Europeans: Do You Debate Muslims? Do You Speak Out Against Islam?

Liza B.

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The 'no-burka' law did not have to be put in effect. They put one into effect, but that doesn't mean that such was necessary. I take that as an example of religious intolerance, not necessity.

The majority of Islamic refugees Germany will assimilate.
Many of them will start living a fully secular life straight off the boat as it were. I think that you are trying to paint all refugees with the brush that only matches a small minority.

THe first bolded statement is blind faith.

The second is patently false. The fact is that most of the refugees have not assimilated. Do you need me to cite the facts?
 
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Larniavc

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Perhaps you might explore why Christianity sets you off more than Islam. Take a look at what goes on in Islamic nations, for example. Ah well, that might be a lot to handle, I don't know.
For me the threat of terrorism (being it very rare and I grew up in the late seventies where it was going on all the time) is less of an issue in real terms than science denial in schools.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Interestingly, you feel the need to defend Islam here, to tell me that there is a "secular movement" afoot. I'm standing afar off, just watching you do it. You should too. Why would you need to defend Islam? This is what I mean. Aren't you an objective bystander?

Read what I said. People leaving Islam (look up the stats for Iran as an example, particularly among the younger) is not good for Islam. So how would that be 'defending Islam'? I'm criticising your illogic. I'm also pointing out that the majority of Muslims do not match your descriptions. If that's defending Islam then I'm not worried as what I say is clearly true from my day to day interactions with Muslims. I feel it's defending the people from your religious intolerance, not defending the faith. When Muslims say such things against Christians, then I'll respond similarly. It's not Islam vs. Christianity that leads me into debate, it's truth versus bovine excrement, such as your intolerance towards Muslims.

THe first bolded statement is blind faith.

The second is patently false. The fact is that most of the refugees have not assimilated. Do you need me to cite the facts?

So say you. I've seen the evidence of my eyes for both long term and recently arrived Muslim people in the UK.

I never said that most of the refugees have assimilated. I said that they would. That's very different.
 
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Liza B.

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For me the threat of terrorism (being it very rare and I grew up in the late seventies where it was going on all the time) is less of an issue in real terms than science denial in schools.

Hmmm, really? And you feel if you had a majority of devout Muslims in school, there would be no science denial?

Huh
 
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Liza B.

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Read what I said. People leaving Islam (look up the stats for Iran as an example, particularly among the younger) is not good for Islam. So how would that be 'defending Islam'? I'm criticising your illogic. I'm also pointing out that the majority of Muslims do not match your descriptions. If that's defending Islam then I'm not worried as what I say is clearly true from my day to day interactions with Muslims. I feel it's defending the people from your religious intolerance, not defending the faith. When Muslims say such things against Christians, then I'll respond similarly. It's not Islam vs. Christianity that leads me into debate, it's truth versus bovine excrement, such as your intolerance towards Muslims.



So say you. I've seen the evidence of my eyes for both long term and recently arrived Muslim people in the UK.

I never said that most of the refugees have assimilated. I said that they would. That's very different.

My supposed "religious intolerance" trips all kinds of buttons, but I'm not religiously intolerant at all. I'm simply telling the truth--that Islam has more potential--yes, more--to impact your society at present than Christianity does. Yet I'm apparently "religiously intolerant" for pointing that out.

For example, look at how little assimilated the German refugees are, to the surprise of the German politicians. To that, you have only blind faith that they WILL assimilate. I am religiously intolerant for pointing this out.

This is how it works. You like facts and evidence--but only some facts and evidence, apparently. I am well aware how this works.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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My supposed "religious intolerance" trips all kinds of buttons, but I'm not religiously intolerant at all. I'm simply telling the truth--that Islam has more potential--yes, more--to impact your society at present than Christianity does. Yet I'm apparently "religiously intolerant" for pointing that out.

For example, look at how little assimilated the German refugees are, to the surprise of the German politicians. To that, you have only blind faith that they WILL assimilate. I am religiously intolerant for pointing this out.

This is how it works. You like facts and evidence--but only some facts and evidence, apparently. I am well aware how this works.

You are telling your version of the truth. It doesn't match what I see in real life at all. Hence, it seems to me that you are motivated by religious intolerance. Hence, I feel my comment stands.

I don't think it's blind faith to assume that they will assimilate, as I live in a place where immigrants from Muslim countries have lived for decades. I mix with these people. I see what has happened. I'm not just making it up.
 
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Liza B.

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You are telling your version of the truth. It doesn't match what I see in real life at all. Hence, it seems to me that you are motivated by religious intolerance. Hence, I feel my comment stands.

I don't think it's blind faith to assume that they will assimilate, as I live in a place where immigrants from Muslim countries have lived for decades. I mix with these people. I see what has happened. I'm not just making it up.

Okay. So, I'll say this. I go to a church with really nice and kind Christians. So I'm sure no pastors have ever abused their parishioners. I see these people, I mix with them. I know.

See how much sense that makes? Facts and evidence, remember?
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Okay. So, I'll say this. I go to a church with really nice and kind Christians. So I'm sure no pastors have ever abused their parishioners. I see these people, I mix with them. I know.

See how much sense that makes? Facts and evidence, remember?

Yes, but me mixing with people is not the only source of information.

There are statistics concerning what percentage of Christians abuse others (in various ways.) The commonly stated fear of Muslims is terrorism. We know how many terrorist events occur, and how many people are arrested for terrorism). We also know how large the Muslim population in (e.g. the UK) is. From this, we can see that terrorism is due to a very small percentage of the Muslim population, and that the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't terrorists.
 
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Liza B.

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Yes, but me mixing with people is not the only source of information.

There are statistics concerning what percentage of Christians abuse others (in various ways.) The commonly stated fear of Muslims is terrorism. We know how many terrorist events occur, and how many people are arrested for terrorism). We also know how large the Muslim population in (e.g. the UK) is. From this, we can see that terrorism is due to a very small percentage of the Muslim population, and that the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't terrorists.

Huh.

There's no abuse to be concerned about in the Muslim community?

Wow, this is so interesting.
 
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Liza B.

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Yes, but me mixing with people is not the only source of information.

There are statistics concerning what percentage of Christians abuse others (in various ways.) The commonly stated fear of Muslims is terrorism. We know how many terrorist events occur, and how many people are arrested for terrorism). We also know how large the Muslim population in (e.g. the UK) is. From this, we can see that terrorism is due to a very small percentage of the Muslim population, and that the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't terrorists.

Honor killings?

British police must investigate 'honour killings' of UK women committed abroad, MPs say

Female genital mutilation? One case every HOUR.

One female genital mutilation case reported every hour in the UK

Look, I'm not picking a bone against Islam here. I'm wondering why YOU are not, if you're an objective atheist. Why you and ALL European atheists are not.
 
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Spikey

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I am expressly asking why European atheists, agnostics and unbelievers seek to dialogue with Christians much more than they seem to seek to dialogue with Muslims. If that was not clear in my OP.

It was clear to me, I will speak with anyone about religion regardless. My point about this topic would be that to engage in conversation with someone, you need that someone to want to engage.
As I've said before I debate Muslims just as much as Christians, but the type of Muslim that is willing to engage is the moderate variety. I can honestly say that I think radical Islam is a problem in Europe and will only get worse unless better integration into our societies is promoted.
 
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Liza B.

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It was clear to me, I will speak with anyone about religion regardless. My point about this topic would be that to engage in conversation with someone, you need that someone to want to engage.
As I've said before I debate Muslims just as much as Christians, but the type of Muslim that is willing to engage is the moderate variety. I can honestly say that I think radical Islam is a problem in Europe and will only get worse unless better integration into our societies is promoted.

Thank you, this seems reasonable. As you can see in this thread, some viewpoints are not as reasonable, at least in my opinion, on the status of Christianity v. Islam in Europe.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Honor killings?

British police must investigate 'honour killings' of UK women committed abroad, MPs say

Female genital mutilation? One case every HOUR.

One female genital mutilation case reported every hour in the UK

Look, I'm not picking a bone against Islam here. I'm wondering why YOU are not, if you're an objective atheist. Why you and ALL European atheists are not.

I strongly oppose honour killings, and argue against them in places such as newspaper columns. I sign petitions. I have donated cash to campaigns against genital mutilation.

So, your claim that I and ALL European atheists are not prepared to criticise practices that a small minority of Muslims follow (but many more oppose - I donated money to a Muslim run campaign against FGM) is wrong. I know that many other atheists are the same.

What I'm not prepared to do is pick out examples of 'bad Muslims' (and there are bad people from all religious and irreligious backgrounds) and try and use that to depict all Muslims as bad. That's unreasoning prejudice.
 
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Liza B.

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I strongly oppose honour killings, and argue against them in places such as newspaper columns. I sign petitions. I have donated cash to campaigns against genital mutilation.

So, your claim that I and ALL European atheists are not prepared to criticise practices that a small minority of Muslims follow (but many more oppose - I donated money to a Muslim run campaign against FGM) is wrong. I know that many other atheists are the same.

What I'm not prepared to do is pick out examples of 'bad Muslims' (and there are bad people from all religious and irreligious backgrounds) and try and use that to depict all Muslims as bad. That's unreasoning prejudice.

You're building strawmen and burning them down. If that's what you want to do I guess you can, but you don't need my help. For example:

I never said NO European atheists criticize Islam. Instead the majority of them seem to spend the majority of their time criticizing Christianity. I think this thread alone stands as strong evidence to that. Your own words do, in fact.

You keep resorting to underhanded accusations that I'm trying to smear all Muslims with a broad brush or something. I'm not. I never said that. I would never say that; I don't even think that. But it's blatantly obvious that there are more problematic features of Islam today than there are in Christianity today. Honor Killings. FGM. Terrorism. Patriarchy.

Can you address these issues without besmirching my intolerance or character, and stick to the facts? Please understand: I am not the least bit offended. I see it as strong evidence instead that you have no argument and no defense.
 
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Shadow

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Well, there it is--you have addressed your own double standard. I mean, you are here--addressing individual Christians on the whole of their religion, "holding them to account", as it were, depending. But for all the reasons listed, you cannot or will not do that with Islam, even though people of the Islamic faith have run down your national brethren with their cars. I mean, let's be real.

Yeah. Basically. I can't hide it really. :D

On paper, I should be opposed to all religions equally. But in practice Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world (about 4 billion people and over 50% of the world's population in 2012) and so are going to get a disproportionate amount of criticism. Purely from a personal standpoint, I have no relationship with Islam to speak of. I think I tried to learn how Muslims pray and read a bit of the Qur'an to understand the experience of it. But pretty much nothing...

meanwhile, Christmas is coming. There is no escape. You will be merry or else!:eek:

To take that as an example, I don't hate Christmas, but it does feel like an obligation. the social side of it is fine as it is nice day with friends and family in the middle of winter when there is nothing else to do. I have a soft spot for Christmas pudding a brandy as well. Sausages wrapped in Bacon (or pigs in blankets as my mum calls them) are a treat once a year for Christmas Dinner. But (and I think I can say it on CF) the birth of Jesus has nothing to do with fir trees, tinsel, flying reindeer or old white men with big bushy beards breaking in to your home in the middle of the night and leaving stuff for kids. If it was a religious holiday for a people who belong to a specific religion to practice behind closed doors- that's fine.

But it's not. Christmas contaminates everything for at least an entire month and if you don't join in you're "anti-social". When Christians put their faith out in public like this, to be abused for whatever commercial purpose someone can come up with, its hard not to have something to criticise of Christianity and the way it is privileged in supposedly secular societies.

(On that note; what on earth have chocolate eggs and rabbits got to do with the Resurrection?)

I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer is not even in the bible but we still get films, music and cuddly toys for this icon but pointing that out is taboo. After all, there is a commandment about worshiping false idols. :D When the Christian faith is there in your face and has let itself be perverted beyond the wildest imagination of satan, its begging for someone to question what the heck is going on. Atheists should do it, but Christians should too. You really shouldn't let people abuse your religion like that if it really is sacred.

When you step back from this, from a Christian point of view, it is nonsensical. We get asked the same questions over and over and over and over. And over and over and over and over. We see Muslims being largely and at BEST left alone. Sometimes, defended (yes, defended). And yes, while Christians are far from perfect (believe me), we are not at present perpetrating mass terrorism on the world, orchestrated terrorism, that a small faction of Muslims are. Admittedly small, but even so, excruciatingly devastating.

And yet, from atheists, largely.....meh.

Atheists don't like addressing this. But they should.

I don't really have answers for Islamic Fundamentalism (or Terrorism for that matter). My impression is that until the 1970's the Middle East was getting more secular, but then the oil crisis increased the revenue for various governments there and they spent it on propagating aggressive interpretations of Islam. That, and the 1979 revolution when Iran finally made Islam a system of government (although again, this is just sketchy history for me).

Statistically, you are 16 times more likely to die from getting struck by lightning than in a terrorist attack (of whatever motivation). The Media report events all over the world as a 24/7 industry and they pick breaking news stories of terrorist attacks and gun violence because it makes for real-time coverage. Our perceptions of what is going on is filtered through the media. We'd like to live in a world where no-one gets hurt and nobody kills one another, so terrorism is an emotional issue. It gets TV ratings, clicks, likes, shares and votes. Its not something we should ignore, but rationally if we are 14 times more likely to die by falling in our bathtub than terrorism, it seems weird to want to undermine our civil liberties to defend ourselves against terrorism but not ban bathtubs as a death trap.

Christians do get a disproportionate amount of abuse too, for the same reason. The media spotlight focuses on the "bad stuff" individuals Christians do and then pretends that's representative of a whole religion. Its not fair. But at the same time Muslims get a disproportionate amount of blame for Terrorism when between 1980 and 2005, 94% of terrorist attacks have been by non-Muslims in the US.

you can say I'm avoiding the issue which is fair enough because I am trying to down play it, but there is a big difference between criticising Muslims and Islam as individuals by exercising free speech and producing government policies which threaten freedom of religion and target a specific group of citizens as a potential threat for having the wrong kind of ideas. In the end no-one benefits from the latter because that radicalises people and sets a precedent for threatening other people's liberties based on what they are suspected of doing- not what they have been proven to do in a court of law. That's why I'd be more inclined to minimise it and try to take the emotion out of the issue because I think the solution could be worse than the problem itself. I don't know what practical value those criticisms have outside of a person-to-person context which, as I don't know any Muslims, I'm not really able to make anyway. I'll just try to not eat a bacon sandwich in front of them or enjoy it too publicly.:D
 
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Larniavc

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Hmmm, really? And you feel if you had a majority of devout Muslims in school, there would be no science denial?

Huh
No.

You really, really like telling people what they think, doncha?
 
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Liza B.

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Yeah. Basically. I can't hide it really. :D

On paper, I should be opposed to all religions equally. But in practice Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world (about 4 billion people and over 50% of the world's population in 2012) and so are going to get a disproportionate amount of criticism. Purely from a personal standpoint, I have no relationship with Islam to speak of. I think I tried to learn how Muslims pray and read a bit of the Qur'an to understand the experience of it. But pretty much nothing...

meanwhile, Christmas is coming. There is no escape. You will be merry or else!:eek:

To take that as an example, I don't hate Christmas, but it does feel like an obligation. the social side of it is fine as it is nice day with friends and family in the middle of winter when there is nothing else to do. I have a soft spot for Christmas pudding a brandy as well. Sausages wrapped in Bacon (or pigs in blankets as my mum calls them) are a treat once a year for Christmas Dinner. But (and I think I can say it on CF) the birth of Jesus has nothing to do with fir trees, tinsel, flying reindeer or old white men with big bushy beards breaking in to your home in the middle of the night and leaving stuff for kids. If it was a religious holiday for a people who belong to a specific religion to practice behind closed doors- that's fine.

But it's not. Christmas contaminates everything for at least an entire month and if you don't join in you're "anti-social". When Christians put their faith out in public like this, to be abused for whatever commercial purpose someone can come up with, its hard not to have something to criticise of Christianity and the way it is privileged in supposedly secular societies.

(On that note; what on earth have chocolate eggs and rabbits got to do with the Resurrection?)

I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer is not even in the bible but we still get films, music and cuddly toys for this icon but pointing that out is taboo. After all, there is a commandment about worshiping false idols. :D When the Christian faith is there in your face and has let itself be perverted beyond the wildest imagination of satan, its begging for someone to question what the heck is going on. Atheists should do it, but Christians should too. You really shouldn't let people abuse your religion like that if it really is sacred.
.

So basically, you don't mind if people celebrate Christmas, and you'd even like to be in on it, but keep that pesky Jesus stuff out of your grill. That about sum it up?

Meanwhile, this Christian doesn't mind at all if you celebrate our holiday, even if you don't believe in Jesus. Maybe I'd just like the freedom to celebrate it. Seems the, um, "tolerance" for this is quickly eroding, does it not? Indeed it sure does.
 
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Liza B.

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No.

You really, really like telling people what they think, doncha?

You surely didn't make yourself clear. Read what you said. The context was Christianity vs. Islam, and you responded by saying "science denial" was your chief concern. What's the implication there?
 
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Liza B.

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I don't really have answers for Islamic Fundamentalism (or Terrorism for that matter). My impression is that until the 1970's the Middle East was getting more secular, but then the oil crisis increased the revenue for various governments there and they spent it on propagating aggressive interpretations of Islam. That, and the 1979 revolution when Iran finally made Islam a system of government (although again, this is just sketchy history for me).

Statistically, you are 16 times more likely to die from getting struck by lightning than in a terrorist attack (of whatever motivation). The Media report events all over the world as a 24/7 industry and they pick breaking news stories of terrorist attacks and gun violence because it makes for real-time coverage. Our perceptions of what is going on is filtered through the media. We'd like to live in a world where no-one gets hurt and nobody kills one another, so terrorism is an emotional issue. It gets TV ratings, clicks, likes, shares and votes. Its not something we should ignore, but rationally if we are 14 times more likely to die by falling in our bathtub than terrorism, it seems weird to want to undermine our civil liberties to defend ourselves against terrorism but not ban bathtubs as a death trap.

Christians do get a disproportionate amount of abuse too, for the same reason. The media spotlight focuses on the "bad stuff" individuals Christians do and then pretends that's representative of a whole religion. Its not fair. But at the same time Muslims get a disproportionate amount of blame for Terrorism when between 1980 and 2005, 94% of terrorist attacks have been by non-Muslims in the US.

you can say I'm avoiding the issue which is fair enough because I am trying to down play it, but there is a big difference between criticising Muslims and Islam as individuals by exercising free speech and producing government policies which threaten freedom of religion and target a specific group of citizens as a potential threat for having the wrong kind of ideas. In the end no-one benefits from the latter because that radicalises people and sets a precedent for threatening other people's liberties based on what they are suspected of doing- not what they have been proven to do in a court of law. That's why I'd be more inclined to minimise it and try to take the emotion out of the issue because I think the solution could be worse than the problem itself. I don't know what practical value those criticisms have outside of a person-to-person context which, as I don't know any Muslims, I'm not really able to make anyway. I'll just try to not eat a bacon sandwich in front of them or enjoy it too publicly.:D

I'm just really having a hard time with this second part. You're highly offended by Christmas, you don't even want Christians to properly celebrate our own holiday, it bothers you SO MUCH.

But you won't eat a bacon sandwich in front of a Muslim or "enjoy it properly".

Can you not see? Honest to goodness.
 
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Shadow

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So basically, you don't mind if people celebrate Christmas, and you'd even like to be in on it, but keep that pesky Jesus stuff out of your grill. That about sum it up?

Meanwhile, this Christian doesn't mind at all if you celebrate our holiday, even if you don't believe in Jesus. Maybe I'd just like the freedom to celebrate it. Seems the, um, "tolerance" for this is quickly eroding, does it not? Indeed it sure does.

So if I have kids and tell them Santa is not real, you're first reaction isn't that I'm guilty of child abuse?

If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, worship in your home and your church, that's fine. But its when it becomes "you must join in" that I have a problem with it.
 
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