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Eucharist required for salvation?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Hoonbaba, Nov 23, 2002.

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  1. cleon

    cleon New Member

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    Where in the Bible does it say that CHrists sacrifice would be perpetuated on an altar?

    How can you make a past historical event present?

    Does CHrist come down from heaven upon Roman Catholic altars around the world everyday?

    THe Bible says that Christ is seated upon the right hand of the Father waitin till His enemies be made His footstool.

    The Bible tells us that all believers are temples for the habitation of the Spirit of CHrist. But vessels made with hands (wafers) he  dwells not in.

    "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things" Acts 17:24-25
     
  2. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    Isn't it about time that some one got banned??
     
  3. cleon

    cleon New Member

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    Sad Max, I ask a few questions and you want to ban me right away??? Why are you so hurt?
     
  4. dignitized

    dignitized Well-Known Member

    +724
    its not your questions so much as your attitude, your arrogance, and where you have chosen to post these questions. You have no interest it is apparent of any type of conversation you just wanna preach at us because you have been brainwashed into believing Catholics are not Christians. And here I am, non-catholic stuck defending them because you refuse to educate yourself. I suggest you either start talking WITH people instead of AT them, or at the very least change your local or you will find yourself banned.

    This is a FELLOWSHIP forum here at Christian forums, there are OTHER places to post these questions.

    http://www.christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=80 THIS is the proper place for the discussions of the type you want.

    BTW< I'm not hurt. I'm appalled.
     
  5. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic


    Heb 8:1-3:

    The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

    Naturally Jesus is offering something.&nbsp; What is that something?&nbsp; Jesus said he would be a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek (ps 110:4, Heb 5:6, Heb 5:10, Heb 6:20,&nbsp;Heb 7:17), NOT the order of Aaron, the levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11), which constantly slaughtered lambs. Big difference =)

    Melchizedek's ministry was bread and wine (Gen 14:18).&nbsp; And since Jesus is in the order of Melchizedek, Jesus is&nbsp;thus forever offering bread and wine based on Heb 8:3 and Heb 5:6.

    Furthermore, Rev 5:6 reveals:&nbsp; "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain".&nbsp; Catholics teach that the Lamb is not being slain over again, but rather this indicates that Jesus is offering himself&nbsp;forever based on Heb 8:3 and Heb 5:6.&nbsp;



    Perhaps the same way revelation depicts Jesus being born in Rev 12:5, and how the Lamb was supposedly slain since the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).&nbsp; Which to me means, "I have no idea' LOL! :)


    I shared earlier that Christ continually offers himself.&nbsp; So there's one answer.&nbsp; Plus, Paul teaches that people died when taking the Eucharist in an unworthy manner (1 Cor 11:27), since they did not discern the lord's body (1 Cor 11:29).&nbsp; So I'd say yes.&nbsp; God of course is also&nbsp;everywhere.


    It's also significant to see that the presence of God came down in 2 Chr 5:14 and Ezekiel 10:4


    Christ has all authority (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:21), so he is ruler of both heaven and earth (Matt 28:18).&nbsp; The body of Christ is not ONLY on earth but in heaven (Eph 3:15).&nbsp; Plus, in some mysterious way, we are in the heavenly Jerusalem among our heavenly brethren (Heb 12:22-28)

    Jesus said very clearly, "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink" (John 6:55).&nbsp; I take Jesus at his word. :) And wafers are not temples.&nbsp;:) I don't know any Catholic who claims that a wafer is a temple.

    Just because Catholics teach that the presence of God is in the Eucharist, doesn't mean&nbsp;a wafer is&nbsp;a temple.&nbsp; The presence of God is also among brethren when they gather together (Matt 18:20).

    Regardless, Jesus commands us to partake in Communion (Luke 22:19, cf. 1 Cor 11:24-25)

    And ideally, all Christians should devote themselves to&nbsp;the Eucharist, just like the early church&nbsp;(Acts 2:42, 1 Cor 10:16), which was assumed to be weekly (Acts 20:7). :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  6. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    immolated?? I've never heard that before. Are you sure you know what that word means?

    Irrelevant. Catholicism does not practice nor claim to practice sola scriptura.

    I can't, but God can. He's God.

    Apparently so. He doesn't have to "come down" (implying that he leaves heaven); he can be present in all the eucharist in the world and in heaven at the same time. He's Jesus.

    -Chris
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Br. Max,

    You're not Catholic??? :scratch:

    -Jason
     
  8. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Well there was one baptist! (Matt 3:1) =)

    LOL!

    -Jason
     
  9. cleon

    cleon New Member

    59
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    hoonbaba: Malchisedec never offered bread and wine as a sacrifice, neither did Christ. Christ offered his body and soul once, then by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. He offered one sacrifice for sins forever and sat down on the right hand of God. There is now no more offering for sin.
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Definitely not the work of redemption that's for sure.&nbsp; Jesus wasn't raised yet!! (1 Cor 15:12-14)&nbsp;

    Anyway, according to Catholics,&nbsp;it was the end of the&nbsp;passover - the fourth cup:

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm

    In anycase, redemption would come at the time of the end (Heb 9:28, 1 Pet 1:5, 1 Tim 6:19, Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7, Luke 18:30, Jude 1:21, Rom 2:7, 1 John 2:25, Col 3:3-4, Luke 21:28,&nbsp;Eph 4:30, Titus 2:13-14, Rev 12:10)

    God bless!

    -Jason

    &nbsp;
     
  11. cleon

    cleon New Member

    59
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    It seems very strange to me that we do not find even one example of a Catholic Mass being conducted or even described! If CHrist established the mass and if it is central to the Christian faith as Rome claims, why is there not one example of it in the book of Acts and the NT epistles?
     
  12. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    Ahhh, "hate Catholicism, love the Catholic", eh? Well I've got news for you. The Catholic IS Catholicism; Catholicism IS the Catholic. I would be very careful with the way you criticize what you think is Catholicism. Furthermore, such posts as these are not allowed here on Christian Forums. I suggest you go visit "Rupture Ready" if you want to freely denigrate any part of Catholicism.
     
  13. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
     
  14. cleon

    cleon New Member

    59
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    Hoonba, we weren't redeemed with the ressurection we were redeemed with his shed blood. THe life of the flesh is in the Blood. and the payment for sin is death. Christ paid my debts if full on the cross. He redeemed me from the curse of the Law:

    Galatians 3:13&nbsp; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

    1 Peter 1:18&nbsp; Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
     
  15. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    The book of Acts does depicts a weekly Eucharist (Acts 20:7)

    I&nbsp;would recommend you read the entire book of Revelation, alongside with Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper".&nbsp; The entire book explains how Mass is depicted throughout Revelation.&nbsp;

    Did you notice something about Rev 1:10?&nbsp; Lord's Day = Sunday??&nbsp; Possibly :) There's also trumpets, incense, prayers, 'new songs' sung onto God (Rev 14:3, Rev 5:9, sounds Charismatic doesn't it?).&nbsp; There's also elders (as in presbyters), people bowing, people falling prostrate (doesn't this also sound charismatic too?).&nbsp; There's also an altar (Rev 8:3-4), books opened, chalices, the gloria (Rev 15:3-4), the alleluia (Rev 19:1), holy holy holy (Rev 4:8).&nbsp; And of course the Eucharist (Rev 19:9, 17)

    The list goes on and on.

    Or, for a more indepth study, read&nbsp;David chilton's commentary, "Days of Vengeance".&nbsp; He's an Anglican, but his commentary depicts how the entire book of Revelation is a depiction of worship/Mass.&nbsp; And it's a great commentary too =)

    -Jason
     
  16. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic


    But our faith is useless unless Jesus was raised to live (1 Cor 15:14), which means 'it is finished' wasn't referring to the work of redemption.

    god bless!

    -Jason
     
  17. cleon

    cleon New Member

    59
    +0
    Hoonba: True Believers are now redeemed.

    Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    However, the redemption of the body will have to await ressurection day.
     
  18. cleon

    cleon New Member

    59
    +0
    Nice talking to you all, but my beloved is home now, I must go. Till another day.
     
  19. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Believers are saved (Eph 2:8), being saved (1 Cor 1:18), and they will be saved (Mark 13:13).

    Heb 9:23-28 in comparison to Lev 16 makes it very clear that redemption in the OT&nbsp;came, 'when the high priest' came out of the holy place.&nbsp; The high priest could slaughter the lamb, go into the holy of holies and if the sacrifice was accepted, then the high priest would live and would 'return'.&nbsp;&nbsp;This was when the people knew that&nbsp;their&nbsp;sins were dealt with, when the sacrifice was accepted.&nbsp; If it wasn't accepted, then the people would likely pull the high priest out with a rope.

    So redemption was a reality, yet not a full reality, this is 'already/not yet'.&nbsp; That explains salvation at the time of the end (1 Pet 1:5, Rev 12:10)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  20. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Wow......I just realized I said that....

    Forgive me if I sounded a bit....hostile.&nbsp; Sorry about that.

    -Jason
     
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