Eucharist required for salvation?

[Preachers12]

Originally posted by Br. Max
 

 

The fact that you hold catholics to be OUTSIDE of Christianity precludes any kind of open and productive discussion.

Br. Max, Peace be with you.

You misunderstand.  I wholeheartedly support Catholicism!  I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you did from my post.  My wife tells me I don't always articulate myself clearly enough... is she right!!!?   Perhaps you missed my first post (I believe it is #9 or 10 on this thread).

God Bless and Stay Safe

 

 

[dignitized]

preachers: I just read your previous post.

I suggest that what you might have intended to say in the post I quoted then was:

between Catholics and PROTESTANTS and not Catholics and Christians.

We must be careful in a context such as this to mean what we say and say what we mean We must also be ready to amend our statements when we have misstated our beliefs.

 

[isshinwhat]

I will however defend the Catholic church as should any person defend another when wrongly attacked.

That is love. Love is rooted in Christ and respect. I would like to post a portion of a letter found in a compilation by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.

Helmut H. James, Count von Moltke,
German Lutheran Statesman, executed for opposition to Hitler.

--Our Victory Over the World
Tegel, January 10, 1945

Dear Heart:
First I must tell you that quite evidently the last twenty-four hours of one's life are no different from any others. I I had always imagined that it would come as a shock to say to oneself: "now the sun is setting for the last time for you, now the hour hand will make only two more revolutions before twelve, now you are going to bed for the last time." Nothing of the sort. Perhaps I am a little cracked. For I cannot deny that I am in really high spirits. I only pray to God in heaven to sustain me in this mood, for surely it is easier for the flesh to die in this state. How merciful the Lord has been to me! Even at the risk of sounding hysterical-I am so full of thanks that there is actually no room for anything else. He has guided me so firmly and clearly during these two days. The whole courtroom might have roared, like Herr Freisler [president of the People's Court] himself, and all the walls might have rocked-it would have made no difference to me. it was just was as is written in Isaiah 43:2: "When though passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when though walkest through the fire, though shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." That is to say: upon your soul. When I was called up for my last words, I was in such a frame of mind that I nearly said, "I have only one thing to add to my defense. Take my goods, my honor, my child and wife; the body they may kill; God's truth abideth still, his kingdom is forever." But that would have only made it harder for the others; therefore I said only, "I do not intend to say anything, Herr President."

Therefore I can say only one thing, dear heart. May God be as merciful to you as to me.... I should be saying farewell to you-I can't do it. I should be mourning and regretting the drabness of your everyday life-I can't do it. I should indeed be thinking of the burdens that will now fall upon you-I can't do it. I can say only one thing to you: if you attain to a feeling of supreme security-if the Lord gives you that which, had it not been for this period in our lives and it's conclusion, you would never have had, then I am leaving you a treasure that cannot be confiscated, a treasure compared to which even my life is of small account.

The decisive pronouncement in my trial was: "Count Moltke, Christianity, and we National Soicialists have one thing in common, and one thing only: we claim the whole man." Did he realize what he was saying?...

[God]... permitted me to experience, to an unheard-of depth, the anguish of parting and the fear of death and the terror of hell-so that this to is over and done with. Then he endowed me with faith, hope, and love, all this in a plentitude truly lavish.... And then your husband was selected to be attacked and condemned, as a Protestant, above all for his friendship with Catholics. And thus he stood before Freisler not as a Protestant, not as a landed proprietor, not as a nobleman, not as a Prussian, not as a German-all that was explicitly eliminated... But as a Christian and nothing else.

 

[jukesk9]

**Mod Hat On**

Cleon, refer to the PM I sent you earlier regarding the Celibacy thread you started. Same rules apply to this thread. 

**Mod Hat Off**

 

[cleon]

jukesk9: are you catholic?

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Preachers12

I quoted the above only because I thought to respond to some of the issues addressed by Cleon.  I personally don't see them as attacking or seeking converts,

Perhaps you should read his posts again -- his attitude is something that we've all seen before. "I used to be Catholic" is a good sign that the person has no clue what they're talking about, and often it's the former Catholics who are most adamant about getting others to leave the church.

rather they present a wonderful opportunity for an open dialog on what is a fundamental difference between Catholicism and Christianity. 

I don't mind having discussions. But cleon is clearly not interested in discussing anything, just criticizing.

As I understand Chris, though, perhaps this is the inappropriate forum for such a discussion.  

Yes. The OBOB forum is primarily intended for two things:

1. A place for Catholics to discuss issues that deal with the Catholic church without "interference". For instance, if I want to ask a question about Confession, but do not want people to start arguing about whether or not Confession is Biblical (etc.), then this is the right place for me to post my question.

2. A place for people to ask Catholics questions. Debate should be restricted to the Meeting Place, but this thread (originally) was fine because Hoonbaba was merely asking a question about the Eucharist and salvation. If he had then followed up with passages refuting the answers (which he did not), then it would have become a thread more appropriate for the Meeting Place.

Being new, I certainly don't want to start off by breaking rules. With that said, will this discussion be permitted here?

The discussion is permitted on the forum, but it's not really intended to be discussed on OBOB. With that said, most of the time if you are polite (i.e. do not accuse us of apostasy or heresy) then nobody will mind.

-Chris

 

[cleon]

Kern: do you believe the mass (Eucharist) is necessary for salvation?

 

[dignitized]

I think the idea is to keep the debates in the theology forums. This forum is for fellowship not debate - correct?? **looks for a monitor**

 

[cleon]

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">"[Christ] needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" Hebrews 9:27

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp;

 

[cleon]

Max, did Paul not reason out of the Scriptures for those doctrines He wished to defend?

 

[cleon]

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

 

[dignitized]

cleon you just want to get banned don't ya. BTW, you never asnwered what church you belong to. You posted an answer that is true, but you failed to answer the QUESTION.

 

[cleon]

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[dignitized]

cleon you just want to get banned don't ya.

BTW, you never asnwered what church you belong to. You posted an answer that is true, but you failed to answer the QUESTION.

 

[cleon]

Max, I told you what church I belong to, you will not recieve it. But I will repeat myself. It is the Church which is His Body Colossians 1:24. I belong to Christ. Christ is my life. I do not get involve in denominationalism.

 

[dignitized]

cleon: I see that you have something to be ashamed of since you refuse to name the church of which you fellowship

 

[cleon]

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;&nbsp;For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26)

 

[jukesk9]

Cleon, you were given TWO non-warnings about the rules of this forum, one via PM and one posted in this thread.&nbsp; You have ignored them.&nbsp; Continuing to try and show Catholics they're wrong in this forum will&nbsp;result in warnings and eventually a banning.&nbsp; Please, abide by our rules or do not post here.&nbsp; Thank you.

 

[Preachers12]

Originally posted by cleon
Max, I cannot speak for Luther, Knox, Calvin, they are all dead and gone. All I know that when Jesus said "This IS my body" He was standing there in His body. Just like when He said "The seed IS the word of God", He was speaking symbolically. It does not matter what church councils have taught, or men may think to be true but "What Saith the Scriptures". If that governs not our life we are doomed to deception. This is the first thing that Jesus said when the disciples asked Him, What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world" ..... "Watch and see that thou be not decieved"

Cleon, Peace be with you.

Though you don’t cite it, I believe you are quoting from Matthew 26:26 : "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’" The earlier discussion on this thread revolved around John 6:35-58.

As I understand you, you believe that Jesus could not physically become the bread if He was physically there WITH the bread. From that, you conclude that Jesus must have been speaking symbolically, as He had done on other occasions (one of which you allude to).

This argument I can understand, if not taken in context with John 6:35-58. That was where Jesus, after the feeding of the multitudes, and in response to questions from the Jews, prefaced what would happen at the Last Supper. While Jesus sometimes spoke in parables and metaphorically, He also very often spoke bluntly. He did not go throughout His life always speaking symbolically or in riddles. In the specific instance of John 6:35-58, He clarified what He was saying three times. He could not have been any clearer. When trying to understand what was happening in Matthew 26:26, you must go back to John 6. They are each part of a beautiful completeness. If you tie those in with the Old Testament…WOW!

You’ll also note that in John 6:66, Jesus was apparently so clear, so specific in what he said in John 6:35-58, that he scared off many of his disciples! Had He been speaking symbolically, would He not have cleared it up so as not to lose disciples? I suppose that is an answer we’ll never know. Suffice it to say, though, that Jesus was speaking very plainly here.

Aside from that, just looking at Matthew 26:26 on it’s own, we know that Jesus was physically present. He was also Spiritually present in the bread in a sacramental way, which is how He remains present in the Eucharist today. That Jesus could be present physically and spiritually at the same time is a "mystery." That means that it is something that we cannot, as humans, comprehend completely. An example of a "mystery" that you may subscribe to yourself is that God is present everywhere at all times (omnipresent). Jesus IS God and, as God, was (and is) not limited by humanly bonds. If you can accept that God created the world and is present in it everywhere at all times, is it really so hard to believe that He could not turn simple bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ? And do it over and over again for all time?

The second part of your post seemed to indicate that this belief in the transubstantiation was created by men and had no basis in scripture (though basis was pointed out above). This could lead to an interesting discussion on sola scriptura, but I think that we would be exceeding the parameters of this particular thread to do so here.

I offer up these thoughts not to be attacking or demeaning to anyone's beliefs.&nbsp; They are offered to present a Catholic's point of view, based on scripture, Tradition, sociology, and history, for a Catholic practice... transubstantiation.

God Bless and Stay Safe

 

[cleon]

Max, I am not ashamed of Christ, He is the saviour of the body. My fellowship is first and foremost with my Lord and with those who are willing to meet with Him outside the camp. Wherever two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the misdst.