Eternal Security and Apostasy

[shakewell]

2 Peter 2:20:

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning."

Are the ones who have escaped the pollutions of the world, but then are again entangled in them, among the contingent of those you say "cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness"?

The new creature never escapes from the pollutions of the world because he was never in them in the first place. He's new and he's not according to the flesh (2 Cor 5:16,17).
The false teachers allure the escapers through the lust of the flesh (2 Peter 2:18). That alluring can't touch the new creature.

 

[P92]

The new creature never escapes from the pollutions of the world because he was never in them in the first place. He's new and he's not according to the flesh (2 Cor 5:16,17).
The false teachers allure the escapers through the lust of the flesh (2 Peter 2:18). That alluring can't touch the new creature.

According to you, who are those who have escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In those verses they're being exhorted as new believers but they're not being exhorted as new creatures.

There's no difference. The verse is clear; those who are in Christ ARE new creatures. So every new believer IS in Christ, and therefore, is a new creature.

2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Like I said.

The new creature is the believer being known apart from the flesh.

The key is v.17a - if any man be IN Christ, he IS a new creature.

Now, are there any who are IN Christ, but are not new creatures? Of course not.

 

[shakewell]

According to you, who are those who have escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Explain what this question has to do with what I was talking about. What are you getting at?

 

[shakewell]

There's no difference.

Yes there is. The difference is the flesh.

The verse is clear; those who are in Christ ARE new creatures.
.

Yes, but the flesh isn't.

So every new believer IS in Christ, and therefore, is a new creature.
.

Yes, and therefore they can't cease to believe. You have yet to provide any Scripture that shows that a believer ceases to believe.

Jesus is the author and ______?______ of our faith. Your "ceasers to believe" have some competition.

... he which hath begun a good work in you will _____?_____ it until the day of Jesus Christ. Your "ceasers to believe" can't impede God from completing His work in them.

Who are kept by the power of God through ____?____ unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. If your "ceasers" ceased they couldn't be kept.

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith ____?____ not. "Ceasers" ceasing are stronger than Jesus' prayer? I don't think so. Jesus intercedes for ALL believers.

 

[P92]

Explain what this question has to do with what I was talking about. What are you getting at?

You said that those who escaped the pollutions etc were not "new creatures" as you see it. So then, who are those who have escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

 

[shakewell]

You said that those who escaped the pollutions etc were not "new creatures" as you see it. So then, who are those who have escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

I had made a hypothetical if/then statement about 1 Timothy 4:1. I don't know how your question relates to it. Who do YOU think these people are you're asking about?

 

[P92]

I had made a hypothetical if/then statement about 1 Timothy 4:1. I don't know how your question relates to it.

Re 1 Tim 4:1: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons",

you said this

"I'm not saying the "some" in verse 1 can't be saved & secure believers, but the words "the faith" does not identify them as such. And if they're saved, then they're still a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness."

In the above, you assert that there is such a thing as a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness.

So then I asked you if those who have escaped the pollution of this world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20) were of this contingent, i.e., new creatures who cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness. And you answered in the negative.

So as a follow up to that, I am asking you, who then are those who escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ in 2 Peter 2:20?

 

[shakewell]

Re 1 Tim 4:1: "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons",
you said this
"I'm not saying the "some" in verse 1 can't be saved & secure believers, but the words "the faith" does not identify them as such. And if they're saved, then they're still a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness."
In the above, you assert that there is such a thing as a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of their carnal faithlessness.

I'll remove the pronouns: And if they're saved, then the believers are still a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of the believer's carnal faithlessness."
I suggest you scroll back from that post to see the context of the discussion.

 

[P92]

I'll remove the pronouns: And if they're saved, then the believers are still a new creature who cannot cease to believe, in spite of the believer's carnal faithlessness."
I suggest you scroll back from that post to see the context of the discussion.

Removing the pronouns doesn't obviate the question re 2 Peter 2:20: who are those who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? You've said they are not "new creatures". This was your quote:

"The new creature never escapes from the pollutions of the world because he was never in them in the first place. "

So who are they? It's a very simple question.

 

[shakewell]

Removing the pronouns doesn't obviate the question re 2 Peter 2:20: who are those who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? You've said they are not "new creatures". This was your quote:

"The new creature never escapes from the pollutions of the world because he was never in them in the first place. "

So who are they? It's a very simple question.

I said what I said because it's relevant to what I had been talking about.
I don't see relevance to your "very simple question".

 

[P92]

I said what I said because it's relevant to what I had been talking about.
I don't see relevance to your "very simple question".

You had no trouble answering my question about 2 Peter 2:20 and the "new creatures". You did not complain about relevance to your prior posting when giving said answer.

So why the sudden refusal to answer a similar question which is the logical outworking to your prior answer?

 

[shakewell]

You had no trouble answering my question about 2 Peter 2:20 and the "new creatures". You did not complain about relevance to your prior posting when giving said answer.

So why the sudden refusal to answer a similar question which is the logical outworking to your prior answer?

Your question is irrelevant and of no interest to me.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Hello! I attend a Southern Baptist church and for a long time I believed in eternal security, but I am now having doubts.

I researched the Anabaptist perspective and found it quite convincing. Basically, the article was saying that you can only be born again once. However, they believe that salvation can be lost through constant sinning, but God will take you back if you sincerely repent. They define it as a Christian who perpetually sins without repenting is a dead Christian, but he can be "resurrected" to the the faith. I like this interpretation because of its parallels to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The article also states that if those who renounce the faith were never really saved to begin with, that would imply that those believers would have to start over in the faith should the decide to come back, relaying a foundation in other words. An interesting example they used is Moses leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and making them go back to Egypt and start over on their trek to the Promised Land because they didn't get it right the first time.

While I find the Anabaptist perspective quite convincing, there is 1 John 2:19

You can't lose eternal life because it would have to be not eternal when God gave it to you. Since God can't lie it must be eternal.
Titus 1:2
2 Samuel 7:14-16
when it was gifted to you 1 Cor 15:1-4 it now belongs to you , if God took it away then God would be thief and would sin , since God can't sin you can't lose it .

When you are saved that's one part , but when you sin after being saved ,you are losing your inheritance in heaven which is forever , not for 1 year or two.

Imagine if everybody had car in heaven but you had to walk by foot , and it would be forever :C .

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes there is. The difference is the flesh.


Yes, but the flesh isn't.


Yes, and therefore they can't cease to believe. You have yet to provide any Scripture that shows that a believer ceases to believe.

Jesus is the author and ______?______ of our faith. Your "ceasers to believe" have some competition.

... he which hath begun a good work in you will _____?_____ it until the day of Jesus Christ. Your "ceasers to believe" can't impede God from completing His work in them.

Who are kept by the power of God through ____?____ unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. If your "ceasers" ceased they couldn't be kept.

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith ____?____ not. "Ceasers" ceasing are stronger than Jesus' prayer? I don't think so. Jesus intercedes for ALL believers.

I've explained the two natures of the believer. I can't make anyone accept it.

 

[shakewell]

I've explained the two natures of the believer. I can't make anyone accept it.

Natures don't believe or disbelieve, people do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Natures don't believe or disbelieve, people do.

So what? What's your point?

 

[shakewell]

So what? What's your point?

My point is that natures don't believe or disbelieve, people do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My point is that natures don't believe or disbelieve, people do.

Do people have a nature?

 

[P92]

Your question is irrelevant and of no interest to me.

Merely asserting that it is irrelevant does not make it so.

Be that as it may, would you refuse to answer this question as well?

"Can you explain how 2 Peter 2:20 accords with your understanding of the new creature and the flesh?"