Europeans: Do You Debate Muslims? Do You Speak Out Against Islam?

[Liza B.]

So if I have kids and tell them Santa is not real, you're first reaction isn't that I'm guilty of child abuse?

If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, worship in your home and your church, that's fine. But its when it becomes "you must join in" that I have a problem with it.

Um. Well, you're not American, so I guess your ideas of freedom are different than mine. But here in America, I have the absolute freedom to worship publicly. And so do you, and also, to choose not to worship.

I'm really puzzled by your response to Christmas vs. your unwillingness to even eat bacon around a Muslim, and I hope you'll address it.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Maybe an internet forum isn't the best representation of reality.

I know if all my interactions with Christians were based on what I've seen from some (most?) of them here over the years, I probably wouldn't want to talk to or associate with any Christians.

 

[Shadow]

Um. Well, you're not American, so I guess your ideas of freedom are different than mine. But here in America, I have the absolute freedom to worship publicly. And so do you, and also, to choose not to worship.

I'm really puzzled by your response to Christmas vs. your unwillingness to even eat bacon around a Muslim, and I hope you'll address it.

It is fair to call it out as a double standard. The only defence I can offer is that I don't live up to the idea of giving Islam and Christianity equal criticism because I don't have equal experience with them. I live in a Christian majority country rather than a Muslim majority country.

In terms of person to person relationships, we make compromises to get along with people. So if I had a Muslim friend, I'd try to remember not to serve him bacon or alcohol if he or she comes over for dinner. Maybe I could break the tension by making a joke about it or something. That's the same kind of thing you do if I was around a Christian or a Jew. If I had to say why I would do it like that, I think its because I treat religion as something that is a private activity between private individuals.

Legally, As a private individual I would have the right to tell my kids (if I had any) that Santa isn't real. But in practice that crosses a line and is taboo. Say they went to school and they tell all the other kids Santa isn't real, they will either get bullied for not getting presents or would become very unpopular with teachers and parents for telling the truth. Its pretty likely gossip will spread and I would be considered a bad father for that alone. It's not a huge leap of imagination.

For the reverse, if Christian kids went to a school with mainly atheist children, and they were bullied for believing in the virgin birth, Christian parents have just enough reason to be upset. hopefully, you can see why the cultural domination of one belief or another can be uncomfortable even if its not legally binding.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, I was going to give you kudos for going out and finding something, but then you said this:



I will drop to my knees and repent right now if you can provide a single reference to Islam from the bible.

Update Galatians 4 and you will find Islam.

 

[Liza B.]

Maybe an internet forum isn't the best representation of reality.

I know if all my interactions with Christians were based on what I've seen from some (most?) of them here over the years, I probably wouldn't want to talk to or associate with any Christians.

I'm not talking about the interactions; I'm talking about the very willingness to engage in the first place.

 

[Liza B.]

It is fair to call it out as a double standard. The only defence I can offer is that I don't live up to the idea of giving Islam and Christianity equal criticism because I don't have equal experience with them. I live in a Christian majority country rather than a Muslim majority country.

In terms of person to person relationships, we make compromises to get along with people. So if I had a Muslim friend, I'd try to remember not to serve him bacon or alcohol if he or she comes over for dinner. Maybe I could break the tension by making a joke about it or something. That's the same kind of thing you do if I was around a Christian or a Jew. If I had to say why I would do it like that, I think its because I treat religion as something that is a private activity between private individuals.

Legally, As a private individual I would have the right to tell my kids (if I had any) that Santa isn't real. But in practice that crosses a line and is taboo. Say they went to school and they tell all the other kids Santa isn't real, they will either get bullied for not getting presents or would become very unpopular with teachers and parents for telling the truth. Its pretty likely gossip will spread and I would be considered a bad father for that alone. It's not a huge leap of imagination.

For the reverse, if Christian kids went to a school with mainly atheist children, and they were bullied for believing in the virgin birth, Christian parents have just enough reason to be upset. hopefully, you can see why the cultural domination of one belief or another can be uncomfortable even if its not legally binding.

1. You're changing your posts here quite a bit, and I really do hope you're seeing your own glaring double standards. I hope this so you can be more sensitive to them. That's good for everyone, me included. For instance, your obvious abhorrence of my faith at Christmas time, vs. your reluctance to even eat bacon around a Muslim. (ETA, the reason you may have this bias is because Islam is a preferred religion for most atheists/unbelievers, even though it is much more abusive in many forms. Why? It's protected because of political correctness. So, here we are.)

2. I am an elem. teacher and have been for years and years. Kids say Santa isn't real all the time in school. Other kids brush it off and say, "yes he is!" If the first kid insists AND persists, then your kid is being a jerk, which is a bigger problem actually than your kid just not believing in Santa, right? I mean presumably you would tell your kid, "Most kids believe, so don't ruin their Christmas". So yeah, if your kid insisted on it, other parents and teachers would be upset, because your kid insists on being a jerk about it.

If you live with people, you're going to have majority beliefs. That's just life. You can be in the majority or not. The best we can do is have the freedom for everyone to believe as they like and attempt to live civilly in all cases. We can't guarantee to make every situation "comfortable" for everyone however--never trust anyone who promises this.

 

[Shadow]

1. You're changing your posts here quite a bit, and I really do hope you're seeing your own glaring double standards. I hope this so you can be more sensitive to them. That's good for everyone, me included. For instance, your obvious abhorrence of my faith at Christmas time, vs. your reluctance to even eat bacon around a Muslim. (ETA, the reason you may have this bias is because Islam is a preferred religion for most atheists/unbelievers, even though it is much more abusive in many forms. Why? It's protected because of political correctness. So, here we are.)

2. I am an elem. teacher and have been for years and years. Kids say Santa isn't real all the time in school. Other kids brush it off and say, "yes he is!" If the first kid insists AND persists, then your kid is being a jerk, which is a bigger problem actually than your kid just not believing in Santa, right? I mean presumably you would tell your kid, "Most kids believe, so don't ruin their Christmas". So yeah, if your kid insisted on it, other parents and teachers would be upset, because your kid insists on being a jerk about it.

If you live with people, you're going to have majority beliefs. That's just life. You can be in the majority or not. The best we can do is have the freedom for everyone to believe as they like and attempt to live civilly in all cases. We can't guarantee to make every situation "comfortable" for everyone however--never trust anyone who promises this.

I think that sounds fair enough.