Eternal Life under Sinai?

V37

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I'm puzzling the term aiōnios zōē (eternal life). Sinai understood that Yahweh’s kingdom was eternal (aiōnios: Dan.4:3), that Yahweh was (Is.26:4), and that she was Yahweh’s kingdom (Ex.19:6). Yet she was at best a prophetic shadow, hence kingdom member Nicodemus could neither see nor enter the true kingdom unless born anew (Jhn.3:3). I accept that those under Sinai were neither regenerate nor had Yahweh’s spirit indwelling as individuals – they were not his children although corporately they were his child (Hos.11:1). Yeshuism introduced spiritual birth/regeneration, individual siblingship, etc. And I accept two basic definitions of eternal life: one as immediate (Jhn.17:3) and the other as postmortem (ultimate). My question is, is there any evidence that eternal life (not simply blessings) existed under Sinai in any way that it did not among the goyim?
 

V37

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On the other hand, even in the shadow blessing from the Eternal allowed David to be a man after Yahweh's own heart. If immediate life now is fellowship at a divine father/brother level (Jhn.17:3) - defined as 'eternal life' - might not the likes of David have enjoyed eternal life at a lower Yahweh level - lower in the sense of less light, not of Yahweh being lower than Yeshua, but as 'Yahweh' taken as monopersonal rather than tripersonal (Mt.28:19)?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi the LORD made man in His image and all men are given an eternal soul. At the great white throne we see those not written in the Lamb's book of life being sent into the lake of fire forever. Abraham b3elieved God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness is showing the old testament saints were also saved by faith. David committed adultery and murder and in the law he was supposed to be stoned to death. His prayer of repentance in psalm 51 shows that God looks at your heart and as Isaiah 1 shows a sacrifice was nothing without repentance.
Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;[fn]
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Jesus when he dismissed His spirit descended into Abraham's bosom and shared the gospel there and then they were freed from there. I assume they were born again there as their faith like Abraham was accounted to them for righteousness.


Finally the kingdom of God is an eternal kingdom but Christ has not yet taken reign over planter earth. Dan 2 describes the transfer of the kingdom as the stone cut without hands descending and crushing the kingdoms of man grinding them to powder and leaving no trace of them then the stone covers the earth and is a kingdom that will not end. Satan tempted Jesus showing Him all the kingdoms of the world at a time and offered them to Jesus if he would bow to Satan. In Rev we see the decree go out the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdom of our LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever. Rev 20 shows a 1000 year kingdom coming on earth and this kingdom extends to the new Jerusalem and is the kingdom that will have no end. Read Zech 14 to see the 2nd coming presented in the old testament. It says in that day the LORD is king over all the earth and is a remarkable day. It shows the LORD coming with his saints and establishing rule and a clear continuation of events on earth after He is declared king over all the earth.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I'm puzzling the term aiōnios zōē (eternal life). Sinai understood that Yahweh’s kingdom was eternal (aiōnios: Dan.4:3), that Yahweh was (Is.26:4), and that she was Yahweh’s kingdom (Ex.19:6). Yet she was at best a prophetic shadow, hence kingdom member Nicodemus could neither see nor enter the true kingdom unless born anew (Jhn.3:3). I accept that those under Sinai were neither regenerate nor had Yahweh’s spirit indwelling as individuals – they were not his children although corporately they were his child (Hos.11:1). Yeshuism introduced spiritual birth/regeneration, individual siblingship, etc. And I accept two basic definitions of eternal life: one as immediate (Jhn.17:3) and the other as postmortem (ultimate). My question is, is there any evidence that eternal life (not simply blessings) existed under Sinai in any way that it did not among the goyim?

The promises to the nation Israel are promises for this world. Eternal life (not simply blessings in this world) is always by the new birth.
 
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V37

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Fine Brian, I accept unconditional immortality, ultimate life (UL)/damnation, that UL was accessible pre-cross (both pre-Sinai (Abraham) & Sinai (David)), and that mechanical sacrifice without faith was spiritually futile.

I don’t agree the descensus bit (Karen Jobes’s 1 Peter) tackles that well, and Augustine didn’t dig it either: but let’s skip that bit. Nor do I dig the ‘born again’ expression – believe it goes back to Nicodemus, not Jesus: but let’s skip this bit to to focus on my question. For however we translate the Greek of Jhn.3, that bit could answer my question if you could prove it rather than simply “assume they were” born anew. Sinaitic prophecies seem to me to have spoken of new birth as a then-future phenomenon, ie it began with the cross.

What I’m still looking for is chapter/verse evidence of a Sinaitic doctrine of some level of eternal life pre-existing the cross and specific to Sinai: UL I deem was intrinsically accessible and thus not specific to Sinai. Immediate Life (IL) is evangel-only accessible and thus specific to the church (Jhn.14:6). So, put specifically, did Sinai have eternal life in any shape, shape, or form in the days of David, that Australian Aboriginals did not have?
 
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V37

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Paul of Eugene, thanks, but it's not then-future promises I'm looking for, but then-then eternal life as unique to Sinai - if it existed. I divide the idea, eternal life, into at least into two dimensions, immediate and ultimate, and pace Calvin discounting new birth as an option in Abraham & Jeremiah's days, take ultimate life (UL) to be delivered other than by new birth (Mt.8:11). The immediate life dimension (Jhn.6:54; 17:3) Jesus spoke of was delivered only via the evangel by the cross after the cross. He did speak as if it pre-existed (still limited to believing in 'him' rather than his 'day'), but surely the option to eat his flesh and drink his blood was only explicable symbolically after the cross?
 
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V37

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Robert Stein (BECNT: Mark, 2014) points out that in Mk. (9:45 (‘to enter into life’) and 47 (‘to enter the kingdom of God’)) and Jhn. (3:3,5 and 3:15-6) entering the kingdom of God and inheriting eternal life are…understood as synonyms. With this heads up, it seems to me that the rich young ruler was asking how to inherit kingdom life, which in light of Mk.1:15 would be the expected messianic kingdom: following Jesus there and then would have put him on his way to being born into that kingdom once Jesus had risen (cf. Jhn.1:12’s “to become” for precrucifixion believers). Jhn.5:39 would thus mean that the Pharisees believed that they were already in God’s true kingdom, hence they rejected the Baptist, hence they rejected Yeshua, hence they apparently believed they had eternal life along the lines of Torah-kingdom life beyond the riffraff, and as Rabbi Hillel affirmed (Pirqe Avot 2.7)—unlike the Sadducees’ belief—beyond death. Jesus denied their pipedream. All in all, it seems to me that biblically eternal life began by the cross and subsequent to the cross: crux necessaria est. But I’d still like to know of any traces of it that were before the cross and inaccessible to mankind at large.
 
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Ron Gurley

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PLEASE DEFINE "SINAI"...."GOYIM"

The Abramic Nations? The NON-Abramic Nations?

Genesis 1:26 (NASB)...the spirit of the TRU-UNE GOD
26 Then God said, “Let US make man(KIND) in OUR (SPIRITUAL) image, according to OUR (CHARACTER) likeness;

Man's is SPIRIT is IMMORTAL.

God judges all SPIRITS.
For BELIEVERS, spiritual POSITION is not judged.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die ( Body/Soul combo) once and after this comes judgment,(of eternal immortal SPIRITS)

Man's SPIRIT returns to God who gave it for that JUDGMENT.

Jesus the God-Man's Spirit was "committed". His Body / Soul combo bled to death.
After many VISIBLE appearances post-resurrection, His "spirit body" ascended.
Man's Body/Soul dies, but his SPIRIT either dwells with or is separated from God...
....eternal life in the heavenly realms for believers.
...eternal life in the "lake of fire" for UNbelievers.

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH, SPIRIT returns to God
Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;...
For man goes to his ETERNAL home while mourners go about in the street....
7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Zechariah 12:1 ...
Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

It is all about SPIRIT !!
 
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V37

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Ron: I've used ‘Sinai’ to mean ‘Sinaitic Covenant’, and ‘Goyim’ to mean non-Ethnic Israelites. The latter has other OT use, even significant, yet such being a minor theme I have taken the liberty of using goyim in its major sense. There is of course no triune god (polytheism), though God is triune (tripersonal monotheism), and your citations from Is./Zc. drop God’s name, Yahweh—should you not at least use Tyndale’s LORD method, as does the NASU? However, some of what you say is not germane to my question, and whether agreeing, disagreeing, or qualifying, I shall pass over without comment—I hope you will not mind. And with you I bypass annihilationism.

I do not see the way forward in a forced trichotomism. Scripture often uses soul/spirit interchangeably, and also mixes in similar expressions (eg heart, soul, mind & strength (Mk.12:30)). If 1 Ths.5:23 was a phrase of conscious systematic theology, should we on the basis of Ec.3:21, wish that animals be sanctified and kept blameless in body, soul, & spirit, until Christ’s return, since they too have ‘spirits’, the highest element of life? I could argue that if the soul that is sinful shall die, the soul of the righteous shall live (nefesh: Ezk.18:4); that peoples’ souls (psuchē) are saved at death (Jas.5:20); that even Yahweh has a soul (nefesh: Ps.11:5). Scripture often uses terms in varying ways—we all do. Soul (nefesh) sometimes refers to an inner aspect, sometimes as a contrast between the perishable and imperishable, sometimes of individuals. ‘Eternal life’ likewise has variations of meaning.

All this aside, “it’s all about spirit” is an argument for what I call ultimate life, ie life beyond the grave when our bodies (sōma) are redeemed (Rm.8:23) and the mortal puts on immortality. What I’m asking for is any evidence of eternal life in OT days as something that Ethnic Israel alone could access. If you can pinpoint such evidence, I would be indebted. Blessings.
 
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V37

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SP, that's kinda my question, howbeit I'd look to the Tanak to be more comprehensive, and while I take it it had eternal life (as ultimate life) as an underlying theme (refs to postmortal consciousness; some inkling in Dn.12:2), did it define Sinaitic life (or even earlier) as Eternal life? Messiah defined Yeshuic life/covenant as Eternal life (eg Jhn.17:3), a mortal fellowship with the Eternal as family members. Would the mortal life of Abel, Abraham, or Aaron, be eternal in that kinda sense?
 
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Steve Petersen

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SP, that's kinda my question, howbeit I'd look to the Tanak to be more comprehensive, and while I take it it had eternal life (as ultimate life) as an underlying theme (refs to postmortal consciousness; some inkling in Dn.12:2), did it define Sinaitic life (or even earlier) as Eternal life? Messiah defined Yeshuic life/covenant as Eternal life (eg Jhn.17:3), a mortal fellowship with the Eternal as family members. Would the mortal life of Abel, Abraham, or Aaron, be eternal in that kinda sense?

The way I see it, the Torah contains the origin story of the nation of Israel. This nation was given a constitution (the Law) to insure its survival. The purpose of the nation of Israel is to bring the knowledge of God to the world (see Deut. 4)
 
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Ron Gurley

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John 6:63
It is (God) the (Holy) Spirit who gives (eternal spiritual) life; the flesh (Body/Soul combo) profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are (eternal spiritual) life.

Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it (Body/Soul combo)
And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Zechariah 12:1B
Thus declares the Lord
who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,(Body/Soul combo)

Psalm 139:13
For You formed my inward parts; (Body/Soul combo)
You wove me (SPIRIT + BODY + SOUL) in my mother’s womb.

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (SEE: Genesis 2:7)
and the SPIRIT (ruwach)(breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (SEE: Genesis 1:26 SPIRITUAL image)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity

A&E (and all of their offspring) were created with an immortal SPIRIT (ruwach/pneuma) "housed" in a mortal Body (soma/sarx) / Soul (nephesh /psyche) combo.

The animal kingdom has no spirit nor soul....only Body + Instincts.
 
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V37

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SP, "see" is a powerful word - what we see is realty, since we cannot see nonreality. I think the claim of sight is justified apropos "the origin story of the nation of Israel" - I deem Kenneth Kitchen persuasive. Yet IMO Ethnic Israel had but hasn’t a divine mission. That’s something you could read in “Israel’s Gone Global” (2013), but not on track here.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Paul of Eugene, thanks, but it's not then-future promises I'm looking for, but then-then eternal life as unique to Sinai - if it existed. I divide the idea, eternal life, into at least into two dimensions, immediate and ultimate, and pace Calvin discounting new birth as an option in Abraham & Jeremiah's days, take ultimate life (UL) to be delivered other than by new birth (Mt.8:11). The immediate life dimension (Jhn.6:54; 17:3) Jesus spoke of was delivered only via the evangel by the cross after the cross. He did speak as if it pre-existed (still limited to believing in 'him' rather than his 'day'), but surely the option to eat his flesh and drink his blood was only explicable symbolically after the cross?

Eternal life is always granted us sinful mortals exactly the same way spiritually, but it is explained to us in various ways at various times. One way of describing it is to call it being "born again". Another way to describe it is to say "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Another way to describe it is to say
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "

Another way to describe it is to say

"And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God? "

All of these are attempts to describe one and the same spiritual thing, each description emphasizing a different aspect of the salvation experience.
 
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V37

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Paul, thankyou for replying.

I happily agree that conversion has various images to describe it: eg born anew (not ‘again’), believing in Jesus, Jhn.6 (expressions are aorist so rightly (yourself) not the eucharist, besides the differences between ‘flesh’ & ‘body’).

However, Mic.6:8 (NASU) is towards Yahweh's covenant people (nonconversion), whereas the NT examples are of conversion (becoming new covenant people). It’s what I deem a category error, mixing apples and oranges.

Ezekiel & Jeremiah among others spoke of a new covenant (some upgrade), and the OT lacks (IMO) the ideas of regeneration/indwelling to such an extent that Calvin simply had to resort to saying they must have been regenerated/indwelt to have had spiritual perseverance. I side with Luther (and Walvoord) that the evidence simply isn't there—they weren’t individually indwelt. They had more of God that the other peoples, a Yahweh-through-Moses relationship: the goyim had an elohim-only level of contact. Nowadays we have a Yahweh-through-Yeshua relationship. Simplifying, we could call these Levels 1 (Goyim), Level 2 (Sinaitic), Level 3 (Yeshuic). Eternal life as Ultimate life (pie in the sky) I deem can subside at any level, but was Eternal life as Immediate life (steak on the plate) something that came in with, or pre-existed, messiah? Jhn.14:17 indicates the step up from L2 (with you) to L3 (in you): D A Carson is good.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Paul, thankyou for replying.

I happily agree that conversion has various images to describe it: eg born anew (not ‘again’), believing in Jesus, Jhn.6 (expressions are aorist so rightly (yourself) not the eucharist, besides the differences between ‘flesh’ & ‘body’).

However, Mic.6:8 (NASU) is towards Yahweh's covenant people (nonconversion), whereas the NT examples are of conversion (becoming new covenant people). It’s what I deem a category error, mixing apples and oranges.

Ezekiel & Jeremiah among others spoke of a new covenant (some upgrade), and the OT lacks (IMO) the ideas of regeneration/indwelling to such an extent that Calvin simply had to resort to saying they must have been regenerated/indwelt to have had spiritual perseverance. I side with Luther (and Walvoord) that the evidence simply isn't there—they weren’t individually indwelt. They had more of God that the other peoples, a Yahweh-through-Moses relationship: the goyim had an elohim-only level of contact. Nowadays we have a Yahweh-through-Yeshua relationship. Simplifying, we could call these Levels 1 (Goyim), Level 2 (Sinaitic), Level 3 (Yeshuic). Eternal life as Ultimate life (pie in the sky) I deem can subside at any level, but was Eternal life as Immediate life (steak on the plate) something that came in with, or pre-existed, messiah? Jhn.14:17 indicates the step up from L2 (with you) to L3 (in you): D A Carson is good.

Micah 6:8 has to apply to the individual in relation to God. It declares right there that it contains essentially all a person ever could need in terms of spiritual advice.

Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?
NASU

For the Lord to require more, would be unfair, having already declared this is enough.

However, it is true that the Lord has enlarged the understanding of mankind as to what is involved in walking humbly with Him.

The OT lacks understanding of heaven and the life to come; it speaks of such things vaguely. The covenant God gave Israel was an earthly covenant; Israel is an earthly people; the descendants of Abraham he was promised were, and are, mortal humans; any individual Jew may, or may not, enter into eternal life depending on their spiritual relationship with God in exactly the same way as any individual Gentile. But God used the nation of Israel as the cradle for our Savior.

John 4:22
salvation is from the Jews.
NASU

So as I understand it, salvation has ever been exactly the same spiritually, but the understanding of salvation has differed from age to age.
 
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V37

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Paul, as said, Mic.6:8 is to Ethnic Israel (v2): its individuals sure, but the already-in-peoplehood-covenant individuals. Although more a people than a person thing, it’s otherwise kinda like the Paternoster—though it would be precarious to say either were/are to the Lord.

I 1# agree re. vagueness; 2# would never argue for a covenant god re. Ethnic Israel; 3# ‘Israel’ has at least 4 meanings; 4# of Abraham’s descendants (all except one) are IMO either mortal or deceased, but not immortal in bodily sense, and 5# agree that Sinai was an earthly covenant—indeed is there any other kind? We roughly agree.

‘Jew’ I would qualify (eg ethnic/spiritual/dual), though of these three only the ethnic sort (as had also been with ethnic Israelites) may enter into eternal life. In short, I think we agree that if eternal life had ever been a unique quality for Ethnic Israel/Judah, it’s doesn’t exactly jump out at us. Salvation has indeed come from the ethnic Jews, though not from Judaism. I like your use of ‘cradle’:) Salvation has difference from age to age.
 
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