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Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by SavedByChrist94, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. Ariston

    Ariston Newbie

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    So it seems that the first passage with its reference in Isaiah 66 is highly metaphorical. That being said, it is difficult to get annihilationism out of it. If it is read literally, then one would have to hold that their dead flesh is burning eternally which really does not make sense in light of the judgment and new creation texts in the last several chapters of Isaiah which communicate eschatology in highly figurative language. So, though "...where their worm does not die and fire is not quenched," is a pronouncement of an eternal sentence that could go either way, in light of Daniel 12, Jesus, and Paul, annihilation seems dubious.

    So the Rich Man and Lazarus explanation offered above seems quite a bit worse off. This is descriptive of torment in Judgement. That God would resurrect tormented souls to bodies for annihilation is not a Biblical notion nor does it seem seem reasonable in light of the description in Revelations in which final judgment is described as "be[ing] tormented day and night forever and ever." That is to say, even if this texts refers to an intermediate period before Judgment, which it may, final judgment is bodily and eternal as Daniel 12 explicitly states.

    In following Second Temple Judaism and the description of Resurrection to Eternal Judgement taught in Daniel 12 (see post #12), both Jesus and Paul affirm the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous:

    "And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man (See Daniel 7:13-14). Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - (Jn. 5:27)

    This is later reafirmed when Jesus tells Martha in the distinct story later in John's Gospel,

    “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

    Paul then, the expert in Jewish Law and most important missionary and propagator of the Christian faith, according to Acts claims,

    "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:14-15).

    Following his traditional Jewish beliefs, Paul emphasizes the bodily nature of the resurrection throughout his letters as well:

    "For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." - 2 Corinthians 5:2-5

    and then,

    "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." - (Philippians 3:20-21)

    Though, these two passages are only in regards to the resurrection of the righteous, following Paul's explicit position in Acts 24 (see above), a resurrection of the unjust is in order as well. In other words, it is very problematic to reject anything other than a bodily resurrection of the righteous to glory and the wicked to everlasting contempt and shame (see post #18) in the New Testament. This appears to be the mainstream position handed on through tradition and affirmed in the churches during the second century as well. Thus Paul deserves to be heard in all his Jewishness in teaching judgment of the wicked as the bodily resurrection as everlasting shame when he affirms in his Letter to the Romans:

    "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." - Romans 2:5-11
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  2. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think Hades is not same as hell, because it is also thrown in the second death.

    Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:12-15

    I think it is also good to notice that the fire burns eternally. But it is not said that people live in that fire eternally.

    Also it is interesting thing that the Bible says also this about hell:

    And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    James 3:6

    So, I would say maybe hell is not as simple thing as people tend to think and maybe also it should be studied by this scripture:

    Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
    1 Cor. 2:14-15
     
  3. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    No it doesn't, it's clear, Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

    They're dead, stop suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

    No it isn't #1, it looks to be an interpolation as it contradicts a majority of text, especially mercy. #2 even if not an interpolation, it's not eternal torment, Lazarus and the Rich Man: It’s Not About Final Punishment | Rethinking Hell

    Then you haven't really studied the Bible, Revelation 20:14 - "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

    Lake of Fire = Second death, people are resurrected and then judged.

    No, it's not torment as in Physical Torture, could also be a torture/torment such as Death. this stems from Isaiah 34:10 - "It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever."

    Explicit Mistakes: A Response to Matt Chandler | Rethinking Hell

    So again, no eternal torment, Annihilation is the true doctrine

    And there you did it again, proving eternal torment is false,

    "those who have done good to the resurrection of Life"

    and "those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement"

    Those who have done evil don't get the Resurrection of Life, if they don't get life/Existence then they are dead.

    Annihilation proven again.

    So whoever does good gets Eternal Life, those who do not obey Do Not get Life, they die.

    And wrath here doesn't mean anger or violence, as the word for wrath is used for those who Do not get Life, meaning they can't suffer, it means Justice for lack of a better word, Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath

    Which is used in John 3:35-36 "35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    So wrath means Justice(For Lack of a better word) and here the word is used for death, as they will not see Life.


    And fury doesn't mean violence or torture as well, for example I am angry when someone harms another, doesn't mean I hurt others.

    There will be tribulation and distress, the sinners die, that's the tribulation and that's what's causing the distress.

    You have provided no verses proving eternal torment and have not refuted John 3:35-36, Annihilation is the truth of YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  4. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    Hades is Hell, Hell is a translation of Hades, which means the Grave, Hell means Grave.

    Go to rethinkinghell.com for more, Jude 1:7 says Sodom and Gomorrah are the Example of Eternal Fire, Remember Sodom and Gomorrah were Annihilated.

    Eternal Fire, basically the fire has eternally consequences, Nonexistence/Death.

    Jesus Christ said that they will not see Life,

    John 3:35-36 - " "35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    So wrath means Justice(For Lack of a better word) and not wrath as in violence here the word is used for death, as they will not see Life.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie

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    No it's not.
     
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I did not use any pejoritive epithets like "evil" or "ebil!"
     
  8. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    Yes it is,

    see? I can do it too. atheists always do that when I prove YHWH exists, I prove that He exists and they suppress the truth and assert I didn't.

    Eternal Torment is unbiblical, Jesus Christ said they will not see Life, in John 3:35-36, read first post again.

    Also read, what is sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/10/what-is-sin.html

    Lust is not a sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/04/lust-is-not-sin.html

    Homosexuality is not a sin - savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2014/01/homosexuality-is-not-sin-irrefutable.html
     
  9. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    And how does this theory deal with the immortal human soul and why?

    Bodies are "resurrected" not souls. A human is a body and a soul. We know our bodies die, but what of the human soul/spirit?
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    It is an "outer area". Lacking of life and love.

    Christ referred to this 'outer' area at different times. But people are blinded by Lukes rich man parable.

    Matthew
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    And

    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

    And

    And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    This is figurative, of course. Souls do not have teeth. And eyes see darkness and light. People take the Bible too literally. Christ taught in spirit, and it has to be imagined spiritually. And names are deceiving since they are only used in this world.

    Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon. -Philip
     
  11. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    dubious? :doh:
    They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

    Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

    Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
    5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
    6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

    So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture? [/B]

    Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

    Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

    Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

    2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

    Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

    Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

    Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

    Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

    2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

    Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
     
  12. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Heman,
    You keep posting verses. I would like to know how this verse you post is understood in your view.
    2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

    If
    the people suffering are annihilated how can it be said they are "away" from anything?

    Something which ceases to be is not "away" from anything. It no longer exists. To then speak of it as "being" somewhere or not somewhere (as in presence of the Lord or "away from" is nonsensical. So how does that verse make sense to you in light of your view?

     
  13. MikeBigg

    MikeBigg Member

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    Well, I just re-read the OP of this thread and I don't see any outrage.

    What I tend to see by people supporting Universal Reconciliation is an attitude of grace towards other posters.

    Funny isn't it that the one position that maximises God's grace has people showing more grace than others.

    To those readers who have become dissatisfied with the tradition view of eternal concious torment it is worth looking into Christian or Evangelical Universalism.

    Good places to start are at tentmaker.org and hopebeyondhell.net .

    At hope beyond hell the pdf version of a book by that name is available for free download. There is also an abridged 48 page version. And a print copy available at amazon.


    Mike
     
  14. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Being polite is a virtue. Feeling the need to say those opposed to one's view are "in the world" is at least offensive to those opposed if not indicating an underlying sense of "rage" that Christians would believe what has been clearly taught for several millennium.

    I would also note that unlike the OP the discussions in the link in the OP do not make or at least do not voice that assumption about those opposed. At least not in the few spots I read going into their case for annihilation.
     
  15. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    And since I went to the link the OP gave, I will note they spend a lot of time attempting to explain how "eternal" as it is alleged to apply to punishment in Scripture does not really mean forever and ever. Yet when "eternal occurs in same verse and same language as applied to BOTH "reward" and "punishment" we are left to wonder what distinction the writer gives us to show he understood this distinction attempting to be made. IOW if eternal does not mean forever and ever in one case, then why does it mean those in Heaven remain in that state forever and ever?
     
  16. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    :confused: As smoke vaporized by eternal exclusion and banishment far away and prevented forever in the depths of the grave being shut out to never see the face of God.

    9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [AMP]

    9 They will suffer the just penalty of eternal destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. [CJB]

    9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

    9 Those people will be punished with the destruction; that continues to be forever separated from the presence of the Lord and from his great power. [EXB]

    9 Their punishment will be eternal exclusion from the radiance of the face of the Lord, and the glorious majesty of power. [PHILLIPS]

    9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power. [NOG]

    9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might [NIV]

    9 And what’s to become of them? They’ll pay for what they’ve done; their punishment [agony] will be eternal destruction. And what’s worse? banished from the Lord’s presence and glorious power. [VOICE]

    So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture? [/b]
    Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

    Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

    Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

    2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

    Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

    Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

    Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

    Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

    2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

    Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
     
  17. DrBubbaLove

    DrBubbaLove Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist Supporter

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    Quoting Scripture is good but to what profit if one is unable to explain how one's view makes any sense with those Scriptures. Repeatedly quoting Scripture while refusing to answer questions is not a defense.

    Banishment is a term indicating separation. Please explain how something which does not exist can be "banished". Do we say flying pigs are "banished" which is why we do not see them?
     
  18. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    Same thing with Eternal Torment, if people are tortured forever, how are they Away from God? As God(YHWH) is Everywhere.

    It's just a metaphor, God doesn't have face, nor do humans, we're Immaterial. they are away from God, in other words they are away from life, they have no life, they're dead.

    And there's no denying annihilation, #1 God wouldn't torture anyone, He loves His enemies, never ever tortured anyone. #2 punishment for sins is death, clearly said by Jesus Christ in John 3:35-36,

    " The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice.)
     
  19. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    Universalism is false, there will be people that refuse to repent, as I explained before, allowing them to exist would be the same as eternal torment,

     
  20. SavedByChrist94

    SavedByChrist94 Newbie

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    Bodies do not cease to exist, Death means Nonexistence. bodies do not cease to exist, the person does. and therefore the person needs to be Resurrected/Given life by YHWH to live.

    Jesus Christ even said it, John 3:35-36 - "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice not violence.)
     
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