The Liturgist

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I love the gorgeous Evangelical Catholic worship that we see associated with LCMS/LCC parishes in North America, such as that of my friend @MarkRohfrietsch, and which historically the Church of Sweden and the Augustana Synod were known for. I am curious, to what extent does this high church liturgy exist in other traditional Lutheran churches, including remaining conservative ELCA parishes and NALC parishes, as well as Lutheran churches elsewhere in the world, and more specifically, is the LCMS doing anything to promote that style of liturgy which we see very heavily reflected in the 2006 Lutheran Service Book, with its beautiful services for the Eucharist and the Divine Office, over contemporary “praise and worship”/“Christian Rock” type aliturgical worship?
 

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Most of the LCMS is liturgical. The LCMS as a body certainly tends to promote historical liturgical worship. However, on the ground, there are some churches that have gone for evangelical/charismatic type of worship. The reason for this, besides being influenced by trends and other churches, is that there was a time when the LCMS was heading in a liberal direction, which opened the door for this kind of worship, but it has since flourished in orthodoxy, so that many of the orthodox Lutheran bodies around the world look to the LCMS for materials and practice.

Given that the LCMS does not have an episcopal form of church government, I think they may find it a little difficult to steer the ship. That is, you may find a fairly broad range of LCMS churches. But I suppose this is true of most bodies. But yes, I think there is a general desire in the LCMS to return to the historical worship, because it is recognised that how we worship influences our theology, and our theology influences our style of worship.
 
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Most of the LCMS is liturgical. The LCMS as a body certainly tends to promote historical liturgical worship. However, on the ground, there are some churches that have gone for evangelical/charismatic type of worship. The reason for this, besides being influenced by trends and other churches, is that there was a time when the LCMS was heading in a liberal direction, which opened the door for this kind of worship, but it has since flourished in orthodoxy, so that many of the orthodox Lutheran bodies around the world look to the LCMS for materials and practice.

Given that the LCMS does not have an episcopal form of church government, I think they may find it a little difficult to steer the ship. That is, you may find a fairly broad range of LCMS churches. But I suppose this is true of most bodies. But yes, I think there is a general desire in the LCMS to return to the historical worship, because it is recognised that how we worship influences our theology, and our theology influences our style of worship.
Having been Catholic for so long, I have to say that I much prefer our worship style. If they’d reverse it I’d probably leave and either go to a ND church or return to Catholicism where I’d receive all the sacraments. No offense or anything.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Having been Catholic for so long, I have to say that I much prefer our worship style. If they’d reverse it I’d probably leave and either go to a ND church or return to Catholicism where I’d receive all the sacraments. No offense or anything.

I doubt they would reverse it, unless your local pastor and elders and the regional overseers would really want it.

I grew up charismatic/Pentecostal and spent a lot of time in non-denominational churches, and there was a time when I was strongly opposed to liturgical worship, so I can understand the feeling. However, now I'm glad to be serving in a church body that only has liturgical worship. It's rich in God's Word, there is confession and absolution, and the gifts of God's body and blood. And there is room for reverence, joy, and mourning, whereas many contemporary churches in our day only have room for joy.
 
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tampasteve

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Most of the LCMS is liturgical. The LCMS as a body certainly tends to promote historical liturgical worship. However, on the ground, there are some churches that have gone for evangelical/charismatic type of worship. The reason for this, besides being influenced by trends and other churches, is that there was a time when the LCMS was heading in a liberal direction, which opened the door for this kind of worship, but it has since flourished in orthodoxy, so that many of the orthodox Lutheran bodies around the world look to the LCMS for materials and practice.

Given that the LCMS does not have an episcopal form of church government, I think they may find it a little difficult to steer the ship. That is, you may find a fairly broad range of LCMS churches. But I suppose this is true of most bodies. But yes, I think there is a general desire in the LCMS to return to the historical worship, because it is recognised that how we worship influences our theology, and our theology influences our style of worship.
Is that accurate though, on the ground as it were? I know there are some very High liturgical LCMS churches, Ft. Wayne comes to mind, but overall from the ones I have attended they are rather low service compared to some other Lutheran or Anglican churches. They do tend to maintain the liturgical rhythm, but the service itself is rather contemporary, contemporary music, and often eliminating the Eucharist and shortening the service accordingly.

Perhaps my sample size is just too local and too small, but from the people I have spoken with, I don't feel that it is.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Is that accurate though, on the ground as it were? I know there are some very High liturgical LCMS churches, Ft. Wayne comes to mind, but overall from the ones I have attended they are rather low service compared to some other Lutheran or Anglican churches. They do tend to maintain the liturgical rhythm, but the service itself is rather contemporary, contemporary music, and often eliminating the Eucharist and shortening the service accordingly.

Perhaps my sample size is just too local and too small, but from the people I have spoken with, I don't feel that it is.

Yeah, I guess it depends on the area, and I would anticipate that in more urban areas, they are probably a bit of a mixed bag. I don’t live in America, so I don’t have first hand experience, but all of the LCMS pastors I know of serve in liturgical churches.
 
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FaithT

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I doubt they would reverse it, unless your local pastor and elders and the regional overseers would really want it.

I grew up charismatic/Pentecostal and spent a lot of time in non-denominational churches, and there was a time when I was strongly opposed to liturgical worship, so I can understand the feeling. However, now I'm glad to be serving in a church body that only has liturgical worship. It's rich in God's Word, there is confession and absolution, and the gifts of God's body and blood. And there is room for reverence, joy, and mourning, whereas many contemporary churches in our day only have room for joy.
Why were you opposed to liturgical worship? I don’t really have a reason other than I prefer much more lively, contemporary worship.
 
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FaithT

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Is that accurate though, on the ground as it were? I know there are some very High liturgical LCMS churches, Ft. Wayne comes to mind, but overall from the ones I have attended they are rather low service compared to some other Lutheran or Anglican churches. They do tend to maintain the liturgical rhythm, but the service itself is rather contemporary, contemporary music, and often eliminating the Eucharist and shortening the service accordingly.

Perhaps my sample size is just too local and too small, but from the people I have spoken with, I don't feel that it is.
I’ve only been to two Lutheran churches. My own and a neighbors.’ The neighbors’ worship was almost identical to a Catholic Mass.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Why were you opposed to liturgical worship? I don’t really have a reason other than I prefer much more lively, contemporary worship.

Well, there's a lot I can say about this! I just viewed liturgical churches as dry and even counter to the Christian faith. The Bible does not command vestments and that whole "churchly" style, and I thought it was "religious" or "man-made", "void of the Holy Spirit." To me, the liturgical churches were nothing short of pagan, pharisaical, and demonic. But that could not be further from the truth, because the liturgy consists mainly of direct Bible passages or strong allusions to it — it's the literal words of the Holy Spirit, so it's anything but void of God's Word.

Essentially, I was wrapped up in conjuring up good feelings in myself and others, and I confused the Spirit with hype. I was very concerned about working on our church's (Hillsong London and later Fellowship Church) branding (I was doing graphic design/production for the church). I thought Sundays were for me serving in a team and being ecstatic, and I had a very narrow and confused understanding of what worship means. But then I came to realise the riches of God's Word, and that Sunday is primarily God serving us, and not us serving God. Our Lord speaks to us through His Word, and He gives us the free gift of Christ's body and blood, for our comfort. And in relation to this, we get to confess our sins, receive forgiveness, and offer up thanksgiving. And the liturgy leads us through all of this with the reverence it deserves, whereas before, the only liturgy I knew was really just a few watered-down pop-rock hymns, some motivational speech, encouragement to tithe, and an altar call, with Jesus' name sprinkled on top. There was just no substance, and I always learnt more about the pastor's personal life than I did about Jesus and what He means to us. No one explained to me what God's Word is, or what Baptism is, or what the Eucharist is. There was no catechesis, and no clear teaching; only vague ideas on how to overcome problems, succeed in life, become a better person, or how to aspire to be a leader. But God's Word, and a liturgy done right, is much richer than that.

Now, I still remember my strong feelings against the liturgy, and I have friends and family in charismatic, Pentecostal, and non-denominational churches, so I can understand the feeling. But I would encourage them to take a closer look at the liturgy and see just how rich it is in God's Word and how it moves us through repentance, confession, forgiveness, and thanksgiving, and that there is room for joy and peace, and also mourning, and everything tied together with reverence.
 
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Is that accurate though, on the ground as it were? I know there are some very High liturgical LCMS churches, Ft. Wayne comes to mind, but overall from the ones I have attended they are rather low service compared to some other Lutheran or Anglican churches. They do tend to maintain the liturgical rhythm, but the service itself is rather contemporary, contemporary music, and often eliminating the Eucharist and shortening the service accordingly.

Perhaps my sample size is just too local and too small, but from the people I have spoken with, I don't feel that it is.

That's been my (limited) experience as well. The LCMS congregations I visited tended toward a more "low service" with more contemporary elements, with monthly or bi-weekly Eucharist, and once a month reciting of the Creed.

One of the big "selling points" for me for attending the local ELCA congregation over the LCMS was that it was more liturgical, with the Lord's Supper and reciting the Creed every service. Likewise, since moving around a couple times, that's continued to be my general experience.

Note that I'm not trying to start an ELCA vs LCMS argument; only speaking of my own personal experience. I don't consider myself particularly "loyal" to the ELCA, I identify as Lutheran not specifically as a member of the ELCA. But thus far, in my personal experience, I've found the ELCA congregations in places where I've lived to be more Word and Sacrament focused than the alternatives I've experienced. Again, this is personal experience, not a judgment on all ECLA congregations and all LCMS congregations.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tigger45

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Our particular LCMS circuit is traditional with hymns only, chanting and no contemporary music with the Nicene creed and communion every week. Omitting communion just ain’t right in my book.
 
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LizaMarie

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Well, there's a lot I can say about this! I just viewed liturgical churches as dry and even counter to the Christian faith. The Bible does not command vestments and that whole "churchly" style, and I thought it was "religious" or "man-man", "void of the Holy Spirit." To me, the liturgical churches were nothing short of pagan, pharisaical, and demonic. But that could not be further from the truth, because the liturgy consists mainly of direct Bible passages or strong allusions to it — it's the literal words of the Holy Spirit, so it's anything but void of God's Word.

Essentially, I was wrapped up in conjuring up good feelings in myself and others, and I confused the Spirit with hype. I was very concerned about working on our church's (Hillsong London and later Fellowship Church) branding (I was doing graphic design/production for the church). I thought Sundays were for me serving in a team and being ecstatic, and I had a very narrow and confused understanding of what worship means. But then I came to realise the riches of God's Word, and that Sunday is primarily God serving us, and not us serving God. Our Lord speaks to us through His Word, and He gives us the free gift of Christ's body and blood, for our comfort. And in relation to this, we get to confess our sins, receive forgiveness, and offer up thanksgiving. And the liturgy leads us through all of this with the reverence it deserves, whereas before, the only liturgy I knew was really just a few watered-down pop-rock hymns, some motivational speech, encouragement to tithe, and an altar call, with Jesus' name sprinkled on top. There was just no substance, and I always learnt more about the pastor's personal life than I did about Jesus and what He means to us. No one explained to me what God's Word is, or what Baptism is, or what the Eucharist is. There was no catechesis, and no clear teaching; only vague ideas on how to overcome problems, succeed in life, become a better person, or how to aspire to be a leader. But God's Word, and a liturgy done right, is much richer than that.

Now, I still remember my strong feelings against the liturgy, and I have friends and family in charismatic, Pentecostal, and non-denominational churches, so I can understand the feeling. But I would encourage them to take a closer look at the liturgy and see just how rich it is in God's Word and how it moves us through repentance, confession, forgiveness, and thanksgiving, and that there is room for joy and peace, and also mourning, and everything tied together with reverence.
This has been my experience as well, and Lutheran new member or inquirer classes really blow the other Church's Bible studies I've attended out of the water. (I was raised and baptized LCMS, went Non denom for awhile.)
 
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LizaMarie

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That's been my (limited) experience as well. The LCMS congregations I visited tended toward a more "low service" with more contemporary elements, with monthly or bi-weekly Eucharist, and once a month reciting of the Creed.

One of the big "selling points" for me for attending the local ELCA congregation over the LCMS was that it was more liturgical, with the Lord's Supper and reciting the Creed every service. Likewise, since moving around a couple times, that's continued to be my general experience.

Note that I'm not trying to start an ELCA vs LCMS argument; only speaking of my own personal experience. I don't consider myself particularly "loyal" to the ELCA, I identify as Lutheran not specifically as a member of the ELCA. But thus far, in my personal experience, I've found the ELCA congregations in places where I've lived to be more Word and Sacrament focused than the alternatives I've experienced. Again, this is personal experience, not a judgment on all ECLA congregations and all LCMS congregations.

-CryptoLutheran
This has been my experience as well, the ELCA churches I attended became too liberal but beautiful and traditional liturgy. And the Bach!
ELS churches tend to be more high church than WELS
 
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Shane R

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This is most likely one of those subjects which is going to vary greatly by district. In the district that covered Southeastern Virginia nearly every congregation was experimenting with contemporary worship forms and for many the contemporary service was the only service.

Since moving to Ohio, the local district is generally low church but mostly traditional in service format. I've spoken to the local guy several times. My daughter attends the LCMS preschool. He doesn't own a chasuble and has no desire to. You seldom see him collared, except on Sundays. The church has a real pipe organ and a massive high altar, Eastward facing. He would prefer to celebrate communion facing the faithful but there's no moving that altar out without bringing in a contractor. So he does this weird thing where he stands at the South end so the people can half see him as he prays the consecration (I've seen this done elsewhere in the LCMS too). But he can sing the first four settings from LSB.

The most high church district I've had personal experience with was in South Texas. Yet, on fifth Sundays, many congregations would slip in a guitar service. You can do a guitar service with the LSB, there's even a supplement for that, but how often does it happen that way?

What has pretty well vanished, in my experience, is LW. With the exception of the military, where the chaplains usually have old LWs on hand, I haven't seen a parish with the 'blue books' in a good while.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is most likely one of those subjects which is going to vary greatly by district. In the district that covered Southeastern Virginia nearly every congregation was experimenting with contemporary worship forms and for many the contemporary service was the only service.

Since moving to Ohio, the local district is generally low church but mostly traditional in service format. I've spoken to the local guy several times. My daughter attends the LCMS preschool. He doesn't own a chasuble and has no desire to. You seldom see him collared, except on Sundays. The church has a real pipe organ and a massive high altar, Eastward facing. He would prefer to celebrate communion facing the faithful but there's no moving that altar out without bringing in a contractor. So he does this weird thing where he stands at the South end so the people can half see him as he prays the consecration (I've seen this done elsewhere in the LCMS too). But he can sing the first four settings from LSB.
.

Isn’t that in the rubrics of the 1552-1662 editions of the C of E Book of Common Prayer? Since the Lutheran liturgy in North America was initially copied from the BCP, before later additions from other sources (like the Eastern Orthodox Litany of Peace, which is in the 1959 Lutheran Hymnal and Service Book (ALC/LCA) and the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book) an intermediate text which I think was called the Common Service, or something like that, it would make sense. I have also seen a Methodist do it.

By the way, are any ELCA churches still using the “Green Book” (Lutheran Book of Worship, from which the “Blue Hymnal”, Lutheran Worship, was derived), or older liturgical texts? I am hoping so...

And does anyone, Lutheran or otherwise, other than some LCMS and WELS parishes use the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal? I noticed it was for sale, newly printed, on Cokesbury, which is mainly a Methodist supply house...
 
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Shane R

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Isn’t that in the rubrics of the 1552-1662 editions of the C of E Book of Common Prayer? Since the Lutheran liturgy in North America was initially copied from the BCP, before later additions from other sources (like the Eastern Orthodox Litany of Peace, which is in the 1959 Lutheran Hymnal and Service Book (ALC/LCA) and the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book) an intermediate text which I think was called the Common Service, or something like that, it would make sense. I have also seen a Methodist do it.

By the way, are any ELCA churches still using the “Green Book” (Lutheran Book of Worship, from which the “Blue Hymnal”, Lutheran Worship, was derived), or older liturgical texts? I am hoping so...

And does anyone, Lutheran or otherwise, other than some LCMS and WELS parishes use the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal? I noticed it was for sale, newly printed, on Cokesbury, which is mainly a Methodist supply house...
The green LBW does still show up. Many rural parishes have never switched. My grandparents were ELCA members at the time of their deaths and their small town church still used LBW. It is also the most prevalent book in NALC.

The 1941 Lutheran hymnal is standard for ELDoNA. I believe they are even printing it through their publishing house: Repristination Press.
 
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Men like Pastors Todd Wilkins and Wil Weedon were phenomenal leaders. We lost a few Pastors to E. Orthodoxy during this time, but I am amazed at how fast and thorough the reform took effect (compared to the bureaucratic waiting that Rome seems burdened with). Just 10 yrs ago, some were singing a dirge and now in 2021...well, Alleluia.

Most of the LCMS is liturgical. The LCMS as a body certainly tends to promote historical liturgical worship. However, on the ground, there are some churches that have gone for evangelical/charismatic type of worship. The reason for this, besides being influenced by trends and other churches, is that there was a time when the LCMS was heading in a liberal direction, which opened the door for this kind of worship, but it has since flourished in orthodoxy, so that many of the orthodox Lutheran bodies around the world look to the LCMS for materials and practice.

Given that the LCMS does not have an episcopal form of church government, I think they may find it a little difficult to steer the ship. That is, you may find a fairly broad range of LCMS churches. But I suppose this is true of most bodies. But yes, I think there is a general desire in the LCMS to return to the historical worship, because it is recognised that how we worship influences our theology, and our theology influences our style of worship.
 
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The green LBW does still show up. Many rural parishes have never switched. My grandparents were ELCA members at the time of their deaths and their small town church still used LBW. It is also the most prevalent book in NALC.

The 1941 Lutheran hymnal is standard for ELDoNA. I believe they are even printing it through their publishing house: Repristination Press.
That's true. Even my old ELCA Parish used the Green LBW in the small chapel for certain services, including Ash Wednesday. This was at least until 2020, I am not sure now.
 
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