Europeans: Do You Debate Muslims? Do You Speak Out Against Islam?

[Liza B.]

Yes I debate Muslims. Why wouldn't I. There are many Muslims on reddit's DebateReligion, on newspaper comment columns, etc.

Just visited. On the first three pages, the there are many, many posts about Christianity started by avid non-believers. The ONLY posts started about Islam are by non-believing ex-Muslims.

ON the first three pages.

It seems to make my point rather than refute it.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

And yet, in every Christian forum I've ever visited, there are very many atheist participants. From what I've seen of Muslim forums thus far, the exact opposite is true, even though Islam presents the much bigger problem in Europe.

This does not surprise me at all, in fact. But it is glaring, don't you think?

Which Muslim forums allow debate in the same way that this forum does? Most religious forums, Christian, Muslim, or others don't allow this kind of debate. As this forum does not in many of its sub-forums.

And, I don't agree that Muslims are a bigger problem in Europe than Christians. Although, that's changing as the number of Christians falls.

Just visited. On the first three pages, the there are many, many posts about Christianity started by avid non-believers. The ONLY posts started about Islam are by non-believing ex-Muslims.

ON the first three pages.

It seems to make my point rather than refute it.

I have debated Muslims on that forum many times. So, I don't think your point is proved. You have just proved that most of the discussion there is about Christianity, which it is. However, there are Muslim posters and people such as myself debate them. See, e.g., this thread. Westerners often Misunderstand How to Approach Islam • r/DebateReligion For your point to be made, there would have to be none. I never said that it happened frequently or that it was a large percentage of the posts that happen.

 

[Liza B.]

And, I don't agree that Muslims are a bigger problem in Europe than Christians.

That is a shocking statement. You can't be serious.

For your point to be made, there would have to be none. I never said that it happened frequently or that it was a large percentage of the posts that happen.

Moving the goalposts, so absolutely not. European atheists should be much, much more interested in debating Islam, given everything going on around them. Instead...well, look at reddit. They're still obsessed with a "dying religion" on their continent. Go figure. Well, I can figure it. Whether they can is anyone's guess.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

That is a shocking statement. You can't be serious.

I am serious. Muslims do not have the political power to affect policy. Christians do.

Moving the goalposts, so absolutely not. European atheists should be much, much more interested in debating Islam, given everything going on around them. Instead...well, look at reddit. They're still obsessed with a "dying religion" on their continent. Go figure. Well, I can figure it. Whether they can is anyone's guess.

I looked at my previous statement, and do not feel that I have moved the goalposts at all.

On reddit they mainly debate Christians as that is who is posting. There are proportionally fewer Muslims on reddit. My main debates with Muslims are in newspaper columns here in the UK, but I have debated Muslims on reddit.

BTW: This Europe Muslim forum allows atheists and other non-Muslims to debate. Whether or not that debate would be allowed to be as free as here, I don't know. (yet) Views on Jews, Christian and Athesits

 

[Shadow]

I personally believe atheists, agnostics and unbelievers will never be led to debate Islam in the numbers they debate Christians because it's not the Real Deal, not even if fundamental Islam is eroding their culture right from under them--which seems to be the case, actually.

It is extremely difficult to speak out against Islam because it is something I'm actually so ignorant about. With Christianity, you at least have an "illusion" of knowing stuff because it is part of your cultural environment. This is not the same as having a deeper knowledge of Christianity by which to seriously engage with believers about their faith and how it impacts their life and decisions. Many debates between Christians and Atheists consist of generalities in which they talk past each other.

With Islam, the mixture of ignorance and arrogance is multiplied. They are the "other" living "over there" with whom I have never had Muslim friends, nor spent time with Muslims to make up my mind based on personal experience (offline). Instead, there is a stream of conflicting news reports linking Muslims to violence, terrorism and religious conflicts in the Middle East and other parts of the world. Without knowing the politics of the region, it is really hard to know for sure that Islam is actually the problem, but obviously it will play a role.

On another forum I am on, my experience has been that Muslims are extremely reserved and avoid confrontation and have given me no reason to consider them individually as a threat. If anything, I wish they would stand up for themselves more. Whilst there is a great deal of discussion of "what's wrong with Islam" this is based on treating individual incidents, practices and parts of scripture as representative of the whole religion in order to condemn it. It usually comes with an assumption that Islam is inherently incapable of secularisation and opposed to the values of free societies (which again is debatable). I don't think that is fair, even if I probably do have a double standard for bigotry directed towards Christians (admittedly something I need to address). So my issue is that the quality of the debate is extremely poor and that I am not in a position to raise it.

 

[Larniavc]

My point is very simple. What religion poses the biggest threat in your nation to your safety and your way of life: any form of Islam, or Christianity?

Some parts of Islam are incredibly toxic, no argument.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

I've found an example of debating on a Muslim forum more similar to here.

The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution against the Fact of Creation

 

[Liza B.]

I am serious. Muslims do not have the political power to affect policy. Christians do.



I looked at my previous statement, and do not feel that I have moved the goalposts at all.

On reddit they mainly debate Christians as that is who is posting. There are proportionally fewer Muslims on reddit. My main debates with Muslims are in newspaper columns here in the UK, but I have debated Muslims on reddit.

BTW: This Europe Muslim forum allows atheists and other non-Muslims to debate. Whether or not that debate would be allowed to be as free as here, I don't know. (yet) Views on Jews, Christian and Athesits

On "political power", there is so little left of true Christianity in Europe it's secularism driving policy. And that won't stand up to Islam from what I can see. How's that working out for you?

Interestingly, you came here, knowing there would be Christians. Have you gone to Muslim forums, knowing there would be Muslims? How many European atheists have? Let me answer the question for you, broadly: far, far, far fewer than have gone to Christian forums. This is obvious.

 

[Liza B.]

It is extremely difficult to speak out against Islam because it is something I'm actually so ignorant about. With Christianity, you at least have an "illusion" of knowing stuff because it is part of your cultural environment. This is not the same as having a deeper knowledge of Christianity by which to seriously engage with believers about their faith and how it impacts their life and decisions. Many debates between Christians and Atheists consist of generalities in which they talk past each other.

With Islam, the mixture of ignorance and arrogance is multiplied. They are the "other" living "over there" with whom I have never had Muslim friends, nor spent time with Muslims to make up my mind based on personal experience (offline). Instead, there is a stream of conflicting news reports linking Muslims to violence, terrorism and religious conflicts in the Middle East and other parts of the world. Without knowing the politics of the region, it is really hard to know for sure that Islam is actually the problem, but obviously it will play a role.

On another forum I am on, my experience has been that Muslims are extremely reserved and avoid confrontation and have given me no reason to consider them individually as a threat. If anything, I wish they would stand up for themselves more. Whilst there is a great deal of discussion of "what's wrong with Islam" this is based on treating individual incidents, practices and parts of scripture as representative of the whole religion in order to condemn it. It usually comes with an assumption that Islam is inherently incapable of secularisation and opposed to the values of free societies (which again is debatable). I don't think that is fair, even if I probably do have a double standard for bigotry directed towards Christians (admittedly something I need to address). So my issue is that the quality of the debate is extremely poor and that I am not in a position to raise it.

Well, there it is--you have addressed your own double standard. I mean, you are here--addressing individual Christians on the whole of their religion, "holding them to account", as it were, depending. But for all the reasons listed, you cannot or will not do that with Islam, even though people of the Islamic faith have run down your national brethren with their cars. I mean, let's be real.

When you step back from this, from a Christian point of view, it is nonsensical. We get asked the same questions over and over and over and over. And over and over and over and over. We see Muslims being largely and at BEST left alone. Sometimes, defended (yes, defended). And yes, while Christians are far from perfect (believe me), we are not at present perpetrating mass terrorism on the world, orchestrated terrorism, that a small faction of Muslims are. Admittedly small, but even so, excruciatingly devastating.

And yet, from atheists, largely.....meh.

Atheists don't like addressing this. But they should.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

On "political power", there is so little left of true Christianity in Europe it's secularism driving policy. And that won't stand up to Islam from what I can see. How's that working out for you?

I live in one of the cities in England with a larger Muslim population. It's working out for me fine.

I see far more bad social effects, e.g. science-denial as well as religiously motivated laws, from Christians than from Muslims. Science-denial, in all its forms, is a far greater concern to me than the minuscule risk of, e.g., terrorism because I'm concerned not just about myself but future generations.

Note: not all Christians are involved in science-denial, nor are all Muslims involved in terrorism. It's an extreme fringe of both. However, that extreme fringe is larger for Christians than for Muslims, because of the larger population to draw from.

Interestingly, you came here, knowing there would be Christians. Have you gone to Muslim forums, knowing there would be Muslims? How many European atheists have? Let me answer the question for you, broadly: far, far, far fewer than have gone to Christian forums. This is obvious.

I go all over the place and talk to all sorts of people. I've been looking at a Muslim forum (see links before) and there are fewer posters in total and fewer Atheists. However, I'm not claiming that there are equal proportions in any way. I'm just pointing out that there are Europeans, such as myself, who do debate Muslims. I haven't joined any Muslim-only or Muslim-centric forums. I've debated Muslims on more general forums.

 

[Liza B.]

I've found an example of debating on a Muslim forum more similar to here.

The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution against the Fact of Creation

You found one entire thread with four--count them, four--unbelievers. That's not too impressive. On a board like this, you would have dozens and dozens of unbelievers. On a bigger board, more than that.

Four. A whopping four.

 

[Liza B.]

I live in one of the cities in England with a larger Muslim population. It's working out for me fine.

I see far more bad social effects, e.g. science-denial as well as religiously motivated laws, from Christians than from Muslims. Science-denial, in all its forms, is a far greater concern to me than the minuscule risk of, e.g., terrorism because I'm concerned not just about myself but future generations.

Note: not all Christians are involved in science-denial, nor are all Muslims involved in terrorism. It's an extreme fringe of both. However, that extreme fringe is larger for Christians than for Muslims, because of the larger population to draw from.



I go all over the place and talk to all sorts of people. I've been looking at a Muslim forum (see links before) and there are fewer posters in total and fewer Atheists. However, I'm not claiming that there are equal proportions in any way. I'm just pointing out that there are Europeans, such as myself, who do debate Muslims. I haven't joined any Muslim-only or Muslim-centric forums. I've debated Muslims on more general forums.

Okay, so chalk up one atheist European who is not against the Islamification of Europe. At least you're upfront about it, and how you feel about Christianity. That's more honest than a lot of atheists can be, perhaps even with themselves.

Perhaps you might explore why Christianity sets you off more than Islam. Take a look at what goes on in Islamic nations, for example. Ah well, that might be a lot to handle, I don't know.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

You found one entire thread with four--count them, four--unbelievers. That's not too impressive. On a board like this, you would have dozens and dozens of unbelievers. On a bigger board, more than that.

Four. A whopping four.

It's a much less active forum, and there are fewer members. What would you expect? Look at how infrequent posts are.

I'm addressing the claim that Atheists do not debate Muslims. I'm showing that we do. Whether the numbers or proportions are the same is neither here nor there.

I'll point out to you that people tend to be attracted to active forums where they post and get replies so that there is discussion (including debate). Even without differences in topics (e.g. identical forums even down to the name) people will go to the active forums. This forum is an order of magnitude more active than the Muslim forums I've looked at. That alone is enough to explain why more people come here. Are you suggesting other reasons? If so, please justify.

 

[Liza B.]

I live in one of the cities in England with a larger Muslim population. It's working out for me fine.

I see far more bad social effects, e.g. science-denial as well as religiously motivated laws, from Christians than from Muslims. Science-denial, in all its forms, is a far greater concern to me than the minuscule risk of, e.g., terrorism because I'm concerned not just about myself but future generations.

Note: not all Christians are involved in science-denial, nor are all Muslims involved in terrorism. It's an extreme fringe of both. However, that extreme fringe is larger for Christians than for Muslims, because of the larger population to draw from.



I go all over the place and talk to all sorts of people. I've been looking at a Muslim forum (see links before) and there are fewer posters in total and fewer Atheists. However, I'm not claiming that there are equal proportions in any way. I'm just pointing out that there are Europeans, such as myself, who do debate Muslims. I haven't joined any Muslim-only or Muslim-centric forums. I've debated Muslims on more general forums.

Also, your comment about "religiously motivated laws" is VERY curious. You see more of this in Christian nations than Islamic ones? Really?

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Okay, so chalk up one atheist European who is not against the Islamification of Europe. At least you're upfront about it, and how you feel about Christianity. That's more honest than a lot of atheists can be, perhaps even with themselves.

Perhaps you might explore why Christianity sets you off more than Islam. Take a look at what goes on in Islamic nations, for example. Ah well, that might be a lot to handle, I don't know.

Straw man: I do not believe that Europe will be Islamised.
Straw man: Christianity does not 'set me off' more than Islam.
Topic dodge: We're talking about Europe, not Islamic countries.

Also, your comment about "religiously motivated laws" is VERY curious. You see more of this in Christian nations than Islamic ones? Really?

Straw man: We're talking about Europe, not Islamic countries.

 

[Liza B.]

It's a much less active forum, and there are fewer members. What would you expect? Look at how infrequent posts are.

I'm addressing the claim that Atheists do not debate Muslims. I'm showing that we do. Whether the numbers or proportions are the same is neither here nor there.

It is absolutely here and there.

Why are atheists still perseverating on Christianity, when Islam is encroaching on their lives?

 

[Liza B.]

Straw man: I do not believe that Europe will be Islamised.
Straw man: Christianity does not 'set me off' more than Islam.
Topic dodge: We're talking about Europe, not Islamic countries.



Straw man: We're talking about Europe, not Islamic countries.

Really? Take a look at the Islamic refugees in Germany. Have they assimilated? How about in France, where a no-burka law had to be put in effect?

You might not believe it, but your beliefs are not facts, are they?

 

[AnotherAtheist]

It is absolutely here and there.

Have you seen the movements for secular societies in the middle east? People, possibly including you, tend to view Islamic societies as if they are full of 100% fully committed Muslims and that this is not changing. This is not the case.

Why are atheists still perseverating on Christianity, when Islam is encroaching on their lives?

I do not believe that atheists are 'perseverating' on Christianity. There is plenty of reason to debate the more extreme forms of Christianity, e.g. those that deny science and reason.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Really? Take a look at the Islamic refugees in Germany. Have they assimilated? How about in France, where a no-burka law had to be put in effect?

You might not believe it, but your beliefs are not facts, are they?

The 'no-burka' law did not have to be put in effect. They put one into effect, but that doesn't mean that such was necessary. I take that as an example of religious intolerance, not necessity.

The majority of Islamic refugees Germany will assimilate. Many of them will start living a fully secular life straight off the boat as it were. I think that you are trying to paint all refugees with the brush that only matches a small minority.

 

[Liza B.]

Have you seen the movements for secular societies in the middle east? People, possibly including you, tend to view Islamic societies as if they are full of 100% fully committed Muslims and that this is not changing. This is not the case.



I do not believe that atheists are 'perseverating' on Christianity. There is plenty of reason to debate the more extreme forms of Christianity, e.g. those that deny science and reason.

Interestingly, you feel the need to defend Islam here, to tell me that there is a "secular movement" afoot. I'm standing afar off, just watching you do it. You should too. Why would you need to defend Islam? This is what I mean. Aren't you an objective bystander?