EU/PC - Electric Universe/Plasma Cosmology theory.

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Michael

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The first serious attempt to scientifically and mathematically describe the universe from the perspective of EU/PC theory was done by Kristian Birkeland in 1908 in his landmark publication: The Norwegian Aurora Polaris Expedition 1902–1903 (158 MB). Birkeland began his quest for knowledge of astronomy based on his observations of aurora. The beauty of the aurora piqued his curiosity and sent him on a lifelong quest to understand their origin and their cause. Birkeland and his team risked life and limb to collect data from some of the harshest environments on planet Earth, so that he could compare his in-situ magnetic field measurements during solar storms to information and data that he and his team gathered from their empirical experiments in the lab.

A few of the correct predictions based on empirical simulations that Birkeland and his team made from what they learned from their lab experiments were the presence of both types of high speed solar wind particles flowing from the sun, cathode rays/electron beams flowing from the sun, polar jets, coronal loops, field aligned Birkeland currents, including those found in planetary aurora, and electrical discharges in the solar atmosphere. All of those predictions were later verified by satellites in space, but this didn't start to happen until the late 1960's, long after Birkeland's death. Unfortunately most of his work was overlooked at the time, and most of it continues to be overlooked to this day.

A quick two minute video overview of his basic solar model and his explanation of planetary aurora can be found here:


The following image compares a white light image from one of Birkeland's terella experiments (black & white) to a Yohkoh x-ray satellite image of the sun (orange). By adding a magnetic field inside the solar terella, Birkeland was able to concentrate the electrical discharges into two distinct bands in the northern and southern hemisphere much as we observe during the active phase of the solar cycle.

birkelandyohkohmini.jpg


One of the more interesting concepts of plasma cosmology theory that Birkeland predicted over a hundred years ago from his experiments is that most of the mass of the universe was likely to be found in the charged particles and gases which are found *between* the stars rather than inside the stars themselves. Only in the past 5 years have we become aware of two different massive plasma and gas halos that surround our own galaxy which contain more mass than all of the stars in our galaxy combined. That's another of Birkeland's highly successful *cosmology* predictions that is directly related to electric universe theory.

If you download the 158 megabyte PDF of his book, you'll find *tons* of mathematical models listed in the back. Anyone who erroneously tries to suggest that "there is no math to support EU/PC theory" has obviously never read any of the hundreds of published papers or numerous books on this topic. There has been *tons* of math to support EU/PC theory for over 100 years.

Keep in mind at the time that Birkeland and his team were trying to describe the electric universe, the universe was thought to be an "island universe" consisting of only a single Milky Way galaxy. It wasn't until nine years after Birkeland's death that Edwin Hubble demonstrated in 1926 that some of the blurry objects that he was seeing in his telescope were actually entire distant galaxies in and of themselves. Birkeland's "electric universe" was therefore a bit "limited" by today's standards, but later authors like the Nobel Prize winning author Hannes Alfven and his student Anthony Peratt have also written very extensive books and papers on the topic of electric universe/plasma cosmology theory from a more modern perspective.

"Cosmic Plasma" by Hannes Alfven is considered by most people in the EU/PC community to be "the" book that defines the Electric Universe/Plasma cosmology model. Some of the first few chapter of his book are available online, and most of it's content comes from his various published papers. A short overview of his basic cosmology model can be found in his paper: Cosmology In The Plasma Universe. Alfven published over 100 papers on this topic which can be found on the ADS server. I have also collected quite a few of Alfven's published papers in a PDF format which you can find here.

By far however, the most extensive book from the perspective of mathematics that has ever been published on the topic of Plasma cosmology is Physics of the Plasma Universe written by Alfven's student, Anthony Peratt who works at Los Alamos. It includes *numerous* mathematical models and explanations of the various topics related to EU/PC theory. Peratt even built computer models based on Alfven's basic ideas and published the results of those models in various papers and in his book. Many of Peratt's published papers can also be found on the ADS server.

Another popular EU/PC author is Eric Lerner. His book "The Big Bang Never Happened" is an excellent introduction to not only the topic of EU/PC theory, but also to the topic of cosmology in general. If you're interested in learning about cosmology theories (plural) from scratch, and a quick comparison of cosmology theories, his book is an excellent place to begin. Lerner has also published a number of papers on cosmology theory. My favorite is a recent paper which compares a static universe model to an expansion model.

I'll continue to post additional resources to this thread as I get time, but I'll stop here for the moment since it's getting late and I need to grab a cup of coffee. :)

Ok Selfsim, you asked me to start this thread and I did. Now let's hear you answer my question. Which of the three books by Birkeland, Alfven and Peratt have you actually read for yourself? Any of them? All of them? Have you read Lerner's book?
 
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SelfSim

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[Staff edit].

Never mind that EU and PC theory have been completely severed by Peratt years ago, on his own website, for starters .. Edit: Peratt's site is here his disclaimer reads: "The Plasma Universe and Plasma Cosmology have no ties to the anti-science blogsites of the holoscience 'electric universe' ".

[Staff edit].
 
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Strathos

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A viewpoint that is not supported by the people who actually study the universe.

How I know “plasma cosmology” is wrong | Galactic Interactions
Plasma Cosmology debunked - plasma universe theory wrong
Plasma cosmology - Wikipedia
Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked
Electric Universe - RationalWiki
https://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/

This is just another movement like anti-vaxxers or the flat earth bunch or moon landing conspiracy theorists. It's not worth any attention.

Is it really fair to compare this to flat eartherism, which can be disproven by anyone with a bit of work?
 
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Michael

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A viewpoint that is not supported by the people who actually study the universe.

How I know “plasma cosmology” is wrong | Galactic Interactions
Plasma Cosmology debunked - plasma universe theory wrong
Plasma cosmology - Wikipedia
Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked
Electric Universe - RationalWiki
https://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/

This is just another movement like anti-vaxxers or the flat earth bunch or moon landing conspiracy theorists. It's not worth any attention.

I'm afraid that the people who supposedly "study the universe" are literally stuck in the "dark ages" of astronomy. They are forced to rely upon placeholder terms for human ignorance to describe 95 percent of our universe, and they can provide no explanation for any of their metaphysical constructs. For instance, not a single astronomer today can name so much as a single source of 'dark energy', explain where it comes from, or explain how it supposedly retains near constant density over multiple exponential increases in volume. They've spent *billions* of dollars/euros looking for "dark matter" in the lab, yet they've found exactly zero empirical evidence that any form of exotic matter exists in nature. In fact all the 'popular' mathematical models of dark matter were completely falsified at LHC, whereas the standard particle physics model has passed every conceivable test to date. There's never been a more expensive waste of money in physics in fact.

While astronomers today tend to be well indoctrinated into their own beliefs and constructs (not that it's helped them find DE or DM mind you), they tend to know little or nothing about alternative cosmology theories, and what they think they know about EU/PC theory is usually wrong.

I think what I'll do for you is pick various links, one by one, and demonstrate their lack of understanding for you. Suffice to say, most of the *misinformation* about EU/PC theory comes from folks using anonymous handles or from folks that probably do know better but apparently don't. The typically use terms like "crank" and "crackpot" and terms that have no place in an honest scientific conversation. It's also rather ironic since most of them are relying upon at *least* four different metaphysical construct to describe the the universe, and they often have no real "explanations" to offer in the first place since most of the LCDM model is based upon placeholder terms from human ignorance, not actually empirical *knowledge*.

I'll go through your links today, one by one and pick out the misinformation. I'll also try to clarify the differences between the various EU/PC solar models that have been proposed by different individuals and point out some of the ideas found under the EU/PC umbrella that even I disagree with.

Unlike the LCMD model, the EU/PC model is somewhat more diverse. We tend to allow for a range of potential options to explain an event rather than insisting it has to be explained a specific way. It's also a bit confusing at the level of solar physics since there have been at least three different solar models proposed by different individuals over the past 100 years. They can't all be correct so it's quite clear that there are parts of EU/PC theory that must be "weeded out" over time.

I think it's completely inappropriate to compare EU/PC theory to "antivaxers" or moon landing conspiracies. These are simply "cheesy" ways to try to smear our community for daring to look for *empirical* alternatives to the *metaphysical* constructs found in the LCDM model.

[Staff edit].

I'll go through your links today as I get time and point out the obvious errors.
 
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Michael

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Since you started with Rob Knop, we'll take a look at his blog first:

How I know “plasma cosmology” is wrong | Galactic Interactions

Non-cosmological redshifts are a crank theory in astronomy that a scary fringe element keeps whinging on about.

This type of statement is simply bizarre. Edwin Hubble proposed two possible solutions to the observation of photon redshift in space. He entertained the idea of expansion and he also entertained the concept of "tired light"/inelastic scatting which was first proposed by Fritz Zwicky, a very respected astrophysicist of his day. While tired light proposals have perhaps been a "minority" position, they've never been a "crank" or "scary fringe" concept. It should be noted that *many* types of inelastic scattering have been documented in the lab, and photons routinely lose some of their moment to the medium through which they travel. It's "scary" to me that folks like Rob have to use terms like "crank" or crackpot to attempt to begin their arguments. It shows a sense of desperation IMO, particularly since inelastic scattering has been *lab demonstrated* (like most l EU/PC concepts) whereas "space expansion" and "dark energy" and inflation have not. Rob's explanation for photon redshift involve three different forms of metaphysical constructs (inflation, space expansion, dark energy), whereas inelastic scattering is a *well documented* and *lab demonstrated* way that photons lose momentum.

In contrast, the whole plasma cosmology paradigm was never reasonable, and is certainly not reasonable now.

It would be interesting to see Rob explain how he defines 'reasonable' considering the fact that inelastic scattering is a *known and demonstrated* cause of photon redshift in the lab, whereas inflation, space expansion and dark energy are all purely hypothetical constructs and processes, none of which enjoy a shred of empirical support in the lab. Rob's explanation literally requires *three* different metaphysical constructs to replace *known and demonstrated* causes of photon redshift in the lab. That doesn't seem at all "reasonable' to me.

The basic idea of plasma cosmology is that electromagnetic forces in the bulk motions of astronomical objects are far more important than mainstream astronomy admits.

This statement is only half true. PC proponents believe that *electric fields* plays a far more important role in astronomy than the mainstream admits. The mainstream tends to acknowledge the *magnetic field* aspect of what's happening in space while virtually (not completely) ignoring the *electric* field and it's importance to astrophysics. For instance, Birkeland's solar model begins with an *electric* field that exists between the cathode surface of the sun, and the heliosphere. In his model is that *electric* field that drives the solar wind, generates coronal loops, creates aurora, etc. In the mainstream model, they downplay the role of the electric field (or deny it exists) and try to explain everything via the magnetic field.

So, the assertion you sometimes see that astronomers don't train their grad students about electromagnetic forces and that astronomers don't take into account those forces is an assertion that's wildly wrong.

It's also wildly wrong that we assert that claim in the first place. From our perspective however, they do however tend to "train" their students to downplay the importance of the electric field and put undo emphasis on the magnetic field.

However, plasma cosmology also asserts that electromagnetic forces between plasma flowing through the solar system and through the Universe and the magnetic fields of objects (or even the objects themselves, as they'll often decide, for instance, that comets must have a substantial electric charge) make significant contributions to the motion of objects that mainstream astronomy is able to explain entirely through gravity.

Well, I'm going to admit that Rob is right on this point, and I tend to agree with his position as it relates to comets specifically. There are "electric comet" proponents within the EU/PC community, but I'm not one of them. I think the mainstream's explanation of comets is "reasonably" on target and gravity explains their movements pretty well. I'm more concerned about the mainstreams introduction of "dark energy" when they want to try to negate the forces of gravity, and their use of exotic forms of matter when ordinary matter would work equally well to explain the rotation patterns of galaxies.

How do you know whether to believe my assertion in the first paragraph above that plasma cosmology is all bunk, or a much more elegant assertion that people like me are just part of the entrenched mainstream refusing to listen to somebody with a new idea that challenges the underpinning of our whole careers? The problem is that when actual real astronomers such as myself are confronted with plasma cosmology, we have a hard time doing anything other than shaking our heads sadly, because it's so amazingly wrong, so patently silly if you know anything, that it's difficult even to know how to begin saying that it's wrong.

First of all, nobody is claiming that there is some "grand conspiracy" which includes *all* astronomers. Sure, EU/PC theory challenges the underpinnings of the LCDM model, but most astronomers adopt a "live and let live" approach to competition. Only perhaps a dozen or so astronomers, out of around 8000 astrophysicists in the world attempt to publicly critique EU/PC theory, and most of them make at least some attempt to be fair. Rob doesn't seem to be one of them however as his use of the term 'crank' and his attempt to personalize the debate demonstrates. So let's get beyond his rhetoric and look at his two basic arguments:

Here's the thing, though. Even if the "standard" explanation has a flaw, when you introduce an alternate explanation to address that flaw, your alternate explanation must explain everything the standard explanation already explains.

There's a problem here already with Rob's first argument because the LCDM model doesn't actually "explain" what dark matter is, or explain dark energy. In fact they are nothing more than placeholder terms for human ignorance and they make up a full 95 percent of the LCDM model. Anything that moves us beyond a 5 percent "explanation" should therefore suffice as a valid alternative to a *non explanation*!

In fact however there is now *ample* evidence that the mainstream has *never* been able to accurately calculate the amount of ordinary matter in a given galaxy based strictly on light.

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Lambda-CDM - EU/PC Theory - Confirmation Bias

Not only did the mainstream underestimate the number of stars in various galaxies by a factor of between 3 and 20 times, they underestimated the number of stars shared between galaxies in clusters, and they only found the bulk of the mass of our own galaxy in last five years in the form of ordinary hot plasma and gas halos which surround every galaxy in the universe. There's never been a need to introduce exotic forms of matter because it's very obvious now that we've been consistently underestimating the mass of galaxies all along!

It's also possible to eliminate the need for exotic concepts like "dark energy", "space expansion" and inflation, simply by *including* (rather than ignoring) the effects of ordinary inelastic scattering in a dusty plasma medium. These are valid *empirical* ways of explaining the very same observation of photon redshift which don't require us to introduce metaphysical concepts into the discussion.

EU/PC theory does a better job of explain the "dark" components of LCMD simply by using ordinary plasma, and ordinary plasma redshift as alternatives to exotic (metaphysical) forms of matter and energy.

Given that we're able to explain all the orbits in the solar system with a straightforward application of gravity, where's the problem that plasma cosmology is supposed to solve? Likewise, with the whole Universe, we explain a wide range of observations with Big Bang cosmology. If we are to even bother spending ten minutes thinking about plasma cosmology, we must first know: does it even show promise to explain everything, and what does it offer that the Big Bang does not?

First of all the big bang model does *not* explain what "dark matter" actually is, it's just a placeholder term for human ignorance. Nobody in the EU/PC community is worried about explaining events in the *solar system*, we're interested in explaining away the need for exotic forms of matter and energy on a galaxy and cosmological scale! Rob's "shtick" is a false flag premise to begin with. Furthermore we're *explaining* dark matter simply by acknowledging all the baryonic mass calculation errors that exist in the mainstream models and we've collected the evidence to support it as you will see in that link I provided.

In other words, plasma cosmology is a waste of time.

It's absolutely *not* a waste of time since LCDM doesn't actually "explain" what dark matter is made of, whereas we simply acknowledge those gas and plasma halos that have been found in just the last five years (one year in the case of that gas halo), whereas the mainstream keeps burying their heads in the sand and pretending that those observations of halos of ordinary mass don't matter. Mainstream denial is a waste of time, not plasma cosmology theory. Rob's first argument is pure nonsense and it's based on complete denial of the fact that dark matter and dark energy are not "explained", they are simply placeholder terms for human ignorance while they look for *real explanations* which are already offered in PC/EU theory.

The problem is, if you're a mainstream astronomer like me, and you try to figure out exactly what it is that their model here is doing, often you can't. What you've got, really, is a lot of nice sounding technical jargon that ultimately doesn't make clear what it is that they're really saying. In short, where's the math? If you're going to make quantitative predictions about where things are going, we need to know the equations that go along with your nice words.

His second point seems to be directly related to the fact that Rob has apparently never sat down and actually read any of the three books I listed in the OP, or he would know perfectly well where he might find the math. Apparently he's too lazy, or too confused to find the math, but it certainly exists, most notably in Peratt's work and Alfven's work. If he can't find the math, he's not looking very hard.

I'll be fair here however. LCDM is typically taught in a classroom setting and everything is "spoon fed" to them, including the relevant references, and the relevant maths. EU/PC theory enjoys no such classroom support, so it's up to the individuals to sift through the materials, hunt them down, and weed out the weird ideas that also exist under the EU/PC umbrella. EU/PC theory isn't as "easy" to learn because it's not taught in a classroom setting - *yet*. That will change over time however. Until then, it's really up to the individual to do the research and apparently Rob wasn't willing to do that. If the math he was looking for wasn't found on a website, he wasn't interested in investing in his education and he didn't find what he was looking for. That doesn't mean that the maths do not exist, it just means that Rob was lazy.

OK.... First of all, the mainstream does acknowledge electricity in space. But, never mind that.

Actually, not it does not. Birkeland's model *predicts* that both ions and electrons stream away from the sun, but the cathode rays (called "strahl" electrons by the mainstream) carry the bulk of the current between his cathode surface and the heliosphere (Birkeland called it 'space'). Furthermore the cosmic rays are mostly *positively* charged and move *toward* the sun. The mainstream notices these things, but they ignore the implication in terms of the *electric field* that's involved in the process. Whereas a hot corona pops right out of Birkeland's model and it's heat source is the electrical current and the electric field of the sun, the mainstream *still* can't explain why the sun's corona is hotter than it's surface. Birkeland not only *explained* it, he simulated a full sphere hot corona in his lab over a century ago!

The mainstream is in fact totally out to lunch as it relates to the role of the electric fields in space.

Here's the problem though. The result that the magnetic attraction between two parallel currents drops off as 1/r only applies to infinitely long parallel currents. Practically speaking, that means that the length of each current (the length of the wire carrying the current, for example) must be a substantially bigger than the distance between the two currents. In other words, for this 1/r law to be relevant in the Solar System, there would have to be some current associated with (say) the Earth, perpendicular to the plane of the Solar System, whose length is at least several times the distance between the Earth and the Sun. The Sun would likewise have to have a current that long associated with it.

And that's just batty.

Oh, but it's not "batty". In fact field aligned currents called 'magnetic ropes' have been *demonstrated by NASA* to connect the sun to the Earth and connect the sun to Saturn too!

Massive Magnetic Ropes Found to Connect Earth to the Sun
Magnetic Rope observed for the first time between Saturn and the Sun

That magnetic rope between sun and Saturn is in fact many times longer than the distance between the sun and the Earth, and we're not even worried about that issue *inside* the solar system in the first place! Rob's denial process is "batty", that's what's "batty".

The problem is, their justifications fall apart under even a little bit of scrutiny. Please, please, pay no attention to plasma cosmology. It's a persistent but extremely off-base crackpottery that plagues astronomy.

The only "crackpottery" going on is Rob's denial process. He can't find the math because he evidently didn't know where to look. He's in pure denial of plasma and gas halos we've found in the past five years. He's also in pure denial of the current flow associated with "magnetic ropes" which carry current directly from the sun to various planets in our own solar system. He's apparently oblivious to the implications of having high speed electrons in the form of "strahl" flowing away from the sun, and high speed (mostly) positively charged particles flowing into the sun in form of cosmic rays.

Rob is pretty much a textbook example of a *lazy* astronomer who's not really actually looking for answers, but rather looking to "take down" a model that he doesn't even begin to understand.

Let's see how the next few links work out, shall we?
 
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Michael

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http://www.everythingselectric.com/plasma-cosmology-debunked/

Apparently "electrome" doesn't have an argument of his own, just a bunch of quotes from others randomly gathered from around the internet which he claims "debunk" EU/PC theory. Let's take a quick look at a couple of them:

Plasma Cosmology is NOT the Electric Universe theory. And the EU theory is not the Plasma Cosmology theory.

But if the whole Plasma Cosmology theory is completely wrong then are lots of parts of the Electric Universe theory (EU theory) also wrong by default?

He's making a blanket assertion that that "EU" and "PC" are not the same. Why? Admittedly there are *multiple* solar models that have been proposed by *multiple* individuals, and down right "wacky" idea proposed by some individuals within the EU/PC community, but I don't personally try to distinguish between them since their all based on the concept that electric fields play an important role in spacetime. Admittedly there is apparently some "bad blood" between Wal Thornhill and Anthony Peratt, but Thornhill has never written a full cosmology theory to start with, so there isn't a separate "electric universe" theory related to theory related to Thornhill in the first place. If there is an "electric universe" theory, it's the limited one that Birkeland proposed when he believed we lived in an island (one galaxy) universe. Thornhill prefers a different solar model than Peratt, and I too reject Thornill's model (and Peratt's model I should add), but I wouldn't attributed a whole cosmology theory to Thornhill to start with. Alfven and Peratt are the only authors to put together an entire cosmology theory, including the math, so there isn't a separate "electric universe" theory to start with IMO. I think Peratt distinguishes between his beliefs and Thornhill's beliefs by calling his beliefs "plasma cosmology" and calling Thornhill's ideas "Electric Universe", which frankly gives Thornhill too much credit where it's not really due. Everyone in the "EU" community is still reliant upon Alfven's work and Peratt's work in terms of "cosmology" theories.

Plasma Cosmology debunked articles
This is a starter list of arguments against the Plasma Cosmology. There are not that many listed to start with as there does not seem to be many on the internet.

If you know or find any other articles or evidence (or especially images that show this) debunking it then please mention them in the comments at the bottom of the page or send a message.

This statement reveals the author bias. He doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in any *positive* information about EU/PC models, just *negative* feedback. He's not 'studying' the model, he's looking to 'debunk' it in the laziest of possible ways. :) Oy Vey. This is like a creationist soliciting (begging for) negative material on the topic of evolutionary theory.

It would appear that most of the quotes he's collected aren't actually even arguments against the model, just a rough explanation of Alfven's work.

But ok, what are the worst criticisms he's found?

In 1965, Hannes Alfvén proposed a "plasma cosmology" theory of the universe based in part on scaling observations of astrophysical plasmas from in situ space physics experiments and plasmas from terrestrial laboratories to cosmological scales orders-of-magnitude greater. Utilizing matter-antimatter symmetry as a starting point, Alfvén suggested that the fact that since most of the local universe was composed of matter and not antimatter there may be large bubbles of matter and antimatter that would globally balance to equality (in what he termed an "ambiplasma"). The difficulties with this model were apparent almost immediately. Matter-antimatter annihilation results in the production of high energy photons which were not observed. While it was possible that the local "matter-dominated" cell was simply larger than the observable universe, this proposition did not lend itself to observational tests.

Well, that is a possibility of course, but that's not all that he suggested. Alfven also suggested that galaxies could contain both matter and antimatter stars, some galaxies could be mostly made of matter, while some galaxies are mostly made of antimatter. Furthermore the emissions patterns that he was looking for from ambiplasma (matter/antimatter annihilation) *locally* are actually observed in our own galaxy and are typically attributed to "dark matter annihilation". Matter and antimatter are *known* to exist even here on Earth even occurring from electrical discharges in the Earth's atmosphere, whereas dark matter has been a total dud in the lab.

Alfven's basic model however isn't even dependent upon antimatter, just his 'bang' theory is dependent upon it. If his concepts are simply applied to a preexisting infinite and eternal universe, ambiplasma isn't even necessary or relevant to start with.

Unlike most crank alternative models, this one was actually proposed by a trio of real theoretical physicists. But they did so in the 1960s, before much of modern astronomy was known. For example, we now know that some of the observations the originators of plasma cosmology were trying to explain are the result of things like dark matter, dark energy, and inflation, concepts that were not yet proven back in those days. But even in those early days, plasma cosmology failed as a theory in too many other ways, and was never taken very seriously. Today, with our much more complete knowledge, it's completely unnecessary. It violates too much of what we know, and it fails to explain anything that's not already explained by proven phenomena. Student Questions: Plasma Cosmology (reply on skeptoid)

This quote simply *assumes* that concepts like inflation and exotic forms of "dark matter" are "proven", when in fact inflation isn't "proven' and "dark matter" has been the biggest physics money pit in the history of physics! It's only only not been "proven", it's mathematical models have been *disproved* over and over and over again in the lab. The basic argument seems to be "since we *know* that our theory is right, all others must be wrong". That's a pathetic argument IMO.

Plasma cosmology is a non-standard cosmology whose central postulate is that the dynamics of ionized gases and plasmas play important, if not dominant, roles in the physics of the universe beyond the Solar System. This is contrary to the general consensus by cosmologists and astrophysicists which strongly supports that astronomical bodies and structures in the universe are mostly influenced by gravity, Einstein's theory of general relativity, and quantum mechanics. These can be used to explain the origin, structure and evolution of the universe on cosmic scales. As of 2015, the vast majority of researchers openly reject plasma cosmology because it does not match modern observations of astrophysical phenomena or accepted cosmological theory.
Plasma cosmology (wikipedia)
Ah, another WIKI quote based on the same "our model must be right" attitude, and it's an appeal to popularity fallacy to boot. :) Bzzzt.

The last quote seems to be from Rob which I've already covered and nobody was trying to claim EU/PC only applies to applications *inside the solar system* as Rob seems to be implying.

That was pretty much a bust of a website IMO. Nothing much of substance I'm afraid. It does however demonstrate the similarities between creationists and EU/PC haters. The author wasn't really interested in learning about EU/PC theory on his own, he was looking only to "debunk" the idea and was blatantly soliciting material that fit with his own preconceived beliefs. That's an almost universal trait among EU/PC haters in my experience. The don't even try to learn about plasma cosmology, they just want to "debunk" it in some way.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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The earth is both flat and an ellipsoid.

There is no topological difference between a "circle" of the earth, and the "sphere" of the earth. They are homotopic - differing by stereographic mappings.

The earth is a 1-sphere manifold, covered by a 2-sphere manifold hemispherical dome of low-density electro-chemical layers.


Now, what of this alleged conspiracy that the universe is electric? Why is this controversial? QTFL/QCD takes it a step further, and stipulates that the propgators interact with the universal fields nonlocally. The math works elegantly, and it solves many issues with our understanding of fundamental forces and phenomena (e.g. bilocation/spooky action at a distance.) It's just all interesting.
 
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Michael

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Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

FYI, I've already posted my comments to that blog under my full name (Michael Mozina) and I started a full thread on that particular hit piece on Thunderbolts which you can find here:

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Multi-point EU critique: can these points be addressed?

Suffice to say the whole neutrino argument in a ruse. About the only thing that it demonstrates is that Jeurgen's original solar model was probably wrong because it only predicts one type of neutrino (like the standard model did back then) and fewer of them, about a 1/3rd since that was the observed number of electron neutrinos at the time he wrote his original proposal. Juergen's anode solar model however has since been "updated" by authors like Donald Scott who have addressed those issues and who continue to promote Jeurgen's solar model, albeit a revised and updated version of it. I'm not even particularly fond of Jeurgen's anode solar model personally, but that website doesn't even eliminate an updated Jeurgen's model. The author of the blog was dreaming alright. :)

The other interesting development in solar physics since that blog was first written is that the mainstream's predictions about convection were later blown out of the water in 2012 by SDO. The mainstream predictions about the speed of convection were shown to be wrong by two whole orders of magnitude in fact:

Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

If anything, that particular argument the author of that blog only strengthens the EU/PC model. How ironic. :)

That blog also demonstrates that most "critiques" of EU/PC theory come from anonymous sources, and they are typically based on relatively outdated concepts and models that no longer apply to EU/PC theory and are no longer used in EU/PC theory.
 
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Michael

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Electric Universe - RationalWiki

Electric Universe (EU)[2] is an umbrella term that covers various pseudo-scientific cosmological ideas built around the claim that the formation and existence of various features of the Universe can be better explained by electricity and magnetism than by gravity alone. As a rule, EU is usually touted as an aether-based theory with numerous references to tall tales from mythology.[3][4] However, the exact details and claims are ambiguous, lack mathematical formalism, and often vary from one delusional crank to the next.

Gee, "crank", "pseudoscience" and false claims about a lack of mathematical formalism all in the first paragraph. I'm sure that wasn't written by a proponent of the ideas, and they clearly never read on the books I suggested in the OP, or they wouldn't make such ridiculous claims about a lack of mathematical formalism.
Velikovsky....
Velikovsky plays no role whatsoever in my personal beliefs nor the beliefs of Peratt or Alfven or Birkeland or anyone other than perhaps (not sure) Wal Thornhill. Velikovsky's work is irrelevant to my OP and irrelevant to EU/PC theory in general. Admittedly lots of weird ideas get stuffed under the umbrella of EU/PC theory, but that's hardly Birkeland's fault or Alfven's fault, or Peratt's fault, or my fault.

If I had to guess, I'd assume that page was written by RealityCheck(01) since it's deceptive, insulting and ignorant to say the least. Only someone with a huge chip on their shoulder would go out of their way to write that kind of garbage to start with, and only someone who's never read any of the books in my OP would erroneously claim that EU/PC theory lacks math.



 
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Michael

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https://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/

I have already posted my comments about that website under my real name on that particular blog too, again using my full name "Michael Mozina". I've also posted a lengthy rebuttal at Thunderbolts. You'll find the link to the appropriate Thunderbolt's thread on that page listed in my posts on that blog.

Suffice to say his opening claim about EU/PC solar models predicting "no neutrinos" is absolutely and utterly false, as is his second claim about EU/PC solar models not producing a black body spectrum. There's nothing about that particular critique that it true, fair or accurate.

That's another great example of a public EU/PC hater who has no idea what he's talking about.
 
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Michael

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A viewpoint that is not supported by the people who actually study the universe.

How I know “plasma cosmology” is wrong | Galactic Interactions
Plasma Cosmology debunked - plasma universe theory wrong
Plasma cosmology - Wikipedia
Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked
Electric Universe - RationalWiki
https://briankoberlein.com/2014/02/25/testing-electric-universe/

This is just another movement like anti-vaxxers or the flat earth bunch or moon landing conspiracy theorists. It's not worth any attention.

Ok, I think I've dealt with most if not all of your references. Do you personally have a valid scientific argument against EU/PC theory to offer us?
 
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Michael

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[Staff edit].

(Never mind that EU and PC theory have been completely severed by Peratt years ago, on his own website, for starters .. Edit: Peratt's site is here his disclaimer reads: "The Plasma Universe and Plasma Cosmology have no ties to the anti-science blogsites of the holoscience 'electric universe' ").

Ya, it's true that Peratt has a problem with Thornhill, but you'll notice I didn't list Thornhill as a reference in the OP to start with, and I'm sure Peratt still stands by his own work. I respect Peratt's desire to distance himself from Juergens, Velikovski and Thornhill, but I have no personal interest in discussing their work to start with. I also have no personal need to disavow myself from them, even if I disagree with some of their ideas, or even most of their ideas.

[Staff edit].
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

FYI, I've already posted my comments to that blog under my full name (Michael Mozina) and I started a full thread on that particular hit piece on Thunderbolts which you can find here:

Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Multi-point EU critique: can these points be addressed?

Suffice to say the whole neutrino argument in a ruse. About the only thing that it demonstrates is that Jeurgen's original solar model was probably wrong because it only predicts one type of neutrino (like the standard model did back then) and fewer of them, about a 1/3rd since that was the observed number of electron neutrinos at the time he wrote his original proposal. Juergen's anode solar model however has since been "updated" by authors like Donald Scott who have addressed those issues and who continue to promote Jeurgen's solar model, albeit a revised and updated version of it. I'm not even particularly fond of Jeurgen's anode solar model personally, but that website doesn't even eliminate an updated Jeurgen's model. The author of the blog was dreaming alright. :)

The other interesting development in solar physics since that blog was first written is that the mainstream's predictions about convection were later blown out of the water in 2012 by SDO. The mainstream predictions about the speed of convection were shown to be wrong by two whole orders of magnitude in fact:

Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

If anything, that particular argument the author of that blog only strengthens the EU/PC model. How ironic. :)
t
That blog also demonstrates that most "critiques" of EU/PC theory come from anonymous sources, and they are typically based on relatively outdated concepts and models that no longer apply to EU/PC theory and are no longer used in EU/PC theory.

I gave a seminar on mixing about decade ago. It is interesting how the SM has changed to accommodate what was controversial only a decade ago in QFT. In general, because the alleged mass energy of the the particles is "so low" that they cannot be distinguished between Dirac and Majorana particles. (I had this conversation with someone on here even - that they are Majorana particles.) Violations makes some academics go so crazy, they throw baby out with the bathwater.

QTFT readily explains the alleged parity and charge violations that make QM run for the hills. There are ways to vindicate massive neutrinos as Majorana particles through measuring weak force sensitively.
 
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SelfSim

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[Staff edit].

... Suffice to say his opening claim about EU/PC solar models predicting "no neutrinos" is absolutely and utterly false,

[Staff edit].

The question can be broken down into two components.
(1) Does EU/PC theory predict neutrinos?
(2) If so what are the numerical predictions (maths!) and how does it compare to the measured values?

If both cases the answer is no.

[Staff edit].

Nuclear fusion is a collision theory and the probability of collisions occurring depends on the collision cross section.
In the Sun’s core, which is defined by high temperature and density, the collision cross section is high enough for powering the Sun for billions of years.
At the surface or in the photosphere, densities and pressures are too low and the collision cross section is too low to support fusion.

The other problem is that if fusion occurs at or near the surface, where are the gamma ray photons that are also a product of nuclear fusion?
For fusion occurring in the core, this is not a problem as high energy photons are absorbed and re-emitted as they travel towards the surface.
By the time they reach the surface the photons have lost most of their energy and reach us in the IR, visual and UV range of the spectrum.

Michael's surface fusioning, cherry-picked EU/PC theory, would predict the Sun to be a bright gamma ray object which would completely fry us, and just about everything else on the surface of the Earth!

[Staff edit].
 
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Michael

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Is it really fair to compare this to flat eartherism, which can be disproven by anyone with a bit of work?

No, but it's standard operating procedure for EU/PC critics. They typically can't seem to grasp the concept that it's possible to prefer a different cosmology theory, not so much because one rejects the standard model, but because one simply prefers a different model which they've spent time and effort to understand.

I've yet to meet a single critic that's read Peratt's book for themselves, and very few that have bothered to read Birkeland's work or Alfven's work. I've yet to hear a valid criticism of Alfven's book or any of his papers in fact.

I've seen a few valid criticisms of some "fringe" concepts associated with EU/PC theory, but none related to Birkeland, Alfven, or Peratt. Birkeland was a "tad off" (sarcasm intended) in terms of the speed of the charged particles in solar wind, but he got the "strahl" speed pretty much on the money. CME events do produce particle flow speeds that come close to Birkeland's original predictions.
 
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SelfSim

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... It shows a sense of desperation IMO, particularly since inelastic scattering has been *lab demonstrated* (like most l EU/PC concepts) whereas "space expansion" and "dark energy" and inflation have not. Rob's explanation for photon redshift involve three different forms of metaphysical constructs (inflation, space expansion, dark energy), whereas inelastic scattering is a *well documented* and *lab demonstrated* way that photons lose momentum.

[Staff edit].

Shown to be in error about this in the CFs thread here.

[Staff edit].
 
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