Eternal punishment vs eternal life

[contratodo]

So, does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?

Yes.
".......wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever"
Jude 1:7-13

"outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers, and idolaters,
and whoever loves and practices a lie"
Revelation 22:15

"who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
Isaiah 33:14

I do not think it is equal torment, it is personal and based on what each person deserves.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

New International Version, Matthew 25:


Do these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what does it mean?

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:


Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:


Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:


Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

Pulpit Commentary:


There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

This is just a thought, but is it not more likely that when the writers are using the word "Eternal or Eternity" they are simply using a form of hyperbole (exaggeration)?

The reason I ask is because God is the only eternal being in existence.

First off, to be eternal means, not only will you never die, but you would never have had a beginning, either. For just as you can go eternally forward, you must be able to go eternally backwards. For this reason alone, it is impossible for God to create an eternal being. Since to be created is to have a beginning.

Secondly, to be eternal, by it's very nature, means there is no potential or possibility of death. If there was, then death would simply be just a matter of time.

It is more accurate to say that we were given the potential for everlasting life. The reason I say 'potential' is because we never had everlasting life from the start. This was completely dependent upon eating from the tree of life. And, just like being eternal, to have everlasting life means there is no potential or possibility of death. So, if we had everlasting life right from the start, then sin would have been powerless to take life. This seems to be a major contradiction within mainstream christian theology.

We never had everlasting life, and sin did not bring about physical death.
This is clearly seen in Gen. 3:22. If sin ultimately leads to physical death, then it would be impossible for the tree of life to give everlasting life to a sinful being when death is the ultimate outcome.

I seem to be getting of topic.....

When we choose to believe and enter into a relationship with Jesus, we are again given the potential for everlasting life.

So......

Theoretically then, is it not possible that should you choose not to eat from the tree of life, you would simply perish? A choice given to us by God and made possible by freewill. Not that anyone would ever choose not to eat from the tree of life after having experienced the love of God. And, should you enter the afterlife having never accepted God's salvation, access to the tree of life would no longer be possible. Inevitably, leading to the second death? Which, I believe, lines up with your Pulpit Commentary.

 

[tonychanyt]

This is just a thought, but is it not more likely that when the writers are using the word "Eternal or Eternity" they are simply using a form of hyperbole (exaggeration)?

They could but not always. See Three Greek words related to eternal

 

[CoreyD]

I see what you mean. But if you've been annihilated, you can't be enduring the punishment eternally - after annihilation there would be no "you".

Our loved ones are gone, but we remember them.
In the mind of the living, a person that is gone, is remembered.

In the case of those annihilated forever, that is a punishment that lasts forever, and cannot be erased. As in the case of Satan the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet, they receive the penalty / torment / punishment, forever. Revelation 20:10

There are two questions that can help.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment"?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

 

[David Lamb]

Our loved ones are gone, but we remember them.
In the mind of the living, a person that is gone, is remembered.

In the case of those annihilated forever, that is a punishment that lasts forever, and cannot be erased. As in the case of Satan the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet, they receive the penalty / torment / punishment, forever. Revelation 20:10

There are two questions that can help.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment"?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

If they are not suffering the punishment, then as far as they are concerned, their punishment ends with their death. The bible teaches otherwise. For example in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man, after death, speaks:

“23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 "But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” (Lu 16:23-25 NKJV)

He was certainly enduring punishment. I don't know what you mean by the wild beast which is not a person or animal. I cannot find a bible reference to this.

 

[St_Worm2]

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment"?

Hello Corey, I saw that the following passage has been mentioned in this thread, but I'd like to look at it again.

Revelation 14​

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, ​

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ​

11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”​

This passage seems to say that the Lake of Fire will be occupied by many more than Satan, the Antichrist (or Beast) and the False Prophet, that it will also be occupied by the unbelieving, and that for the balance of eternity.

What say you?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

New International Version, Matthew 25:


Do these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what does it mean?

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:


Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:


Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:


Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

Pulpit Commentary:


There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

Most believers don't have issues with Satan and his messengers having eternal punishment.

I'd suggest some caution is in order when dissecting any term in the Bible.

Just the term "dead" for example should definitely not be understood as we commonly think. We can see "the dead" doing activities in the N.T. as to how Jesus saw the matters, and even we are considered "dead," and our life "hid," Col. 3:3

When it comes to Satan and his "seed" these are an entity class obviously much different than our view of people for example. Yet these "agents," these antiChrist spirits occupy and tempt and deceive mankind, so scriptures show us they "operate" within mankind, are revealed in mankind, are spoken to in mankind and are sometimes tossed out of mankind. This factor alone, if not incorporated into our scripture reading leaves us all void of complete understanding.

In my eyes, somewhat understanding of the above, I would see me, the person, the child of God, whoever that really is, I don't know and haven't "experienced" that yet in full, would be reaped back to God, my technical father, and the tempter, whatever that is in my own flesh, gets the permanent boot.

In other words both sides of these equations of God's Direct Words do apply to all of us, not just the parts we happen to like

 

[CoreyD]

If they are not suffering the punishment, then as far as they are concerned, their punishment ends with their death. The bible teaches otherwise. For example in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man, after death, speaks:

“23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 "But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” (Lu 16:23-25 NKJV)

He was certainly enduring punishment. I don't know what you mean by the wild beast which is not a person or animal. I cannot find a bible reference to this.

You did not answer my questions David.
Instead you simply switch to an appeal to an argument that a parable must be referring to what people believe, when I am sure you know that a parable is using symbolism, regardless of if what is symbolic is known.

For example, Jesus used seed, birds, thorns, etc., in his parables, to symbolize something, but Jesus was not talking about seed, birds, thorns, etc.
Likewise, the rich man, Lazarus, Hades, fire, torment, water, chasm, etc., are all symbolic as representing something else.

So, can you please answer my questions. Please.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment", in Matthew 25:46?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever? My apologies... @David Lamb, reference to the wild beast is found in Revelation 20:10, and other verses mentioned here.

We can talk about Jesus' parable afterward, if you like.

 

[CoreyD]

Hello Corey, I saw that the following passage has been mentioned in this thread, but I'd like to look at it again.

Revelation 14​

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, ​

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ​

11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”​

This passage seems to say that the Lake of Fire will be occupied by many more than Satan, the Antichrist (or Beast) and the False Prophet, that it will also be occupied by the unbelieving, and that for the balance of eternity.

What say you?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

I'm happy for the question, and a discussion on it, thanks.

I'll like to say what the Bible says, in answer.
Revelation 19:19-21

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.​

20 But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.​

21 And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.​

Revelation 20:10

10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:13-15

13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.​

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.​

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

What we see here, is

1. The lake of fire symbolizes/represents the second death. In other words, the lake of fire, is not a literal lake of fire, but is used to signify "second death". Revelation 20:14
   • Many argue that the first death is spiritual, and the second death is physical death, which would be death for the first time,
     This does not agree with a number of scriptures. One of those scriptures being Revelation 20:6
     Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
     Those mentioned here, tasted physical death - being martyred, and are resurrected to life. Revelation 20:4
     However, not to spend time on that, unless it comes up...
2. The Wild Beast, which is also not literal, but symbolizes/represents the kings/kingdoms of this world. Revelation 17:6-14. This is cast into the symbolic lake of fire, and along with the false prophet, and the Devil, are tormented. Revelation 20:10
3. The false prophet too, is cast into the lake of fire. What does the false prophet symbolize? I'll leave that an open question. Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10
4. Satan the Devil is cast into the lake of fire, and tormented. Revelation. Revelation 20:10
5. Death and Hades also are thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
6. Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life, is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

From this, all having been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this:
The use of symbolism is these verses is clear, and there is no reason to get the idea that anything is suffering eternal torment in an eternal fire.
Rather, these verses give us the final outcome for anything in opposition to God - they being cast into the lake of fire - Gehenna, is proof of total destruction - a complete removal of all that God does not want to exist.

Those things would be -

• Death - an enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26
• Hades - the grave, which will no longer be needed, since death will be no more. Revelation 21:3, 4
• The Wild Beast - all the world's governmental authority. Revelation 13:1-18; Revelation 17:6-18
• The False Prophet - Revelation 16:13; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10
• Those whose name is not in the book of life - Revelation 20:15
• Satan the Devil - Revelation 20:10

What one can ask themselves is,

1. why would the torment and the smoke be literal, when the lake of fire is symbolic? because the angel does not tell us what the smoke and torment signify, does not lead us to conclude we are dealing with fire, because we already passed the stage that the fire is not literal. So why destroy that foundation to build on a doctrine?
2. why would the the Wild Beast, False Prophet, Death, and Hades, be in the second death, if it did not mean final and complete death for them?

...and other questions, but I'll stop there.

What is your response?

 

[David Lamb]

You did not answer my questions David.
Instead you simply switch to an appeal to an argument that a parable must be referring to what people believe, when I am sure you know that a parable is using symbolism, regardless of if what is symbolic is known.

For example, Jesus used seed, birds, thorns, etc., in his parables, to symbolize something, but Jesus was not talking about seed, birds, thorns, etc.
Likewise, the rich man, Lazarus, Hades, fire, torment, water, chasm, etc., are all symbolic as representing something else.

So, can you please answer my questions. Please.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment", in Matthew 25:46?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever? My apologies... @David Lamb, reference to the wild beast is found in Revelation 20:10, and other verses mentioned here.

We can talk about Jesus' parable afterward, if you like.

Sorry for not answering your questions. I will put that omission right now:

1. Whether the bible says that people endure or go away into the punishment, that punishment is described as eternal, everlasting. Also, Jude seems to say that suffering the punishment is everlasting:

“as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7 NKJV)

2. I don't understand your second question. Indeed, I wrote in my previous message: "I don't know what you mean by the wild beast which is not a person or animal. I cannot find a bible reference to this."

 

[CoreyD]

Sorry for not answering your questions. I will put that omission right now:

1. Whether the bible says that people endure or go away into the punishment, that punishment is described as eternal, everlasting. Also, Jude seems to say that suffering the punishment is everlasting:

“as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7 NKJV)

Yes, and we passed that stage with this post, which your response...

I see what you mean. But if you've been annihilated, you can't be enduring the punishment eternally - after annihilation there would be no "you".

I addressed, since the Bible does not say anyone is "enduring the punishment", but rather, go away into it, and I added to the explanation of how one is eternally punished, even though annihilated forever.

Then I offered two question that would help in understanding it even better.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment"?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

The first answer, is, the Bible says they go away into, which does make a difference to enduring the punishment.
Nothing is enduring the punishment, according to the Bible.

2. I don't understand your second question. Indeed, I wrote in my previous message: "I don't know what you mean by the wild beast which is not a person or animal. I cannot find a bible reference to this."

You probably did not look at the scripture I referenced in the first post.
That scripture - Revelation 20:10 - says...

and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Unfortunately, almost every Bible translation ignores the Greek word thérion (θηρίον), which means a wild beast, and they just render it beast. So many readers of the Bible are not familiar with the fact that the term wild beast is actually in the Bible.
You can find some background on the wild beast, in the scriptures I referenced in this post. Those scriptures are... Revelation 13:1-18; Revelation 17:6-18

The wild beast is not a living creature, but a symbol or representation of the kingdoms of this world.
So, my question is...
How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

I'll change up the question, if that will make it simpler.
How are the kingdoms of this world tormented forever?

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, and we passed that stage with this post, which your response...

I addressed, since the Bible does not say anyone is "enduring the punishment", but rather, go away into it, and I added to the explanation of how one is eternally punished, even though annihilated forever.

Then I offered two question that would help in understanding it even better.

1. Does the Bible say persons are enduring the punishment, or does the Bible say they "go away into everlasting punishment"?
2. How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

The first answer, is, the Bible says they go away into, which does make a difference to enduring the punishment.
Nothing is enduring the punishment, according to the Bible.


You probably did not look at the scripture I referenced in the first post.
That scripture - Revelation 20:10 - says...


Unfortunately, almost every Bible translation ignores the Greek word thérion (θηρίον), which means a wild beast, and they just render it beast. So many readers of the Bible are not familiar with the fact that the term wild beast is actually in the Bible.
You can find some background on the wild beast, in the scriptures I referenced in this post. Those scriptures are... Revelation 13:1-18; Revelation 17:6-18

The wild beast is not a living creature, but a symbol or representation of the kingdoms of this world.
So, my question is...
How is the wild beast, which is not a person or animal, but represents political world powers, tormented forever?

I'll change up the question, if that will make it simpler.
How are the kingdoms of this world tormented forever?

Justin Dialogue with Trypho Chap III
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’

 

[Der Alte]

This is just a thought, but is it not more likely that when the writers are using the word "Eternal or Eternity" they are simply using a form of hyperbole (exaggeration)?
The reason I ask is because God is the only eternal being in existence. ***

Using scripture only I can you show that you are mistaken.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T. [2% of total occurrences]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people mistakenly claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Character limit. Continued next post

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]
Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul, Peter and John define/describe “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” , by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition means “forever and forever.”
A final point about “aionios,” which is an adjective. “aionios” cannot be translated as “age” because age is a noun.

 

[Diamond72]

annihilation

The word "annihilation" itself isn't found in the Bible. However, the concept of annihilationism or conditional immortality is discussed in theological circles. This doctrine suggests that the wicked will be completely destroyed rather than enduring eternal punishment. Verses like Matthew 10:28 ("fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell") and Malachi 4:1 ("the day is coming, burning like an oven") are often cited in these discussions.

 

[Der Alte]

The word "annihilation" itself isn't found in the Bible. However, the concept of annihilationism or conditional immortality is discussed in theological circles. This doctrine suggests that the wicked will be completely destroyed rather than enduring eternal punishment. Verses like Matthew 10:28 ("fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell") and Malachi 4:1 ("the day is coming, burning like an oven") are often cited in these discussions.

You are correct Matt 10:28 does say "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." What God created He certainly can destroy but I do not know of a verse which says even one soul ever is or will be destroyed. in hell or anywhere else.

 

[CoreyD]

The word "annihilation" itself isn't found in the Bible. However, the concept of annihilationism or conditional immortality is discussed in theological circles. This doctrine suggests that the wicked will be completely destroyed rather than enduring eternal punishment. Verses like Matthew 10:28 ("fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell") and Malachi 4:1 ("the day is coming, burning like an oven") are often cited in these discussions.

The word annihilate, exterminate, is shamad: to be exterminated or destroyed, and is found in the Hebrew scriptures of the Bible 90 places.

In many of those places, God himself speaks of annihilating, exterminating, destroying the wicked.
One such place is Psalm 92:7

When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever

The Greek equivalent is analiskó: to expend, consume, which is found two places in scripture.

It is God that says he destroys the wicked forever.
Some persons are convinced for some reason, that God will torment persons in a literal everlasting fire, but this is not what the scriptures say. Rather, this is how they interpret the scriptures, which is different to how the scriptures actually are explained.

 

[Der Alte]

The word annihilate, exterminate, is shamad: to be exterminated or destroyed, and is found in the Hebrew scriptures of the Bible 90 places.

In many of those places, God himself speaks of annihilating, exterminating, destroying the wicked.
One such place is Psalm 92:7
The Greek equivalent is analiskó: to expend, consume, which is found two places in scripture.
It is God that says he destroys the wicked forever.
Some persons are convinced for some reason, that God will torment persons in a literal everlasting fire, but this is not what the scriptures say. Rather, this is how they interpret the scriptures, which is different to how the scriptures actually are explained.

IF you only quote one vs. and ignore many other vss. in both the Tanach [O.T] and brit Hadasha.[NT]
See e.g.
Matthew 25:41-46
(41) Then shall he [The Son of Man vs. 31 the king vs. 34] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Diamond72]

Rather, this is how they interpret the scriptures,

This is based on Dante's Trilogy of heaven, hell and purgatory. I prayed about this and the answer God gave me was that He is a God of absolute, perfect and precise Justice. As exact and precise as the universe is. WE all know that math and physics is very exact and very precise. Random does not exist, some things are just too complicated for us to understand.

I would like to be a universalist and would hope everyone would be saved. This would require some sort of purgatory. But I am convinced that God will cleanse His universe and He will not allow any unGodlyness. I am not sure why He allows it now, only we are told that this has to do with Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm happy for the question, and a discussion on it, thanks.

I'll like to say what the Bible says, in answer.
Revelation 19:19-21

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.​

20 But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.​

21 And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.​

Revelation 20:10

10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:13-15

13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.​

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.​

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

What we see here, is

1. The lake of fire symbolizes/represents the second death. In other words, the lake of fire, is not a literal lake of fire, but is used to signify "second death". Revelation 20:14
   • Many argue that the first death is spiritual, and the second death is physical death, which would be death for the first time,
     This does not agree with a number of scriptures. One of those scriptures being Revelation 20:6
     Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
     Those mentioned here, tasted physical death - being martyred, and are resurrected to life. Revelation 20:4
     However, not to spend time on that, unless it comes up...
2. The Wild Beast, which is also not literal, but symbolizes/represents the kings/kingdoms of this world. Revelation 17:6-14. This is cast into the symbolic lake of fire, and along with the false prophet, and the Devil, are tormented. Revelation 20:10
3. The false prophet too, is cast into the lake of fire. What does the false prophet symbolize? I'll leave that an open question. Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10
4. Satan the Devil is cast into the lake of fire, and tormented. Revelation. Revelation 20:10
5. Death and Hades also are thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
6. Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life, is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

From this, all having been heard, the conclusion of the matter is this:
The use of symbolism is these verses is clear, and there is no reason to get the idea that anything is suffering eternal torment in an eternal fire.
Rather, these verses give us the final outcome for anything in opposition to God - they being cast into the lake of fire - Gehenna, is proof of total destruction - a complete removal of all that God does not want to exist.

Those things would be -

• Death - an enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26
• Hades - the grave, which will no longer be needed, since death will be no more. Revelation 21:3, 4
• The Wild Beast - all the world's governmental authority. Revelation 13:1-18; Revelation 17:6-18
• The False Prophet - Revelation 16:13; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10
• Those whose name is not in the book of life - Revelation 20:15
• Satan the Devil - Revelation 20:10

What one can ask themselves is,

1. why would the torment and the smoke be literal, when the lake of fire is symbolic? because the angel does not tell us what the smoke and torment signify, does not lead us to conclude we are dealing with fire, because we already passed the stage that the fire is not literal. So why destroy that foundation to build on a doctrine?
2. why would the the Wild Beast, False Prophet, Death, and Hades, be in the second death, if it did not mean final and complete death for them?

...and other questions, but I'll stop there.

What is your response?

My take away from this post is we can dismiss virtually everything in the Bible as symbolic not literal.