that, boots on the ground, most LCMS and ELCA congregations aren't as "conservative"/"liberal" (respectively) as the "upper management" might be.

I've never visited a WELS congregation, and I've only visited an LCMS one a few times. But, again, boots on the ground, in the ELCA I've just found churches who believe the Confessions and preach the Gospel. The only way to know anyone's politics would be to ask them, and that just seems like poor taste in the context of Church.

I am, personally, pretty liberal in my social politics. But I haven't talked politics with my pastor or with most people in the congregation, so I couldn't even tell you who people in my church vote for.

Politics are important, of course, but what really matters is that we are confessing the faith. Because, at the end of the day, if the Law is being preached as the Law, and the Gospel is being preached as the Gospel, then I should find that both me and the person next to me in the pew--regardless of who we vote for--should be hearing God's word, which cuts sharper than a two-edged sword.

Even if my neighbor votes for the opposite person as me, we should both be made uncomfortable by the seriousness of the Law--that we are sinners; and both comforted by the sweet, soothing, and holy word of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who saves us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

LizaMarie

Newbie
Jan 17, 2015
1,201
921
✟141,386.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
My suspicion is that, boots on the ground, most LCMS and ELCA congregations aren't as "conservative"/"liberal" (respectively) as the "upper management" might be.

I've never visited a WELS congregation, and I've only visited an LCMS one a few times. But, again, boots on the ground, in the ELCA I've just found churches who believe the Confessions and preach the Gospel. The only way to know anyone's politics would be to ask them, and that just seems like poor taste in the context of Church.

I am, personally, pretty liberal in my social politics. But I haven't talked politics with my pastor or with most people in the congregation, so I couldn't even tell you who people in my church vote for.

Politics are important, of course, but what really matters is that we are confessing the faith. Because, at the end of the day, if the Law is being preached as the Law, and the Gospel is being preached as the Gospel, then I should find that both me and the person next to me in the pew--regardless of who we vote for--should be hearing God's word, which cuts sharper than a two-edged sword.

Even if my neighbor votes for the opposite person as me, we should both be made uncomfortable by the seriousness of the Law--that we are sinners; and both comforted by the sweet, soothing, and holy word of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who saves us.

-CryptoLutheran
I believe you are right. The ELCA church I attended out on the West Coast in the late 80's early '90's(right after the merger) was a large church with 3 pastors. All three were pro-life.
However the one I switched too when I moved here to the upper midwest the pastor was more progressive. The current WELS Congregation I attend(a small church) has a mix of very conservative and those who vote Democrat. (And I only know that because my husband was on the Church council and golfs with some and they have mentioned the last election) But yes I agree we don't talk politics (and I have no idea who my pastor voted for) That's how I like it! He preaches Christ crucified.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,223,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I love the gorgeous Evangelical Catholic worship that we see associated with LCMS/LCC parishes in North America, such as that of my friend @MarkRohfrietsch, and which historically the Church of Sweden and the Augustana Synod were known for. I am curious, to what extent does this high church liturgy exist in other traditional Lutheran churches, including remaining conservative ELCA parishes and NALC parishes, as well as Lutheran churches elsewhere in the world, and more specifically, is the LCMS doing anything to promote that style of liturgy which we see very heavily reflected in the 2006 Lutheran Service Book, with its beautiful services for the Eucharist and the Divine Office, over contemporary “praise and worship”/“Christian Rock” type aliturgical worship?
Following. As a Catholic son of a once upon a time Augustana Lutheran mother. I never got much of a dose of Lutheranism of any variety but it still interests me. I’d more like a return to the 1965 Catholic missal in actual keeping with the words of Vatican II instead of whats popular now. Anyway, following this with interest.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,223,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Following. As a Catholic son of a once upon a time Augustana Lutheran mother. I never got much of a dose of Lutheranism of any variety but it still interests me. I’d more like a return to the 1965 Catholic missal in actual keeping with the words of Vatican II instead of whats popular now. Anyway, following this with interest.
C’mon guys. I didn’t intend to kill a great discussion by my last post. I was interested in learning a bit about Augustana. I know it was mostly Swedish, but my mom’s family was totally Danish. And that in a time when ethnic mixing of Lutherans was rather uncommon.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟816,720.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Following. As a Catholic son of a once upon a time Augustana Lutheran mother. I never got much of a dose of Lutheranism of any variety but it still interests me. I’d more like a return to the 1965 Catholic missal in actual keeping with the words of Vatican II instead of whats popular now. Anyway, following this with interest.
Not sure about the US, but in Canada, in the English speaking parishes, there has been a bit of a restoration in the translation of the Mass. LSB has 5 settings of the Mass; 1 and 2 are post vatican 2 and not commonly used in Catholic Churches, that is where they and their musical settings originated. 3 is the old common service; pretty much derived from the German translation of the pre-trent Mass, relying heavily on Cranmer's BCP for the english translation (although updated a bit from the 1941 book). 4 follows the format of the first Swedish Mass implemented when they went Lutheran, and 5 follows the format of Luther's German Choral Mass.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟767,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Following. As a Catholic son of a once upon a time Augustana Lutheran mother. I never got much of a dose of Lutheranism of any variety but it still interests me. I’d more like a return to the 1965 Catholic missal in actual keeping with the words of Vatican II instead of whats popular now. Anyway, following this with interest.
It really varies across places in the states, even in the same synod and town. At my previous ELCA church the service was closer to a pre-2011 changes to the Mass. I am honestly not sure how close that is to the service you are looking to. But it is very important to realize that while the ELCA is closer to the RCC in liturgical form, overall, they are very much on the liberal side, even the more conservative congregations.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,223,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
It really varies across places in the states, even in the same synod and town. At my previous ELCA church the service was closer to a pre-2011 changes to the Mass. I am honestly not sure how close that is to the service you are looking to. But it is very important to realize that while the ELCA is closer to the RCC in liturgical form, overall, they are very much on the liberal side, even the more conservative congregations.
What I’m looking for may not be appropriate to this forum, but what I am curious about is the ability to form a liturgy from historical practice that would function as a liturgy for a Lutheran Ordinariate. Something both Lutheran and Catholic. Sounds like the ELCA kinda sorta did that already in something similar to a Catholic novus ordo liturgy. Me, as more traditional, would like something pre-1970. I tolerate the 1970 Catholic version but to me it seems like a liturgical low pass. The Anglican Ordinariates did so much better a job of it IMHO. The vetus ordo works for me but I wish it were predominantly in English. Thus my opinion about the 1965 version. I am not at all trying to derail this discussion. And I’m not likely to join the ELCA due to how liberal it is. There is enough of that for me in the Catholic Church at the moment without wanting more. I guess I am a bit of a curmudgeon.
 
Upvote 0

Shane R

Priest
Supporter
Jan 18, 2012
2,276
1,097
Southeast Ohio
✟535,741.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
I imagine that would look something like Divine Service setting III (which is comparable in LBW and LSB) with some tweaking of the Confession and Absolution and the current Roman Canon inserted for the consecration of the gifts.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟767,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What I’m looking for may not be appropriate to this forum, but what I am curious about is the ability to form a liturgy from historical practice that would function as a liturgy for a Lutheran Ordinariate. Something both Lutheran and Catholic. Sounds like the ELCA kinda sorta did that already in something similar to a Catholic novus ordo liturgy. Me, as more traditional, would like something pre-1970. I tolerate the 1970 Catholic version but to me it seems like a liturgical low pass. The Anglican Ordinariates did so much better a job of it IMHO. The vetus ordo works for me but I wish it were predominantly in English. Thus my opinion about the 1965 version. I am not at all trying to derail this discussion. And I’m not likely to join the ELCA due to how liberal it is. There is enough of that for me in the Catholic Church at the moment without wanting more. I guess I am a bit of a curmudgeon.

I imagine that would look something like Divine Service setting III (which is comparable in LBW and LSB) with some tweaking of the Confession and Absolution and the current Roman Canon inserted for the consecration of the gifts.

Bingo, Setting III sounds about right. The traditional Lutheran service is more grounded in what was supposedly an older liturgy. These links might be of help to you:
Luther's Reform of the Mass - Lutheran Reformation
Martin Luther’s 3 Services
Luther's Liturgical Reforms
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,223,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Bingo, Setting III sounds about right. The traditional Lutheran service is more grounded in what was supposedly an older liturgy. These links might be of help to you:
Luther's Reform of the Mass - Lutheran Reformation
Martin Luther’s 3 Services
Luther's Liturgical Reforms
My looking at the Catholic 1965 liturgy came up with two sides of a coin. One that said the 1965 liturgy was merely what could be done quickly in creating essentially a whole new rite. Not very encouraging. The other found it a sort of best of both worlds, being traditional AND in English. At least it provided the text, but I'm not sure the 1965 version is permitted or in use anywhere. The truth might be in the middle of these two articles.

RORATE CÆLI: The Mass of 1965: back to the future? Why it is not an option

A Dream Come True: 1965 Missal Online!

Anyway, I'm still interested in your discussions on traditional Lutherans liturgies as I'm interested in what Catholics could learn from them. I have so benefited from the Anglican Ordinariate liturgy. That is to some degree a mixture of elements and maybe even a work in progress, but it does seem to encompass the right language for me (English, as my Latin was pretty good but I am less and less competent in it for lack of practice) and at the same time a reverence sometimes lost in the novus ordo Catholic liturgy.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟816,720.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I imagine that would look something like Divine Service setting III (which is comparable in LBW and LSB) with some tweaking of the Confession and Absolution and the current Roman Canon inserted for the consecration of the gifts.
Hi Shane, I agree with your assessment. DS III is "The order of Holy Communion" on Page [15] of "The Lutheran Hymnal". Page [5] is "The Order of Morning Service Without Communion" (a.k.a. The Anti-Communion, or Misa anti-communio).

The General Rubrics are found on Page [4] state: Congregations are urged to let the basic structure of the service remain intact. The wide choice permitted in the Rubrics makes it possible to have the Service as simple or as Elaborate as the circumstances of each congregation may indicate."
We are a little different than the Catholic and Anglican Churches regarding Liturgy; some Churches (ours is one) use a very "catholic" form of the liturgy of the Sacrament yet remain middle of the road. Many of these options are included in various Hymnal and Liturgical supplements. while others are free keep a very simple form. One local Anglican Parish used to do the old (60 something BoCP,) not sung, at the later service a sung service from the Alternate services book that was 99.9% LSB DS I and II.

Pretty much any approved liturgy (by our Church and those in fellowship with us) are OK to use or borrow from. Surprising to some; pre-reformation liturgical material is OK also, with the caveat that it does neither conflict with, nor is forbidden by Scripture. You will see a lot of diversity; some is regional, some is cultural, some is practical in Lutheranism. Most is "orthodoxly" Lutheran within the Confessional Lutheran Synods.
 
Upvote 0