Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

[Der Alte]

Well, I just re-read the OP of this thread and I don't see any outrage.

What I tend to see by people supporting Universal Reconciliation is an attitude of grace towards other posters.

You see what you want to see. You are one of them so whatever they say, in your eyes, they can do no wrong.

Funny isn't it that the one position that maximises God's grace has people showing more grace than others.

Scriptural truth is not decided by what "feels good" to someone#

To those readers who have become dissatisfied with the tradition view of eternal concious torment it is worth looking into Christian or Evangelical Universalism.

"Being dissatisfied," and what feels good is not the scriptural way to decide what is right and wrong.

Good places to start are at tentmaker#org and hopebeyondhell.net .

You left one out, Hell-Busters. Bintherdunthatgotthetshirtdontfit# Same ol' stuff that gets posted here day after day.

At hope beyond hell the pdf version of a book by that na#e is available for free download# There is also an abridged 48 page version# And a print copy available at amazon. Mike.

Bintherdunthatgotthetshirtdontfit. I went to that website read the stuff written on the first page# Two typewritten pages, 1750 words and not one scripture to support any of the assertions made, nothing but the guys opinion and it is the same ol' stuff that get posted here day after day.

Historically the Hell:No! view being expounded here is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of hell. Jesus was born into and grew to adulthood in that culture. He knew what the Jews believed. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not. Here is historical evidence to support what I just said.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

====================================================

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Ariston]

No annihilationist has explicitly addressed my positions here:

So the Rich Man and Lazarus explanation offered is descriptive of torment in Judgement. That God would resurrect tormented souls into bodies simply for annihilation is not an idea found anywhere in the Bible nor does it seem seem reasonable to make off of inference. That is to say, such a notion is nowhere implied. Even if this texts refers to an intermediate period before Judgment, which it may, final judgment is bodily and eternal as Daniel 12 explicitly states.

In following Second Temple Judaism and the description of Resurrection to Eternal Judgement taught in Daniel 12 (see post #12), both Jesus and Paul affirm the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous:

"And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man (See Daniel 7:13-14). Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - (Jn. 5:27)

This is later reafirmed when Martha tells Jesus in the distinct story later in John's Gospel,

“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Paul then, the expert in Jewish Law and most important missionary and propagator of the Christian faith, according to Acts claims,

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:14-15).

Following his traditional Jewish beliefs, Paul emphasizes the bodily nature of the resurrection throughout his letters as well:

"For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." - 2 Corinthians 5:2-5

and then,

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." - (Philippians 3:20-21)

Though, these two passages are only in regards to the bodily resurrection of the righteous, following Paul's explicit position in Acts 24 (see above), a bodily resurrection of the unjust is in order as well. In other words, it is very problematic to reject anything other than a bodily resurrection of the righteous to glory and the wicked to everlasting contempt and shame (see post #18) in the New Testament. This appears to be the mainstream position handed on through tradition and affirmed in the churches during the second century as well. Thus Paul deserves to be heard in all his Jewishness in teaching judgment of the wicked as the bodily resurrection as everlasting shame when he affirms in his Letter to the Romans:

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." - Romans 2:5-11

 

[Der Alte]

Same thing with Eternal Torment, if people are tortured forever, how are they Away from God? As God(YHWH) is Everywhere.

It's just a metaphor, God doesn't have face, nor do humans, we're Immaterial. they are away from God, in other words they are away from life, they have no life, they're dead.

The universal UT ploy. When scripture, as written, disproves one of their beliefs/doctrines, simply dismiss it as metaphor, or some other figure of speech.

And there's no denying annihilation, #1 God wouldn't torture anyone, He loves His enemies, never ever tortured anyone. #2 punishment for sins is death, clearly said by Jesus Christ in John 3:35-36,

Emotional appeal opinion without scriptural support.

" The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice.)

No, this does not prove that the wrath of God means death. Here is the definition of the word "orge". Neither justice nor injustice is part of the definition.

ὀργή orgē or-gay'

From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.​

 

[Ariston]

Thoughts on the Gospel of John

Conditionalist or annihilationists often want do use the Gospel of John to emphasize that that eternal life is bestowed upon those who believe in Jesus and are born of the Spirit and water. They often suggest that this implies that those who do not receive eternal life are annihilated. However, though Jesus as recorded in The Gospel of John does want to emphasize the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous (Jn. 5:27), considering how eternal life is defined by Jesus in John's Gospel appears to be in conflict with this suggestion:

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

That is to say, eternal life is to share in the life of God through Jesus Christ but not, so far as I know, concerned with a eternal duration of time. As Christ the Lord emphasizes a bit later in that same chapter:

"The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

If as it appears that "life" and "death" in the Gospel of John and 1 John refer to knowing God the Father through Jesus Christ by the Spirit, as eternal life is not explicitly concerned with an unending duration of time, the absence of life could not be the negation of an unending duration of time. Thus to infer annihilation from the wrath of God is dubious since the wrath of God or death would have to refer to the opposite of eternal life which in accordance with the definition that the Beloved Disciple offers up, so it seems, should be understood as the privation of God suffered by the wicked who are raised.

 

[Ariston]

Considerations from the New International Bible Dictionary

"The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated references to eternal punishment (Matt 25:46), eternal fire (Matt 18:8, Jude 7), everlasting chains (Jude 6), the pit of the Abyss (Rev. 9: 2,11), outer darkeness (Matt. 8:12), the wrath of God (Rom 2:5), second death (Rev 21:8), eternal destruction from the face of God (2 Thess. 1:9), and eternal sin (Mark 3:29). While many of these terms are symbolic and descriptive, they connote real entities, about whose existence there can be no doubt.
The duration is explicitly indicated in the N.T. The word "eternal" (aionios) is derived from the verb aion, signifying an "age" or "duration." Scripture speaks of two aeons, or ages: the present age and the age to come (Mat 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30, Eph 1:21). The present age - this world - is always contrasted with the age to come as temporal, while the future age will be endless, just so the retributive aspects of hell refers to the future infinite age. In every reference in which aionos applies to the future punishment of the wicked, it indisputably denotes endless duration (Matt 18:8, 25:41, 46; Mark 3:29; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 6:2, Jude 7).
Hell is, therefore, both a condition of retribution and a place in which that retribution occurs. In both of these aspects the three basic ideas associated with the concept of hell are reflected: absence of righteousness, separation from God, and judgment."

 

[SavedByChrist94]

You see what you want to see. You are one of them so whatever they say, in your eyes, they can do no wrong.

Scriptural truth is not decided by what "feels good" to someone

"Being dissatisfied," and what feels good is not the scriptural way to decide what is right and wrong.

(staff edit)

Phillippians 4:8 - "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."

Sin is not satisify, Only YHWH is, that's murder, lying, stealing, rape, adultery(cheating) etc are condemned they do not satisfy someone, they Harm,

What is Sin?

Lawlessness, Bible says it that settles it, Sin is basically Lawlessness

And The Law is Matthew 7:12 - "Treat others the same way you would want them to treat you'


So being lawless is Not Treating others the same way you would want them to treat you.

Sin is basically Harm.

That's how you could tell other religions are false, we know they are evil/cause harm and we know Christianity is the only truth. The Holy Spirit.

And you're right Scripture decides what is right (staff edit)

1 Timothy 4 - "4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer."

Last but not least,

Colossians 2:20-23 - No it doesn't, Colossians 2:20-23 - "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."(This passage proves that flesh doesn't mean literal flesh, but is a term.)

(staff edit)
Also gehenna was a dump, Printer friendly version of the entire free book: Myth One or Satan's Lie

Their Worm Does Not Die: Annihilation and Mark 9:48

In my recent response to Matt Chandler’s otherwise praiseworthy The Explicit Gospel, I criticized what I believe to be several mistakes Chandler makes concerning final punishment. One of them, I argued, was that in citing Jesus’ words in Mark 9:48 Chandler fails to point out that the passage Jesus quotes “explicitly says that it is corpses whose ‘worm will not die’.”1 I made the claim that “The idiom communicates the shame of having one’s corpse unburied, and arguably the irresistible and complete consumption of those corpses by maggots.”
Many traditionalists, however, who do point out that the hosts of Isaiah’s undying worms were corpses, nevertheless insist that the imagery supports the traditional view of hell. Whether they believe maggots will literally feed upon the bodies of the wicked for eternity—albeit living, immortal bodies—or whether they believe the idiom symbolically points toward an eternity of conscious torment, either way it is argued that the text of Isaiah, quoted by Jesus, depicts ever-consuming worms which never die. The fire that isn’t quenched will be the subject of a future post here at Rethinking Hell; in the meantime, let us take a look at the gruesome idiom that is its parallel.


Misquoting Jesus

It’s worth noting first that when traditionalists quote this favorite of their proof-texts, they often misquote it. Neither Isaiah 66:24 nor Mark 9:48 say that the worm will “never” die. Very dynamic, thought-for-thought translations like the Common English Bible and the New Living Translation will sometimes say the worm will never die, but this is an act of interpretation, not translation. Most translations, particularly more literal ones, render the text “will not,” “shall not” or “does not” die. That’s all that the author says as part of the idiom.

This doesn’t stop Robert Morey from writing that “Christ used the phrases ‘unquenchable fire’ and ‘never-dying worms’.”2 Thankfully Morey acknowledges that this is his “paraphrase.”3 Other authors do not: Robert Reymond tells us that “here the impenitent’s ‘maggot’ is said never to die”;4 Christopher Morgan says the “agents of suffering (the worm and the fire) are never extinguished”;5 John Blanchard says these passages refer to “a worm constantly gnawing at those who are condemned to spend eternity there.”6

(staff edit)

 

[SavedByChrist94]

The Fire Is Not Quenched: Annihilation and Mark 9:48 (Part 2)

A few months ago we took a look at Mark 9:48, in which Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24 and refers to gehenna as the place where “their worm does not die.” Critics of conditionalism often misquote or misunderstand the idiom as depicting a consuming maggot that eternally feeds upon but never fully consumes its host, and I had explained that quite the opposite is true. Similar to the scavengers of Deuteronomy 28:26 and Jeremiah 7:33 which will not be frightened away and prevented from fully consuming carrion, the worm “will not be prevented by death from fully consuming dead [bodies] … their shame is made permanent and everlasting by being fully consumed.”1

Of course this image is only the first of two which Isaiah and Jesus use to paint their horrifying picture of final punishment. Just as the worm will not die, they promise that “the fire is not quenched,” an idiom that appears in a very similar form just a few verses before Christ’s appeal to Isaiah when he calls gehenna “the unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Elsewhere John the Baptist says that God “will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17). Traditionalists typically understand these phrases to mean that the fire will never go out, implying that its fuel—the unredeemed—will exist eternally, being burned forever, yet never completely consumed. But as we’ll see, this idiom is as misunderstood as its abhorrent parallel.

To quench or not to quench

Traditionalists typically assume that Isaiah contrasts a natural worm, which normally dies after it has consumed its food, with a supernaturally undying worm that never runs out of food. In a similar way, traditionalist Robert Peterson reasons that, “Although all earthly fires eventually consume their fuel and go out, the fire of hell never comes to an end because its work is never done.”2 Edward Donnelly concurs, explaining that conquerors would burn the corpses of their enemies to shame them, but “at least the fire went out when it had used up all its gruesome fuel … Here, however, the fire is never quenched.”3

This line of reasoning, however, is based on a very peculiar definition of the word quenched. As illustrated by Donnelly’s words above, traditionalists understand quenched in this passage to mean “went out.” Yet that is not how the word is typically used. When we speak of quenching things, such as a thirst, we are talking about extinguishing it. When firefighters are called upon to quench a house fire, they don’t typically arrive on the scene only to stand idly by and watch a family’s home burn to the ground; even if it were unquenchable, it would still go out naturally after it consumes its fuel. One might, in fact, be forgiven for doubting that traditionalists ever use quench to mean “die out” in any other context besides Scripture.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the English word primarily as, whether literally or figuratively, “to put out or extinguish the fire or flame of (something that burns or gives light).”4 Other definitions include “to put out, extinguish, douse,” “to destroy the sight of (an eye); to blind,” “to oppress, crush; to kill, destroy,” and “to put (a person) down; to reduce to silence; to quell.” Most definitions of quench likewise carry some form of the meaning “to put an end to.” Only a tiny handful of its many definitions connote something like “to go out.” (And those meanings are rare or obsolete.)

Still, though very rare, this use of the English word quench does exist. The same appears to be true in the original biblical languages. The Hebrew and Greek words translated quench primarily mean something like “to extinguish,” but they are capable of being used to mean “to go out.” For example, Proverbs 26:20 reads, “For lack of wood the fire goes out [kabah]. And where there is no whisperer, contention quiets down.” Matthew 25:8 reads, “The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out [sbennymi]’.” So which meaning, then, is intended in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:48 and similar texts?

Quench in Hebrew

In some texts where kabah connects to ordinary fire the Hebrew word, our English quench, might mean something like “die out.” Aside from Proverbs 26:20, it’s used twice in Leviticus 6:12-13 to say, “The fire on the altar shall be kept burning on it. It shall not go out.” 1 Samuel 3:3 says, “The lamp of God had not yet gone out.” Proverbs 31:18 says of a good wife that “her lamp does not go out at night.” Although it could be argued to mean “put out” in these texts, the consensus among major translations might be reason enough to concede that it can occasionally mean “die out.”

In other places, on the other hand, and in a variety of contexts, kabah takes “put out” as its primary meaning. A widow tells the king that she fears the execution of her only remaining son and his heir, that in so doing “they will extinguish my coal which is left, so as to leave my husband neither name nor remnant on the face of the earth” (2 Samuel 14:7). When David wearies in battle, risking being killed by a Philistine, his men swore to him, saying, “You shall not go out again with us to battle, so that you do not extinguish the lamp of Israel” (2 Samuel 21:17). God promises to “extinguish” Pharaoh in Ezekiel 32:7. Hezekiah tells the priests and Levites in 2 Chronicles 29:6-7 that “our fathers have been unfaithful and have … put out the lamps.” Additional uses like this include Song of Solomon 8:7 and Isaiah 43:17.

It is interesting to note at this point that the aforementioned consensus among translators—which might prompt one to concede that kabah can occasionally mean “go out”—is the same consensus which therefore ought to prompt traditionalists to concede that it does not carry that meaning in Isaiah 66:24. Major translations almost universally render it something like “go out” when it is believed to be used in that way, such as in Proverbs 26:20, otherwise translating it “put out,” “extinguish,” or “quench.” With few exceptions, the vast majority of these translations render kabah in Isaiah 66:24 as “put out,” “extinguished,” or “quenched.” Their consensus suggests the word carries its primary meaning there.

It is the remaining uses of kabah which are most useful for determining whether or not the consensus among most major translations of Isaiah 66:24 is correct, for their contexts are similar: the fiery, inextinguishable wrath of God. In Ezekiel 20:47-48, God tells Ezekiel to say,

47 … Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it will consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. 48 All flesh will see that I, the Lord, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.
The meaning of kabah in this text is clearly “put out.” Whether to be taken literally or not, although the fire “will not be quenched,” it is clear that the trees which fuel the fire will not burn eternally, for the fire will “consume” (‘akal) them. When the word translated “consume” describes what fire does, it means completely burn up. Hence the text of Exodus 3:2 uses it to say that although Moses saw that “the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed [‘akal].” The bush, though burning, was not burned up completely; but the green and dry trees would be, by the unquenchable fire of God.

Similarly, Jeremiah 17:27 reads, “If you do not listen to me … I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour [‘akal] the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched [kabah].” God did not threaten that the buildings of Jerusalem would burn perpetually forever, but that, unable to be extinguished, his fire would reduce them to rubble. Amos 5:6 likewise says, “He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph, and it will consume [‘akal] with none to quench it [kabah].”

Even traditionalists often recognize that in these texts and others, in which the fire of God is not able to be quenched, it does not mean the object of God’s wrath will burn forever, but that the fire will burn unabated until its intended destruction is complete. John Gill, for example, writes of Ezekiel 20:47-48 that it refers to “either the succession of these calamities one after another; or the force and strength of them, which should not be abated until the ruin of the city was completed … no stop put to it by all the art and power of man” (emphasis mine).56 Commenting on Jeremiah 17:27 Gill wrote that the fire would not be quenched “until it has utterly destroyed the city: this was fulfilled by the Chaldeans” (emphasis mine).7 And of Amos 5:6 he wrote, “His wrath and fury break out like fire as the Targum, by sending an enemy to invade the land, destroy it … [they] would not be able to avert the stroke of divine vengeance, or turn back the enemy, and save the land from ruin.”8

God’s burning wrath which wouldn’t be quenched, prophesied in 2 Kings 22:17 and 2 Chronicles 34:25, found its fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in the subsequent chapters of both books. Still other examples could be brought to bear, but from all of these it’s evident that the unquenchable fire of Isaiah 66:24 need not refer to a fire which burns forever because its fuel is never fully consumed, but can instead—and likely does, given these parallels—refer to a fire which cannot be extinguished prematurely before it completely consumes the wicked. And since the worm that won’t be prevented by death from fully consuming the wicked is the parallel to the unquenchable fire, we have every reason to believe that’s what the fire likewise does.

Unquenchable in Greek

Besides Matthew 25:8 where it may mean “die out,” and besides Mark 9:48 (because it is the verse in question), everywhere sbennymi (quench) is used in the New Testament it means “put out.”9 As we’ve seen, the best understanding of Isaiah 66:24 is that it likewise refers to a fire which, being inextinguishable, completely consumes. Lacking any indication that the meaning is being changed, it means the same thing when cited by Jesus in Mark 9:48. But what about the “unquenchable” (asbestos) fire in verse 43 and other texts?

Matthew records John the Baptist saying of Jesus, “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly clear his threshing floor; and he will gather his wheat into the barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable [asbestos] fire” (Matt. 3:12; cf. Luke 3:17). When chaff is separated from wheat and burned, we know what happens to it: it is completely burned up and reduced to ashes. What’s more, given that the context is the fiery wrath of God, the precedent set in the Old Testament informs us that Jesus is referring to a fire which, incapable of being put out prematurely, will burn up the object of God’s wrath entirely.

Furthermore, the Greek word translated “burn up” is katakaiō which, like its Hebrew equivalent (‘akal), means to completely consume. When the Jewish translators of the Septuagint rendered Exodus 3:2 in Greek they wrote that while the bush was burning it was not katakaiō or consumed. On the other hand, Paul said that the work of some believers will remain but that the work of others will not remain, instead being katakaiō or “burned up” (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Perhaps the most graphic use of katakaiō in connection with the unsaved can be found in Matthew 13. Jesus tells the parable of the wheat and the tares, saying in verse 30, “In the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, ‘First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn’.” Interpreting the parable as analogous to the fate of the wicked, beginning in verse 40 Jesus says,

40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned [katakaiō] with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire… (Matt. 13:40-42)
Beyond likening the fate of sinners to chaff completely burned up by fire, Jesus says they will be thrown into a “furnace of fire,” alluding to Malachi 4:1-3 in which the Lord says (all emphases mine),

1 For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze … so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name … 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing …
So when Jesus and his forerunner John liken the destiny of the lost to chaff burned up by “unquenchable” fire, they are not saying that the unredeemed will suffer forever in flames. Instead, they are saying that those flames are incapable of being extinguished prematurely, and will therefore irresistibly and completely consume the wicked until all that remains is no more than remains.

The fire is not quenched

Isaiah 66:24 which says “their fire will not be quenched,” and its citation by Jesus in Mark 9:48, as well the “unquenchable fire” of Mark 9:43, Matthew 3:12, and Luke 3:17, have been believed by traditionalists through the centuries to depict a fire which never dies out, and in which the lost consciously suffer for eternity. If one were to compile a list of the texts most frequently cited by traditionalists, these verses would, no doubt, appear toward the top of that list. But a simple look at how the idiom is used by the authors of the Old and New Testaments reveals that this is not at all what they had in mind.

Instead, when the authors of Scripture wrote that the fiery wrath of God is incapable of being quenched, they meant that it irresistibly consumes. Like a raging house fire which firefighters are unable to extinguish, therefore burning the building to the ground, the unquenchable fire of God completely destroys. Like chaff separated from wheat and burned up, the risen wicked, Jesus says, will be thrown into a furnace of fire and reduced to remains. Far from supporting the position of critics of conditionalism, these verses, some of the favorites of traditionalists, clearly teach the final annihilation of the unsaved.

 

[Ariston]

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Phantasman]

I cannot understand someone calling another a "liar". Lying is when one believes or knows one way and orates another. The Holy Spirit doesn't expose anything. It reveals the truth to the seeker who seeks it in spirit.

 

[SavedByChrist94]

The universal UT ploy. When scripture, as written, disproves one of their beliefs/doctrines, simply dismiss it as metaphor, or some other figure of speech.

It's a metaphor whether it's eternal torment or annihilation, there's no Possible way you can be Away from God(YHWH), He's everywhere whether it's eternal torment or annihilation.

So it's a clear metaphor. you have no excuse.

Emotional appeal opinion without scriptural support.

Without any Scripture support for Loving enemies and Jesus Christ saying they will not exist?

No, I used absolutely no emotional appeal, purely scripture,

YHWH loves His enemies, = Matthew 5:42-48 - "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said(Said by Pharisees, False Unbiblical laws such as...) ...‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Jesus Christ(YHWH)

They will cease to exist = John 3:35-35 - " The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” " - Jesus Christ(YHWH)

That proves irrefutably that it's not wrath as in violence, as Violence can only be experienced if you Live/Exist, Jesus Christ right there just said they will Not See Life.

Case Closed. Annihilation is Biblical, Eternal Torment is an Secular doctrine of man.

Also even more, The Law is Matthew 7:12 - "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

YHWH doesn't sin, which means Lawlessness(1 John 3:4 - "Sin is Lawlessness"), so therefore He is Not Lawless, meaning He Treats others the same way He would want others to treat Him,

YHWH cannot Sin, He cannot be Lawless of His own Law,

James 1:13 - Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

Don't lie anymore, you cannot hide the truth, no matter how much you want to suppress it. that's the same lying that atheists do when people prove irrefutablely that YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit) exists and is God.

No, this does not prove that the wrath of God means death. Here is the definition of the word "orge". Neither justice nor injustice is part of the definition.

ὀργή orgē or-gay'

From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.​

Anger does not equal Violence, one of the definitions you choose to ignore is Indignation, it's righteous/just anger, like being angry about someone being murdered/wronged. the anger motivates you to do the right things, and you Assume that it's eternal torment, when it's actually Annihilation.

So yes, you prove the point, it is Justice/Just Non-Retributive Anger.

Justice is Restorative, which is what Annihilation would be, Restorative, as allowing a sinner who's never going to repent live forever, would just cause harm.

Retribution is a Sin as it is Lawless of The Law, which is Matthew 7:12, "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Retribution violates this Law and is therefore a Sin.

 

[SavedByChrist94]

I cannot understand someone calling another a "liar". Lying is when one believes or knows one way and orates another. The Holy Spirit doesn't expose anything. It reveals the truth to the seeker who seeks it in spirit.

Exposing is revealing The Truth, if someone is exposed as a liar, then that is a truth, that they lied. He is The Spirit of Truth, and Anti-Sex, Anti-Gay, Eternal Torment teachings of men are not truth, and are clearly exposed by Scripture,

Colossians 2:20-23 - "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."(This passage proves that flesh doesn't mean literal flesh, but is a term.)

I'm not being mean, what's mean is indoctrinating anyone to false man made sin/lawless teachings such as eternal torment.

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Exactly, you have itchy ears for Eternal Torment and you reject Truth that is in the text such as, John 3:35-36 - "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

You do not treat others the same way you would want them to treat you and therefore are lawless, as you lie and spread false teachings, by that you are in sin, and do not YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit). you should repent because you know the truth,

#1, We have to obey YHWH's Law and we cannot be lawless/sin(1 John 3)

#2, The Law is Matthew 7:12 - “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

If you do not treat others the same way you would wan them to treat you, then you are in sin and are of the world,

If you hold to false man made teachings such as "do not handle, taste, touch" then you are of The World and not of Jesus Christ,

according to Not me, but according to The Apostle Paul by The Holy Spirit in Colossians 2:20-23,


Colossians 2:20-23 - "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."(This passage proves that flesh doesn't mean literal flesh, but is a term.)

Hopefully everyone repents and just do what YHWH commanded, which is treat others the same way you would want others to treat you, otherwise you won't have eternal life, it's so simple, even The Bible says it,

1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands(The Law/Matthew 7:12. And his commands are not burdensome,

 

[Butch5]

Yes it is,

see? I can do it too. atheists always do that when I prove YHWH exists, I prove that He exists and they suppress the truth and assert I didn't.

Eternal Torment is unbiblical, Jesus Christ said they will not see Life, in John 3:35-36, read first post again.

Also read, what is sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/10/what-is-sin.html

Lust is not a sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/04/lust-is-not-sin.html

Homosexuality is not a sin - savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2014/01/homosexuality-is-not-sin-irrefutable.html

I was agreeing with the last line in your post. "Eternal Torment is false and nowhere found in The Bible." We are in agreement on this issue.

 

[Der Alte]

The Fire Is Not Quenched: Annihilation and Mark 9:48 (Part 2)

A few months ago we took a look at Mark 9:48, in which Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24 and refers to gehenna as the place where “their worm does not die.” Critics of conditionalism often misquote or misunderstand the idiom as depicting a consuming maggot that eternally feeds upon but never fully consumes its host, and I had explained that quite the opposite is true. Similar to the scavengers of Deuteronomy 28:26 and Jeremiah 7:33 which will not be frightened away and prevented from fully consuming carrion, the worm “will not be prevented by death from fully consuming dead [bodies] … their shame is made permanent and everlasting by being fully consumed.”1

Of course this image is only the first of two which Isaiah and Jesus use to paint their horrifying picture of final punishment. Just as the worm will not die, they promise that “the fire is not quenched,” an idiom that appears in a very similar form just a few verses before Christ’s appeal to Isaiah when he calls gehenna “the unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Elsewhere John the Baptist says that God “will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17). Traditionalists typically understand these phrases to mean that the fire will never go out, implying that its fuel—the unredeemed—will exist eternally, being burned forever, yet never completely consumed. But as we’ll see, this idiom is as misunderstood as its abhorrent parallel. . .

We know what the author of this stuff believes but that is not what the Jews believed about Isaiah 66:24

Historically the Hell:No! view being expounded here is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of hell. Jesus was born into and grew to adulthood in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not do so. Here is historical evidence to support what I just said. Something your copy/pasted source does not have.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

====================================================

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Ariston]

Considerations from the New International Bible Dictionary

"The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated references to eternal punishment (Matt 25:46), eternal fire (Matt 18:8, Jude 7), everlasting chains (Jude 6), the pit of the Abyss (Rev. 9: 2,11), outer darkeness (Matt. 8:12), the wrath of God (Rom 2:5), second death (Rev 21:8), eternal destruction from the face of God (2 Thess. 1:9), and eternal sin (Mark 3:29). While many of these terms are symbolic and descriptive, they connote real entities, about whose existence there can be no doubt.
The duration is explicitly indicated in the N.T. The word "eternal" (aionios) is derived from the verb aion, signifying an "age" or "duration." Scripture speaks of two aeons, or ages: the present age and the age to come (Mat 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30, Eph 1:21). The present age - this world - is always contrasted with the age to come as temporal, while the future age will be endless, just so the retributive aspects of hell refers to the future infinite age. In every reference in which aionos applies to the future punishment of the wicked, it indisputably denotes endless duration (Matt 18:8, 25:41, 46; Mark 3:29; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 6:2, Jude 7).
Hell is, therefore, both a condition of retribution and a place in which that retribution occurs. In both of these aspects the three basic ideas associated with the concept of hell are reflected: absence of righteousness, separation from God, and judgment."

 

[SavedByChrist94]

I was agreeing with the last line in your post. "Eternal Torment is false and nowhere found in The Bible." We are in agreement on this issue.

Absolutely 100% apologize, didn't know.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Same thing with Eternal Torment, if people are tortured forever, how are they Away from God? As God(YHWH) is Everywhere.

Indeed. The purpose for man is to love, serve and know the Supreme Good. So even if Omnipresent, to be in a eternal state of NEVER serving the purpose for which one exists, is not only essentially being totally "destroyed" it is also as "far" away from God as one can ever get and certainly the opposite of what it means to be in Glory eternally.

It's just a metaphor, God doesn't have face, nor do humans, we're Immaterial. they are away from God, in other words they are away from life, they have no life, they're dead.

God made us a living body and soul. To suggest we need to "become" something else (lose the body) is to say it was not VERY GOOD that He made us that way - which was not a metaphor. Would also mean it bad that He became Man.

We do not speak of flying pigs as "dead" or "away from a place" or having "no face" because flying pigs do not exist. Neither could we speak of people who we claim to no longer exist as being "away" from some place.

And there's no denying annihilation, #1 God wouldn't torture anyone, He loves His enemies, never ever tortured anyone. #2 punishment for sins is death, clearly said by Jesus Christ in John 3:35-36,

How is this not the same lie Satan told Eve. The death is a loss of being able to share in His Eternal Happiness, a separation from that which occurred the moment Adam sinned for all mankind, and for each of us after Baptism when we sin gravely.
We separate people now with life sentences and as far as people not in jail are concerned that person is "dead" to us. We do not call that torture even when it last their lifetime, we call that separation Justice. The length of punishment is not a factor in deciding if something is torture or not.

" The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice.)

IN this particular context there is no way to assume "eternal life" simply means living forever and ever. It MUST mean so much more. It is that "so much more" that Jesus said would blow us away to see it. And is that "so much more" than just living forever and ever that those "who do not obey" will never see.

Besides the "wrath of God" cannot abide in something that no longer exists. Just like the 'wrath of God" can abide in flying pigs. It could abide forever and ever in something that does exist. And it would be MOST absurd to claim that thing "existing" with God's wrath abiding in it forever and ever means that thing has gained a share of God's Happiness. So no "eternal life" in this context CANNOT simply mean continuing to exist forever and ever.

I can understand why one who believes in annihilation needs those verses to mean that, but that understanding makes no sense at all because it claims we can have something "abiding" in something that does not exist and that thing which does not exist being "somewhere" (as in not somewhere else- presence of the Lord).

 

[Ariston]

Thoughts on Eternal Life in the Gospel of John

Conditionalist or annihilationists often want do use the Gospel of John to emphasize that that eternal life is bestowed upon those who believe in Jesus and are born of the Spirit and water. They often suggest that this implies that those who do not receive eternal life are annihilated. However, considering how eternal life is defined by Jesus in John's Gospel appears to be in conflict with this suggestion:

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

That is to say, eternal life is to share in the life of God through Jesus Christ but not, so far as I know, concerned with a eternal duration of time. As Christ the Lord emphasizes a bit later in that same chapter:

"The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

It appears that "life" and "death" in the Gospel of John and 1 John refer to knowing God the Father through Jesus Christ by the Spirit. As eternal life is not here concerned with an unending duration of time, the absence of life, is not I suggest, the negation of an unending duration of time (annihilation). In accordance with the definition that the Beloved Disciple offers up, so it seems, to be without eternal life is to be understood as suffering the privation of God and not as annihilation. Following Daniel 12, contemporary Judaism, and Paul, Jesus also emphasizes the resurrection of the the just and the unjust at the end of the age (Jn. 5:27).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Bodies do not cease to exist, Death means Nonexistence. bodies do not cease to exist, the person does. and therefore the person needs to be Resurrected/Given life by YHWH to live.

Non sequitur.
If a person ceases to exist then there is NOTHING to resurrect or give "life" to.
God could certainly bring people forward in time from their death, but that is not a "resurrection" even if He gives them new bodies in the process. He could certainly recreate a copy of a person that no longer exists, but that is not a "resurrection".

Jesus Christ even said it, John 3:35-36 - "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice not violence.)

Is this copying and pasting from a source?
I replied to this part in my last post.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I cannot understand someone calling another a "liar". Lying is when one believes or knows one way and orates another. The Holy Spirit doesn't expose anything. It reveals the truth to the seeker who seeks it in spirit.

I guess it is one of those nice polite, civil responses MrBigg was talking about. We get used to it.

 

[SavedByChrist94]

Considerations from the New International Bible Dictionary

A Dictionary made by men is not proof.

"The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated references to eternal punishment (Matt 25:46),

Assuming that The Eternal Punishment is torture, when it can mean Death, Death is the Punishment for sin, proven by the very verse you posted,

Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The Righteous get Eternal Life, not the Unrighteous, they don't get Eternal Life, they get Eternal Punishment, since this Eternal Punishment is Not Life, as it's opposite to Eternal Life, it is therefore Death/Nonexistence.

The unrighteous do not get the Reward of Eternal Life, only The Righteous according to that verse,

The Eternal Punishment is Nonexistence and that verse just proved it.

eternal fire (Matt 18:8, Jude 7),

Which also means death, and once again the very verse you cited, Jude 7 proves it,

Jude 7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

So what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah is the Example of Eternal Fire,

Sodom and Gomorrah were Annihilated and No longer exist.

Eternal Fire therefore means Death. Eternal Fire is not fire that last forever, that contradicts the very term Eternal Fire, as Fire does not burn forever, it destroys and goes out,

The term is clearly Fire that has Eternal consequences, which is Death/Nonexistence.

everlasting chains (Jude 6),

And again another verse that doesn't prove eternal torment,

Jude 6 - "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day"

The text makes no mention of eternal torment.

the pit of the Abyss (Rev. 9: 2,11),

Revaltion 9:2. - "When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss"

Again no mention of eternal torment/torture.

Revelation 9:11 - "They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer)."

And again no mention of eternal torment, this is embarrassing really.

outer darkeness (Matt. 8:12),

Matthew 8:12 - "But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

#1 Outer darkness does not mean eternal torment

#2 weeping and gnashing of teeth is not said to be eternal, simply says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, people do this when they are anger or anxious, they are anixous that they're going to not exist.

So another text with no eternal torment/torture.

the wrath of God (Rom 2:5),

The wrath(actually Justice/Indignation of God, not a good translation) of God, which is Death according to Jesus Christ Himself,

John 3:35-36 - "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Wrath of God doesn't mean eternal torment

second death (Rev 21:8),

Exactly, there you have it, Second death(nonexistence), I'll also add Revelation 20:14 - "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So far it's proven, Lake of fire, Eternal Fire, Eternal Punishment(eternal punishment of death) do not mean eternal torment, they mean Death/Nonexistence.

eternal destruction from the face of God (2 Thess. 1:9),

Once again, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

They will be punished with Everlasting Destruction... Destruction here means death!, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Lexicon: These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

The word translated into destruction(which also would mean death, hence Destroyed/Nonexistent) is olethron which means death.

and eternal sin (Mark 3:29).

Hell is, therefore, both a condition of retribution

Retribution is a sin,

Definition of sin is in 1 John 3:4 - "Sin is Lawlessness"

and The law is Matthew 7:12, "In everything, therefore, Treat others the same way you would want them to treat you, for this Is The Law and The Prophets[/QUOTE]

So since since means being lawless, and the Law is Treat others the same way you would want others to treat you,

Sin/Lawlessness therefore means Not treating others the way you would want them to treat you.

Sin is basically harm

Retribution harms, and is therefore a sin condemned by YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)

and YHWH/God does not sin(James 1:13).

So YHWH does not do retribution/harm, He brings Restoration. Retribution is of satan.

Justice is Restorative.

separation from God

You cannot be separate from God(YHWH), He's everywhere.

So as proven by the very verses you posted, Eternal Fire/Eternal Punishment/Wrath of God/Lake of Fire are all terms for Death/Nonexistence.

every verse you used backfired, it disproved eternal torture/torment and proved that wages of sin is eternal Nonexistence.