Eternal Punishment

[Van]

In a recent thread, it was proposed that God sending people to Hell so they can suffer for eternity was unethical and unjust because the punishment was disproportional to the crime.

Here is how the argument was presented:

When thinking of it, it doesn't make any sense if God are the one that sends people to hell on judgment day, cause making someone suffer for all eternity really is worse then anything that anyone can do here on earth, but at the same time I know the bible says things like that we should not fear men and what they can do to us, cause they can only harm the body, but we should fear God, cause he can send both the body and soul to hell.

Anyone got a good explanation?

Lets back up and examine the argument. Does the Word of God say people will suffer for eternity? It says Satan and his cohorts will suffer for eternity, but does it say people will? What if people suffer for their misdeeds and then are destroyed. The Bible says we are to fear the One who can destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna (translated Hell).

So here are the questions: Does the Bible say people, human beings, will suffer forever? Does eternal punishment mean suffer or separation from God. (If those who go to Hell are separated from God forever, condemned to eternal darkness, then being separated could be described as eternal punishment, even if God destroyed them after causing them to suffer for their misdeeds.)

 

[HuntingMan]

Eternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that 'Hell' is a temporary place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire'.


Supporting Evidence
1.0

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

No eternal punishment = No eternal life....simple as that.

ALL the dead will be resurrected. Some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth,
those who have done good to the resurrection of life,
and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 MKJV)

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Into everlasting punishment -
The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering;. and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers.

In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”
8. that it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2Th_1:7-9; Luk_16:26; Rev_14:11; Psa_9:17; Isa_33:14; Mar_16:16; Joh_3:36.
Life eternal - Man by sin has plunged himself into death, temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2Ti_1:10. “Life” is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness forever.
-Albert Barnes

2.0
Aionios/Eternal and its context

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal (g166)life.
(Joh 3:15 KJV)

Huh....I guess that one would be a flat out lie if 'eternal' doesnt mean 'eternal'...
Same here;

And I give unto them eternal (g166)life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Lies again *IF* 'eternal' doesnt MEAN 'eternal'.

Heres a beauty...uses TWO DIFFERENT words entirely to make the point

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(g166) life:
(Rom 2:7 KJV)

immortality
G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

Looks like 'eternal' (g166) there is simply in AGREEMENT with the idea
Heres a nice one...

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (g166) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14 KJV)

I guess this means that not even the Spirit of God is 'eternal' if Aionios DOESNT mean 'eternal'
Or maybe Gods glory isnt 'eternal' either???

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal(g166) glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(1Pe 5:10 KJV)

Looks like the gospel also wouldnt be 'eternal'

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting (g166)gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(Rev 14:6 KJV)

Nor would be His kingdom

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (g166)kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:11 KJV)

And His covenant....not 'eternal'. I suppose

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (G166)covenant,
(Heb 13:20 KJV)

for the GRAND FINALE.....EVEN GOD HIMSELF apparently isnt 'eternal' according to some

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

3.0
Hebrews 9:12 shows that He has SECURED 'eternal redemtion' for us.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12 KJV)

It isnt talking about the process being eternal, but our redemption being eternal.


the CONTEXT of 'eternal life' is just THAT...ETERNAL LIFE

And I give unto them eternal (g166) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Gods word shows that that life is 'eternal' in the same way HE is by using the SAME greek word to describe it...aionios.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

 

[Rajni]

So here are the questions: Does the Bible say people, human beings, will suffer forever? Does eternal punishment mean suffer or separation from God. (If those who go to Hell are separated from God forever, condemned to eternal darkness, then being separated could be described as eternal punishment, even if God destroyed them after causing them to suffer for their misdeeds.)

I don't believe Scripture says humans will suffer forever. The list of Scriptures that suggest otherwise is too long to post here, but you can find them -- as well as other items relating to this issue -- at a site I maintain pertaining to the ultimate redemption of all here.

.

 

[IchoozJC]

Sheesh, HuntingMan. You went to all that trouble to type out that lengthy reply. Would be a shame if it wasn't pasted on every related thread, wouldn't it?


The think what would help, is if you could explain how this eternal torment that you propose is not only in line with the way you interpret the bible, but also how it is in line with God's character.

The way that I hear it explained is how God is just, and justice requires payment for wrongs. Therefor, sins that are not repented of require eternal torment.

Explain how that is just?

The payment for our sins was the death of a perfect man. God himself payed that. Right?

So why is it then that payment for unbelievers sins is eternal torment?

If believers sins are covered through the death of Christ, but God requires unbelievers to suffer endlessly, then why is not Christ still suffering endlessly for our sins? It's one or the other the way I see it.

How can God require us to forgive our enemies sins endlessly, when He Himself has a limit? Not only does He say forgive then forgive, but even says that we should do good to them in response to their evil acts.

Does God require something of us that He can't do?

I'd be much sooner to believe that someone was eternally put out of existence, than to believe they suffer a horrible firey torment FOREVER and EVER.

Can you even explain this in a way that shows you have knowledge of His character without cutting and pasting the same thing over and over? Lay the bible down, and show that you have a knowledge of God's character in your heart in your own words.

One more thought. Would you ever reach a limit with your dog if he was disobedient? Could you reach a point that whenever you seen him you beat him until all the strength was out of you. Then beat him some more? What would be the point if you weren't trying to teach him something? To correct his behavior.

Compared to God, aren't we just as foolish as dogs compared to us?

 

[Rajni]

Sheesh, HuntingMan. You went to all that trouble to type out that lengthy reply. Would be a shame if it wasn't pasted on every related thread, wouldn't it?


The think what would help, is if you could explain how this eternal torment that you propose is not only in line with the way you interpret the bible, but also how it is in line with God's character.

The way that I hear it explained is how God is just, and justice requires payment for wrongs. Therefor, sins that are not repented of require eternal torment.

Explain how that is just?

The payment for our sins was the death of a perfect man. God himself payed that. Right?

So why is it then that payment for unbelievers sins is eternal torment?

If believers sins are covered through the death of Christ, but God requires unbelievers to suffer endlessly, then why is not Christ still suffering endlessly for our sins? It's one or the other the way I see it.

How can God require us to forgive our enemies sins endlessly, when He Himself has a limit? Not only does He say forgive then forgive, but even says that we should do good to them in response to their evil acts.

Does God require something of us that He can't do?

I'd be much sooner to believe that someone was eternally put out of existence, than to believe they suffer a horrible firey torment FOREVER and EVER.

Can you even explain this in a way that shows you have knowledge of His character without cutting and pasting the same thing over and over? Lay the bible down, and show that you have a knowledge of God's character in your heart in your own words.

One more thought. Would you ever reach a limit with your dog if he was disobedient? Could you reach a point that whenever you seen him you beat him until all the strength was out of you. Then beat him some more? What would be the point if you weren't trying to teach him something? To correct his behavior.

Compared to God, aren't we just as foolish as dogs compared to us?

Either "Calvary Covers It All" or it doesn't. Ya can't have it both ways.



.

 

[HuntingMan]

Sheesh, HuntingMan. You went to all that trouble to type out that lengthy reply. Would be a shame if it wasn't pasted on every related thread, wouldn't it?

The ONLY important issue here is that the READERS of these thread get to see the actual evidence for themselves.
If I have to post that evidence everywhere, so be it. Or are you just wanting your own view to be shown and hide what the opposition has to say ?

The think what would help, is if you could explain how this eternal torment that you propose is not only in line with the way you interpret the bible, but also how it is in line with God's character.

PUHlease.
IF I give MY interpretation someone just tells me Im pushing my own agenda.. no thanks.
I dont need to get into some nonsense philosophical debate to see the evidence and understand what it says and means.

The way that I hear it explained is how God is just, and justice requires payment for wrongs. Therefor, sins that are not repented of require eternal torment.

Explain how that is just?

The payment for our sins was the death of a perfect man. God himself payed that. Right?

So why is it then that payment for unbelievers sins is eternal torment?

If believers sins are covered through the death of Christ, but God requires unbelievers to suffer endlessly, then why is not Christ still suffering endlessly for our sins? It's one or the other the way I see it.

How can God require us to forgive our enemies sins endlessly, when He Himself has a limit? Not only does He say forgive then forgive, but even says that we should do good to them in response to their evil acts.

Does God require something of us that He can't do?

I'd be much sooner to believe that someone was eternally put out of existence, than to believe they suffer a horrible firey torment FOREVER and EVER.

Can you even explain this in a way that shows you have knowledge of His character without cutting and pasting the same thing over and over? Lay the bible down, and show that you have a knowledge of God's character in your heart in your own words.

One more thought. Would you ever reach a limit with your dog if he was disobedient? Could you reach a point that whenever you seen him you beat him until all the strength was out of you. Then beat him some more? What would be the point if you weren't trying to teach him something? To correct his behavior.

Compared to God, aren't we just as foolish as dogs compared to us?

And there you go...the fallible human mind trying to REASON its way out of what Gods word shows as fact.

 

[HuntingMan]

I don't believe Scripture says humans will suffer forever. The list of Scriptures that suggest otherwise is too long to post here, but you can find them -- as well as other items relating to this issue -- at a site I maintain pertaining to the ultimate redemption of all here.

.

VERY convenient that you make a claim but dont present evidence.
*I* took the time to at least put something together to support MY claims...yet we're just supposed to take your word for it ?

 

[Rajni]

VERY convenient that you make a claim but dont present evidence.
*I* took the time to at least put something together to support MY claims...yet we're just supposed to take your word for it ?

You didn't click on the link? The evidence is only a click away.
CF does have a limit on how long the posts here can be. The list of Scriptures would take up at least 3 posts; I've done it before. Much easier to just go to the page I've got highlighted for your convenience.


.

 

[HuntingMan]

You didn't click on the link? The evidence is only a click away.
CF does have a limit on how long the posts here can be. The list of Scriptures would take up at least 3 posts; I've done it before. Much easier to just go to the page I've got highlighted for your convenience.


.

And when I look at it, do you think there is some new revelation there that we havent seen in threads like this on a thousand others just like it ?

I may end up looking at it just so I can pick it apart and post the refutation to the nonsense viewpoint here on this site and on my own website.

 

[IchoozJC]

The ONLY important issue here is that the READERS of these thread get to see the actual evidence for themselves.
If I have to post that evidence everywhere, so be it. Or are you just wanting your own view to be shown and hide what the opposition has to say ?

This sounds very arrogant to me, sorry. And very wrong in your assumptions of my motives, too.

PUHlease.
IF I give MY interpretation someone just tells me Im pushing my own agenda.. no thanks.
I dont need to get into some nonsense philosophical debate to see the evidence and understand what it says and means.

Have I ever said that to you? Don't bother checking, I know I haven't.

And there you go...the fallible human mind trying to REASON its way out of what Gods word shows as fact.

You are right in half of what you said. Yes, HuntingMan, my mind IS fallible. I would bet my hard earned money that every argument ever posted on this website is fallible. That's why there are hundreds of threads on the same issues, because we ARE fallible and therefore it takes more than one man copying and pasting the same argument over and over. For one, if it's not done in LOVE then it is pointless, right? Sorry, but I don't feel much love flowing from your posts, brother. Maybe you need to take a break from the boards and cool down. It can happen to anyone of us when we get to tangled in trying to get OUR point across.

But you are wrong when you assume that I am trying to reason my way OUT of what God's word shows. Quite the contrary. I am not on these boards to fill a commission by God to debate with anyone who opposes me. I am here very selfishly. To learn.

Lay the sword down Peter, and reason with your brothers and sisters.

 

[Rajni]

And when I look at it, do you think there is some new revelation there that we havent seen in threads like this on a thousand others just like it ?

Seems that's the same sentiment expressed about that cut-and-paste posting you keep re-submitting.

I may end up looking at it just so I can pick it apart and post the refutation to the nonsense viewpoint here on this site and on my own website.

But of course! That is, after all, the nature of The Beast.


.

 

[HuntingMan]

Yup, took about 8 seconds to browse....not a single thing there that nullifies the fact that Jesus Christ said that there will be a resurrection where some go into life and others go into condemnation.

 

[HuntingMan]

This sounds very arrogant to me, sorry.

Irrelevant.

Have I ever said that to you? Don't bother checking, I know I haven't.

I dont remember saying that YOU said it

You are right in half of what you said. Yes, HuntingMan, my mind IS fallible. I would bet my hard earned money that every argument ever posted on this website is fallible. That's why there are hundreds of threads on the same issues, because we ARE fallible and therefore it takes more than one man copying and pasting the same argument over and over. For one, if it's not done in LOVE then it is pointless, right? Sorry, but I don't feel much love flowing from your posts, brother. Maybe you need to take a break from the boards and cool down. It can happen to anyone of us when we get to tangled in trying to get OUR point across.

But you are wrong when you assume that I am trying to reason my way OUT of what God's word shows. Quite the contrary. I am not on these boards to fill a commission by God to debate with anyone who opposes me. I am here very selfishly. To learn.

Lay the sword down Peter, and reason with your brothers and sisters.

Most of what this viewpoint presents is nothing but mans reasoning over the CLEAR evidence from the overall word of God.

 

[HuntingMan]

Seems that's the same sentiment expressed about that cut-and-paste posting you keep re-submitting.

please...one of you just quoted the SAME long post a few times here. Im hardly the only one guilty of that sort of thing.

 

[seeker777]

Can you even explain this in a way that shows you have knowledge of His character without cutting and pasting the same thing over and over? Lay the bible down, and show that you have a knowledge of God's character in your heart in your own words.

Some people are incapable of their own thoughts on any issue related to God. I couldn't agree with you more.

One more thought. Would you ever reach a limit with your dog if he was disobedient? Could you reach a point that whenever you seen him you beat him until all the strength was out of you. Then beat him some more? What would be the point if you weren't trying to teach him something? To correct his behavior.

Your example illustrates perfectly the problem with God somehow allowing his creation ( man) to suffer eternal torment in Hell.

Not only are you keeping your dog in a constant state of pain, but you also have hooked your dog up to life support to assure that your dog does not perspire, all so you can continue keeping your dog in eternal agony at the hands of a truly evil man, and all for mis-deeds.

Compared to God, aren't we just as foolish as dogs compared to us?

The belief that God allows for his children to suffer for eternity in absolute agony, is an absolute contradiction of what the Bible says of Gods character, ' God is love.'

 

[Rajni]

Yup, took about 8 seconds to browse....not a single thing there that nullifies the fact that Jesus Christ said that there will be a resurrection where some go into life and others go into condemnation.

That's the conclusion you came to, and so quickly? I'm absolutely shocked.

.

 

[HuntingMan]

That's the conclusion you came to, and so quickly? I'm absolutely shocked.

.

Oh please ....the whole page was nothing but verses ripped out of context and in no way nullified any about eternal condemnation.

 

[Tavita]

The belief that God allows for his children to suffer for eternity in absolute agony, is an absolute contradiction of what the Bible says of Gods character, ' God is love.'

You're absolutely right about that!

There is no way that a human being could withstand endless punishment, it just can't be done, we are too weak and couldn't withstand it without going absolutely insane. You only need to look at Alcatraz to see what it can do to a man, and that was only for what?.. twenty, thirty years? So do we think it's in God's purpose and in His character to have 90% (rough guess) of the world's population sitting in some little corner of the spiritual universe somewhere going totally insane and being insane endlessly? Wow! I sometimes wonder if people really think this through. They would rather believe that in their carnal understanding of who God is than to actually think about how much God loves ALL mankind... to the the point He sent His son to die for them. There should be punishment, for sure, but God ALWAYS punishes for a reason and a purpose.. and that purpose is to bring correction and to purify... it is a major theme of scripture that God punishes to bring us back to Himself and to His ways.

 

[HuntingMan]

Originally Posted by seeker777 View Post

The belief that God allows for his children to suffer for eternity in absolute agony, is an absolute contradiction of what the Bible says of Gods character, ' God is love.'

Nothing but an argument from fallible human reasoning.
God is love..and God is ALSO Judge.

Seems that we want the big cuddly teddy bear god and cant accept that He IS a JUDGE.

 

[Tavita]

Nothing but an argument from fallible human reasoning.
God is love..and God is ALSO Judge.

Seems that we want the big cuddly teddy bear god and cant accept that He IS a JUDGE.

Who said He wasn't JUDGE as well as LOVE?

His attribute of Love includes justice and mercy.