Hazelelponi

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Hello and God bless you. I believe in reformed doctrine, but there are a couple things which confuse me when people discuss it on the forum.

To be honest - I'm unsure this is something I am able to grasp. So be as plain spoken as possible, dumb layman here. :wave:

@Jonaitis and @Albion (both reformed) had a discussion that made my eyes cross, concerning real presence versus spiritual presence in the Eucharist.

Now, I understand that there are people who are certain their religious leaders perform magic and then afterward they believe they literally cannibalise our Lord - that's a definite no go for me.

And I understand believing that the Eucharist is symbolic. (I'm rather in this camp )

but I don't understand spiritual presence - since the Holy Spirit is always with us, how is it different in the Eucharist?

Is there a way you can explain this concept to me? ..
 

Radagast

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@Jonaitis and @Albion (both reformed) had a discussion that made my eyes cross, concerning real presence versus spiritual presence in the Eucharist.

The traditional Reformed explanation is that Christ's presence is real, not merely symbolic; but that it is spiritual, not what the Catholics say. To quote the Belgic Confession of 1561:

We believe and confess, that our Savior Jesus Christ did ordain and institute the sacrament of the holy supper, to nourish and support those whom he hath already regenerated, and incorporated into his family, which is his Church. Now those, who are regenerated, have in them a two-fold life, the one corporal and temporal, which they have from the first birth, and is common to all men: the other spiritual and heavenly, which is given them in their second birth, which is effected by the word of the gospel, in the communion of the body of Christ; and this life is not common, but is peculiar to God's elect. In like manner God hath given us, for the support of the bodily and earthly life, earthly and common bread, which is subservient thereto, and is common to all men, even as life itself. But for the support of the spiritual and heavenly life, which believers have, he hath sent a living bread, which descended from heaven, namely, Jesus Christ, who nourishes and strengthens the spiritual life of believers, when they eat him, that is to say, when they apply and receive him by faith in the spirit. Christ, that he might represent unto us this spiritual and heavenly bread, hath instituted an earthly and visible bread, as a sacrament of his body, and wine as a sacrament of his blood, to testify by them unto us, that, as certainly as we receive and hold this sacrament in our hands, and eat and drink the same with our mouths, by which our life is afterwards nourished, we also do as certainly receive by faith (which is the hand and mouth of our soul) the true body and blood of Christ our only Savior in our souls, for the support of our spiritual life. Now, as it is certain and beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ hath not enjoined to us the use of his sacraments in vain, so he works in us all that he represents to us by these holy signs, though the manner surpasses our understanding, and cannot be comprehended by us, as the operations of the Holy Ghost are hidden and incomprehensible. In the meantime we err not, when we say, that what is eaten and drunk by us is the proper and natural body, and the proper blood of Christ. But the manner of our partaking of the same, is not by the mouth, but by the spirit through faith. Thus then, though Christ always sits at the right hand of his Father in the heavens, yet doth he not therefore cease to make us partakers of himself by faith. This feast is a spiritual table, at which Christ communicates himself with all his benefits to us, and gives us there to enjoy both himself, and the merits of his suffering and death, nourishing, strengthening and comforting our poor comfortless souls by the eating of his flesh, quickening and refreshing them by the drinking of his blood. Further, though the sacraments are connected with the thing signified, nevertheless both are not received by all men: the ungodly indeed receives the sacrament to his condemnation, but he doth not receive the truth of the sacrament. As Judas, and Simon the sorcerer, both indeed received the sacrament, but not Christ, who was signified by it, of whom believers only are made partakers. Lastly, we receive this holy sacrament in the assembly of the people of God, with humility and reverence, keeping up amongst us a holy remembrance of the death of Christ our Savior, with thanksgiving: making there confession of our faith, and of the Christian religion. Therefore no one ought to come to this table without having previously rightly examined himself; lest by eating of this bread and drinking of this cup, he eat and drink judgment to himself. In a word, we are excited by the use of this holy sacrament, to a fervent love towards God and our neighbor. Therefore we reject all mixtures and damnable inventions, which men have added unto, and blended with the sacraments, as profanations of them: and affirm that we ought to rest satisfied with the ordinance which Christ and his apostles have taught us, and that we must speak of them in the same manner as they have spoken.
 
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Radagast

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To quote the Belgic Confession of 1561:

We believe and confess, that our Savior Jesus Christ did ordain and institute the sacrament of the holy supper, to nourish and support those whom he hath already regenerated, and incorporated into his family, which is his Church. Now those, who are regenerated, have in them a two-fold life, the one corporal and temporal, which they have from the first birth, and is common to all men: the other spiritual and heavenly, which is given them in their second birth, which is effected by the word of the gospel, in the communion of the body of Christ; and this life is not common, but is peculiar to God's elect. In like manner God hath given us, for the support of the bodily and earthly life, earthly and common bread, which is subservient thereto, and is common to all men, even as life itself. But for the support of the spiritual and heavenly life, which believers have, he hath sent a living bread, which descended from heaven, namely, Jesus Christ, who nourishes and strengthens the spiritual life of believers, when they eat him, that is to say, when they apply and receive him by faith in the spirit. Christ, that he might represent unto us this spiritual and heavenly bread, hath instituted an earthly and visible bread, as a sacrament of his body, and wine as a sacrament of his blood, to testify by them unto us, that, as certainly as we receive and hold this sacrament in our hands, and eat and drink the same with our mouths, by which our life is afterwards nourished, we also do as certainly receive by faith (which is the hand and mouth of our soul) the true body and blood of Christ our only Savior in our souls, for the support of our spiritual life. Now, as it is certain and beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ hath not enjoined to us the use of his sacraments in vain, so he works in us all that he represents to us by these holy signs, though the manner surpasses our understanding, and cannot be comprehended by us, as the operations of the Holy Ghost are hidden and incomprehensible. In the meantime we err not, when we say, that what is eaten and drunk by us is the proper and natural body, and the proper blood of Christ. But the manner of our partaking of the same, is not by the mouth, but by the spirit through faith. Thus then, though Christ always sits at the right hand of his Father in the heavens, yet doth he not therefore cease to make us partakers of himself by faith. This feast is a spiritual table, at which Christ communicates himself with all his benefits to us, and gives us there to enjoy both himself, and the merits of his suffering and death, nourishing, strengthening and comforting our poor comfortless souls by the eating of his flesh, quickening and refreshing them by the drinking of his blood. Further, though the sacraments are connected with the thing signified, nevertheless both are not received by all men: the ungodly indeed receives the sacrament to his condemnation, but he doth not receive the truth of the sacrament. As Judas, and Simon the sorcerer, both indeed received the sacrament, but not Christ, who was signified by it, of whom believers only are made partakers. Lastly, we receive this holy sacrament in the assembly of the people of God, with humility and reverence, keeping up amongst us a holy remembrance of the death of Christ our Savior, with thanksgiving: making there confession of our faith, and of the Christian religion. Therefore no one ought to come to this table without having previously rightly examined himself; lest by eating of this bread and drinking of this cup, he eat and drink judgment to himself. In a word, we are excited by the use of this holy sacrament, to a fervent love towards God and our neighbor. Therefore we reject all mixtures and damnable inventions, which men have added unto, and blended with the sacraments, as profanations of them: and affirm that we ought to rest satisfied with the ordinance which Christ and his apostles have taught us, and that we must speak of them in the same manner as they have spoken.

To summarise all that, Christ is spiritually with us during the Eucharist in a special way, and feeds us spiritually in a special way that "surpasses our understanding, and cannot be comprehended by us."
 
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Hazelelponi

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To summarise all that, Christ is spiritually with us during the Eucharist in a special way, and feeds us spiritually in a special way that "surpasses our understanding, and cannot be comprehended by us."

See when it's summarized it makes sense to me.. like what you said it makes sense

But in the elongated explanation (that you posted) it seems to be saying that the vessel by which we receive the Holy Spirit is the Eucharist.

And the later doesn't make sense because I've had the Holy Spirit since I was saved. He's always with me.. Or don't people believe in that?

This is what is confusing to me.
 
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Radagast

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But in the elongated explanation (that you posted) it seems to be saying that the vessel by which we receive the Holy Spirit is the Eucharist.

The traditional Reformed belief is that we grow spiritually (we are spiritually fed) both from the Word and from the Sacraments (Baptism and Eucharist).

To quote the Belgic Confession again: "We believe, that our gracious God, on account of our weakness and infirmities hath ordained the sacraments for us, thereby to seal unto us his promises, and to be pledges of the good will and grace of God toward us, and also to nourish and strengthen our faith; which he hath joined to the Word of the gospel, the better to present to our senses, both that which he signifies to us by his Word, and that which he works inwardly in our hearts, thereby assuring and confirming in us the salvation which he imparts to us. For they are visible signs and seals of an inward and invisible thing, by means whereof God worketh in us by the power of the Holy Ghost."

And the later doesn't make sense because I've had the Holy Spirit since I was saved. The more time I spend in prayer and communion with God (via written word as well as prayer) the more sensitive I am to His leading, and of course the reverse is also true the less I give mind to our Lord the less I am sensitive to His leading..

But He's always with me.. Or don't people believe in that?

This is all 100% true. But the idea is that participating in Eucharist has a spiritual benefit on top of the written word and prayer.

God has given us this sacrament because we are real physical people with bodies, and because we are members of a community, not merely isolated individuals. It's a form of spiritual benefit tailored to who we are.

Now a big part of the Eucharist is reflecting on what Jesus did on the cross, but that's not all that there is to it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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The traditional Reformed belief is that we grow spiritually (we are spiritually fed) from the Word and from the Sacraments (Baptism and Eucharist).

To quote the Belgic Confession again: "We believe, that our gracious God, on account of our weakness and infirmities hath ordained the sacraments for us, thereby to seal unto us his promises, and to be pledges of the good will and grace of God toward us, and also to nourish and strengthen our faith; which he hath joined to the Word of the gospel, the better to present to our senses, both that which he signifies to us by his Word, and that which he works inwardly in our hearts, thereby assuring and confirming in us the salvation which he imparts to us. For they are visible signs and seals of an inward and invisible thing, by means whereof God worketh in us by the power of the Holy Ghost."



This is all 100% true. But the idea is that participating in Eucharist has a spiritual benefit on top of the written word and prayer.

God has given us this sacrament because we are real physical people with bodies, and because we are members of a community, not merely isolated individuals. It's a form of spiritual benefit tailored to who we are.

Now a big part of the eucharist is reflecting on what Jesus did on the cross, but that's not all that there is to it.

okay.. that makes sense.

if something comes to mind later on I'll ask you.. but I think I have it.
 
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JM

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I believe in the real presence but not sure what that means. Calvin makes the most sense to me right now.

The Battle for the Table

John Calvin insisted, as did the Anglicans, on the true presence of Christ, but he also insisted that the presence of Christ is through His divine nature. His human nature is no longer present with us. It is in heaven at the right hand of God. We still are able to commune with the human nature of Christ by means of our communion with the divine nature, which does indeed remain united to the human nature. But that human nature remains localized in heaven. In the debate, Calvin fought a war on two fronts. On the one hand, in dealing with the Lutherans and the Roman Catholics, he refused to use the term substance with respect to the presence of Jesus in the sacrament. But over against those disciples of Zwingli, who wanted to reduce the sacrament to a mere symbol and memorial, Calvin insisted upon the term substance. Here the term substance had two different nuances. With respect to Luther and Rome, the term substance meant “corporeal” or “physical.” With respect to the debate with Zwingli, Calvin used the term substance as a synonym for “real” or “true.”
Unfortunately the church I've been attending celebrates the Supper only once a month so I will often visit a conservative Anglican parish for Communion.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

A 'visible sign of the thing signified:"

ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee that thou dost graciously feed us, in these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; assuring us thereby of thy favour and goodness towards us; and that we are living members of his mystical body, which is the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy everlasting kingdom.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, ourselves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee. And although we are unworthy, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be all honour and glory, world without end. Amen. Book of Common Prayer

From the London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689:

“…for the perpetual remembrance, and shewing forth the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him…” 30.1

“…Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed…

“…spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers…” 30.7​

A Baptist Catechism:

Q. 95. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption?

A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption are His ordinances, especially the Word, Baptism, the Lord’s Supper and Prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation. (Rom. 10:17; James 1:18; 1 Cor. 3:5; Acts 14:1; 2:41,42)

Q. 98. How do Baptism and the Lord’s Supper become effectual means of salvation?

A. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of His Spirit in them that by faith receive them. (1 Peter 3:21; 1 Cor. 3:6,7; 1 Cor. 12:13)

Q. 107. What is the Lord’s Supper?

A. The Lord’s Supper is a holy ordinance, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine, according to Christ’s appointment, His death is showed forth, and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporeal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of His body and blood, with all His benefits, to their spiritual nourishment, and growth in grace. (1 Cor. 11:23-26; 10:16)

Q. 108. What is required to the worthy receiving of the Lord’s Supper?

A. It is required of them that would worthily (that is, suitably) partake of the Lord’s Supper, that they examine themselves, of their knowledge to discern the Lord’s body; of their faith to feed upon Him; of their repentance, love, and new obedience: lest, coming unworthily, they eat and drink judgment to themselves. (1 Cor. 11:27-31; 1 Cor. 5:8; 2 Cor. 13:5)​

May the Lord bless you as you feed, spiritually, upon Him.

jm
 
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Hazelelponi

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Jonaitis

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I think I read somewhere in his Institutes that the idea of Christ's local presence in the Lord's supper would affirm Monophysitism, in suggesting that Christ's human nature now in heaven can manifest divine qualities of omnipresence here with us on earth. I'll have to find where I read that, but it is interesting point.
 
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JM

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The biggest problem now is finding a Reformed or Baptist Church that holds to the confessional view. Often the Lord's Supper is practiced once a month and with little reverence.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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twin1954

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The Lord’s Supper is a symbol of the the Lord’s body and blood given for sinners. When we eat and drink, wine not grape juice, we symbolize our faith in Christ. He becomes a part of us just as food does. He nurishes us as we feed on Him. There is no “special” grace imparted. It is simply a picture of what faith in Christ is.

When we examine ourselves it isn’t to see if we have any unconfessed sin or have we been “obedient” but simply whether we are true believers in Christ. We examine ourselves as sinners who must have the Savior. To eat and drink unworthily is to do so without faith in Christ alone.

The Table is to be taken without the “spiritual solemness” that most try to do. There is nothing super spiritual about it. We are commanded to do it often because in it, as it should always be, our focus is Christ Jesus the Lord.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Luke 22:20 = 1 Corinthians 11:24

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you"

In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me”​

Do what?

Pour out the wine??

Because Christ won't drink of it again until the Kingdom comes???
 
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royal priest

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The biggest problem now is finding a Reformed or Baptist Church that holds to the confessional view. Often the Lord's Supper is practiced once a month and with little reverence.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Many churches argue that weekly observance of the LS would cheapen its value in the minds of the partakers. But what is that saying about how we value the other elements of worship that we do practice on a weekly basis?
 
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JM

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Many churches argue that weekly observance of the LS would cheapen its value in the minds of the partakers. But what is that saying about how we value the other elements of worship that we do practice on a weekly basis?
Excellent point. Some Reformed churches partake every 3 months! This is a reaction to the abuses surrounding the weekly practice.
 
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