Eucharist required for salvation?

[dignitized]

hoon: I have relatives in just about every faith there is on the planet. ( is it any wonder we have banned the discussion of religion at family events to keep the peace) It is through family who are orthodox that I have attended services with that I partook of their communion. As far as catholic, while I was in Ireland to teach, I stayed with a RCC Franciscan community there they knew I was not RC, but invited me to partake none the less. The school I taught at there was a RC boarding school (loved the experience) and since I was there over the holidays I was expected to attend services with them. The Father who was my contact there KNEW I was not RC, yet he compelled my participation none the less. I was even pretty much forced to teach a catechists class while there! Its like when I opened my mouth the words were coming out in Greek or something . . . . It was an interesting challenge to teach religion to catholic youth with out offering offence or teaching anything contrary to what the RCC teaches. I did however get to offer my testimony which I know planted seeds for the kingdom. At least one of the students expressed to me an interest in taking up the vowed life and becoming a priest because of what I had said. I was greatly humbled and still am that God used me in that way. . . . anyway I'm rambling. Just so no one takes offence - I do not, WILL NOT proselytize. We do not believe in it. God will lead them to join the order if that is where he wants them.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
From statements like this, I do not believe you do.

For some reason, people just don't understand that it's possible to understand something, and not agree with it. I do not COMPLETELY understand your theology or mine. I don't think it's possible. When someone tells me I don't understand their theology, I agree. Neither do they, if they DO understand comletely the study of God and all He has established, there's a problem. I understand Catholic theology to the extent that lots of Catholics here do. I believe it's possible to understand, but not agree with it.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
For some reason, people just don't understand that it's possible to understand something, and not agree with it.

While this is true, it's not the case here. cleon is clearly not understanding the Catholic teaching -- he's just taking one part of the Catechism and then guessing (incorrectly) what the implication of the statement says.

The Catholic church does *not* teach that people who do not take Catholic communion go to Hell, or that Catholic communion is necessary for salvation. This is not a matter of opinion or interpretation the way it sometimes is with Biblical passages -- the Catechism is clear and not open to personal interpretation. So if someone claims that the Catholic church teaches otherwise, they are wrong -- it's not a matter of them understanding but not agreeing.

-Chris

 

[isshinwhat]

For some reason, people just don't understand that it's possible to understand something, and not agree with it. I do not COMPLETELY understand your theology or mine. I don't think it's possible. When someone tells me I don't understand their theology, I agree. Neither do they, if they DO understand comletely the study of God and all He has established, there's a problem. I understand Catholic theology to the extent that lots of Catholics here do. I believe it's possible to understand, but not agree with it.

With all due respect, your claim that the Catholic belief in the Eucharist means that either all Protestants are necessarily ****** by their lack of participation in Communion, or there is a contradiction in our theology, shows that you do not understand our belief.

I am certain there are many other points that you do understand, yet do not agree with. That was not my claim, nor was it my claim that I understood everything about my faith. My only claim was, and is, that you are mistaken in this one instance.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[cleon]

While this is true, it's not the case here. cleon is clearly not understanding the Catholic teaching -- he's just taking one part of the Catechism and then guessing (incorrectly) what the implication of the statement says.

The Catholic church does *not* teach that people who do not take Catholic communion go to Hell, or that Catholic communion is necessary for salvation. This is not a matter of opinion or interpretation the way it sometimes is with Biblical passages -- the Catechism is clear and not open to personal interpretation. So if someone claims that the Catholic church teaches otherwise, they are wrong -- it's not a matter of them understanding but not agreeing.

Kern, you are ignorant of your own religion, for if words have meaning and the Roman Catholic Church teaches in all their authoritative books (Catechisms, Vatican II, etc) that "The Sacraments are Necessary for Salvation", then it is no point in saying this if this is not true.

 

[dignitized]

oh fun now. Thanks alot cleon you have goten everyone all hostile in here now. Sheesh

 

[kern]

Originally posted by cleon
Kern, you are ignorant of your own religion,

Oh, I see. Thanks for your help.

for if words have meaning and the Roman Catholic Church teaches in all their authoritative books (Catechisms, Vatican II, etc) that "The Sacraments are Necessary for Salvation", then it is no point in saying this if this is not true.

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

"for believers" does not mean "for believers in Jesus" or "for believers in God", it means Catholics -- i.e. "for believers in the Catholic church". If you do not believe in the sacraments, then they are not necessary for salvation.

-Chris

 

[cleon]

Kern, that was a direct quote from the catechism of the ROman Catholic Church paragraph 1129

 

[kern]

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

"for believers" does not mean "for believers in Jesus" or "for believers in God", it means Catholics -- i.e. "for believers in the Catholic church". If you do not believe in the sacraments, then they are not necessary for salvation.

-Chris

 

[KC Catholic]

Cleon -

I am warning you publicly to tone down the comments. You do not need to call someone "ignorant". Additionally, this is NOT a debate forum. You want to debate - take it to Protestant/Catholic/Jewish Meeting place.

You are close to being suspended and I ask that you pray before you post.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by cleon
Kern, that was a direct quote from the catechism of the ROman Catholic Church paragraph 1129

You're using isogesis, cleon.

 

[cleon]

Kern, you are interjecting something that is not written there, it just says for believers. either you are a believer or you are not.

 

[dignitized]

cleon: don't be obtuse. the RC catachism is written for RC believers NOT EVERYONE. sheesh

 

[VOW]

To Cleon:

It's the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so it would necessarily follow the dialogue is directed towards CATHOLICS.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[dignitized]

silly vow! weren't you aware that the Roman Catholic Catachism is beholden upon all of the world catholic, prot, Jew, muslim everyone?? (whats the code for rolling eyes?)

 

[kern]

Originally posted by cleon
Kern, you are interjecting something that is not written there, it just says for believers. either you are a believer or you are not.

Nonsense, you are making up your own interpretation of the Catechism.

At worst you can claim that the Catechism is poorly written or ambiguous. But just because you read the Catechism in a particular way does not mean that's what the teaching of the Church is. It just means you aren't reading it correctly. Like I said, the Catechism is not open to personal interpretation.

-Chris

 

[dignitized]

Kern" neither are the scriptures open to personal interpretation - but don't try to tell cleon that!!

 

[cleon]

The Bible tells us to " be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1Peter 3:15) and "by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Titus 1:9) but seeing you are not allowed to do this here, as I was privately informed by KC Catholic with threat of being banned, I shall dust my feet off.

But remember this:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5)

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:4-5)

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Philippians 3:9)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:8-9)

I pray that you will find out the true GOSPEL, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Romans 1:16)

For those of you who are seeking the truth Read 1Corinthians 15:1-4.........................

 

[VOW]

To Cleon:

Try 1 Timothy 3:15


Peace,
~VOW

 

[kern]

Originally posted by cleon
but seeing you are not allowed to do this here, as I was privately informed by KC Catholic with threat of being banned, I shall dust my feet off.

You have more latitude in the Meeting Place forum. Why don't you try there? You still need to dial back on your "Catholics are wrong!" attitude, but you can ask questions if you're curious about things, and even engage in some discussion/debate. Just not in OBOB!

-Chris