Eucharist vs. Immaculate conception

[DecepticonZ]

Hi fellas,

I posted this on another thread but I reckon it'll be better if its on this forum. yea it goes like this -

Ok I've been thinkin about these stuff for a while now and so far I can't accept the Eucharist AND the Immaculate Conception doctrine at the same time because :

First, Catholic believe that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary and that Mary was sinless (immaculate conception) cuz Jesus, who is Divine, cannot enter in the womb of a sinful flesh therefore Mary must be sinless.

Second, the Eucharist (and wine) IS the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

What bothers me is that if Jesus cannot enter into a womb of a sinful women then how can he enters into our Sinful body when we eat the "Bread and drink that wine". Now IF we are sinless then why do we need to eat this flesh and drink this blood?

any comment would be cool

 

[niwde]

remember HE is the food for our soul,it also goes with his words.
he nourishes us with his own flesh,as the lamb of god,the new lamb of the passover,which is the best of all sacrifice,we do not need to kill cows or goats or sheeps or chicken or camels to abba father because jesus is the best sacrifice.
BTW talking about closer to god,no one of us is closer accept by the grace of god,
that is y in order to be clean or sinless,the catholic church advises the congregation to go for confession before mass,after that we can receive jesus without guilt in our hearts

some people who felt guity do not receive jesus,they just sit there and wait untill the distribution is completed.if they want to receive,they will make a good confession

by HIS grace we are sactified,therefore made holy(i think temporary)because we are prone of sinning,nevertheless,say a good confession and be sactified again.Since the ressurection of jesus and his ascension until his second coming is called,a time to be sactified to prepare for the test which humanity must sit

so no point predicting when is he coming,just be steadfast when he comes
NO DATES AND CALCULATION NEEDED

 

[VOW]

To Decepticon:

I can understand your confusion.

However, you need to focus on the DIRECTION of holiness. The Immaculate Conception describes the origin of the earthly body of Jesus, where He CAME from.

The Real Presence of the Eucharist is where Jesus is GOING, towards us.

Remember, Jesus while on earth gave of Himself to a lot of sinful, nasty things. He touched lepers, He made mud to heal the blind man, the sinful woman washed His feet with her tears. His purity reached out to the unclean, and made them clean.

That's the same with the Eucharist. It's purity reaches out to us, the sinful, and nourishes us in our journey to eternity.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[DecepticonZ]

ok thanks, but here's what the Catechism of the CC said about the Immaculate conception:

490--To become the mother of the Savior, Mary 'was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role". The angel Gabriel at hte moment of the annuciation salutes her as "full of grace." In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

niwde, if we or Mary have to really be sinless to physically touch Jesus then how can Jesus touch the lepers and stuff like VOW said? you get it? it still doesn't make sense to me. I don't see why Mary have to be sinless.

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as pope pius 9 proclaimed......"


It still doesn't say why Mary has to be sinless to be able to response to the announcement or that "full of grace" neccessarily mean she is sinless or that she was redeemed at the moment of her birth/conception.

Thank youse for yours replies. God blesses .

 

[Bondservant]

DecepticonZ:

I understand your frustration. Each of us are asked to accept Christ in a state of "original sin." We are not preserved from sin, yet we are able to make the same decision - to say "yes" to God's will. Mary did not need to be sinnless to make such a statement of faith. If that were the case then Christ would be asking us to make a statement of faith that is not posible for us to fulfill.

We know that Mary was sinles by the Angle's proclamation that she was "full of Grace" - to be full of Grace would indicate that no sin was present. The angle would not have made that proclamation if it were not true.


But let us consider the following:

Ephesians 1:3-14

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Paul is saying that we were choosen before all worlds to be holy and without blame. He also says that he acts according to His good pleasure. It is not a stretch in this light to accept that God saw fit to poor forth His grace upon Mary. He knew that she would say yes and thus she was "baptized" at her conception. The state that Mary was in at the moment of her "fiat" is the same that we are in at the point of our Baptism. We are filled with God's grace. We also believe that we are filled each time we go to confession and recieve the Eucharist.

Simply - we must trust that God has it all under control. He will act according to his good measure. We must always remember that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. Without Christ there is no salvation. Even Mary would not be in the Kingdom of Heaven without Christ. We Catholics far too many times portion too much of our time and energy to the Blessed Mother. We must work to make sure that Christ is the center and that all else is secondary.

To many outside it may seem that Catholics are too devoted to Mary - but what they do not realize is that they are far more devoted to Christ. Relative to their faith in Christ - their devotion to the Blessed Mother pales.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by DecepticonZ
Hi fellas,

I posted this on another thread but I reckon it'll be better if its on this forum. yea it goes like this -

Ok I've been thinkin about these stuff for a while now and so far I can't accept the Eucharist AND the Immaculate Conception doctrine at the same time because :

First, Catholic believe that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary and that Mary was sinless (immaculate conception) cuz Jesus, who is Divine, cannot enter in the womb of a sinful flesh therefore Mary must be sinless.

Second, the Eucharist (and wine) IS the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

What bothers me is that if Jesus cannot enter into a womb of a sinful women then how can he enters into our Sinful body when we eat the "Bread and drink that wine". Now IF we are sinless then why do we need to eat this flesh and drink this blood?

any comment would be cool

Hi Decepticon7

I'll share my thoughts. While I'm not Catholic, I have no problem with both doctrines. By the way, I don't know if I can fully agree with the others, but I'll explain what I believe:

First let's consider the idea of typology. Basically this doctrine comes from the idea that Adam was a 'type' of Jesus. Thus scripture says Adam was a, "figure of him that was to come' (Rom 5:14). The Greek word for 'figure' is 'tupos' which is where we get the word 'type', and thus the term 'typology'. Based on Hebrews 8:5, the earthly sanctuary was a 'type' of the heavenly one.

Many often say that David was a 'type' of Jesus. Same goes for Moses, Solomon, etc. The idea is that these men were covenant mediators that foreshadowed Christ, the ultimate covenant mediator

Now that we understand the basis for typology. Let's see if Mary fits in anywhere:

Catholics teach that Mary is the new 'ark of the covenant'. Check out Rev 11:19 and Rev 12:1. The fact is, if Mary is referred to in Rev 12:1-6, then we can conclude that the ark of the covenant is the woman in Rev 12. Supposedly the Bible didn't have verses (and I think it didn't even have chapters either), so if you read Rev 11:19 together with Rev 12:1, I think it's easy to believe that the ark of the covenant is somehow Mary.

Sounds somewhat like a stretch doesn't it? But check out the follwoing link and be sure to read the post by patmosman:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18234

As for the Eucharist, I'll have to get into that another time. I have to get going.

God bless!

-Jason