Eternal Hell NOT Biblical

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JPD

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Is the doctrine of "eternal Punishment?" in any way scriptural? Not according to some Bible scholars.

"Eternity" as a philosophical construct, seems to be redundant as far as the Hebrew and Greek texts are concerned. Where does that leave "HELL" then, considering the following:

"The Bible has no expression for endlessness. All the Biblical terms imply or denote long periods." Professor Herman Oldhausen

"The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES." Professor Knappe

"I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited." Dr. Edward Plumptre - eschatologist.


These views have serious consequences for ANY doctrine based upon the English translations of the Bible texts. As Christians, what are we failing to see here?...

J.D.
 

andreha

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Is the doctrine of "eternal Punishment?" in any wayscriptural? Not according to some Bible scholars.

"Eternity" as a philosophical construct, seems to be redundant as far as the Hebrew and Greek texts are concerned. Where does that leave "HELL" then, considering the following:

"The Bible has no expression for endlessness. All the Biblical terms imply or denote long periods." Professor Herman Oldhausen

"The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES." Professor Knappe

"I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited." Dr. Edward Plumptre - eschatologist.


These views have serious consequences for ANY doctrine based upon the English translations of the Bible texts. As Christians, what are we failing to see here?...

J.D.

Interesting point...

Me, I'd rather err on the side of safety. See, if the for ever and ever part is changed to age and age, or even age after age. Depending on the translation, one could come up with an age, or 2 ages - but the concept of "age after age" could very well point to eternity, which I think is hard to rule out altogether.

Thoughts?
 
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JPD

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It is my understanding, that there is no possible way to make ANY scripture to fit the modern idea of "eternity." There are sound reasons for this it seems; Regard the following verses where "aion" (age) (translated "eternal" in most Bibles) are used.

The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity… (1Co. 2:6-8)

Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).


Maybe the scholars are right - just doesn't make sense. It's use defies the laws of language.

J.D.
 
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x141

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I believe as well that to be damned can be put in a more proper persepective in these two passages.

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It's more about the fact that we judge something either to be a left or a right, good or evil, blessing or cursing and therefore fulfill our own judgment in ourselves. We become the measure that we have met.
 
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gasman64

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Interesting point...

Me, I'd rather err on the side of safety. See, if the for ever and ever part is changed to age and age, or even age after age. Depending on the translation, one could come up with an age, or 2 ages - but the concept of "age after age" could very well point to eternity, which I think is hard to rule out altogether.

Thoughts?

:cool:

It is my understanding that aion of the aions means 'age of the ages'. In the dictionary eternal means 'unchanging'. But according to my knowledge the bible covers 5 ages. Each age encompassing it's own theme and properties and operations. Each age being different but adding another chapter to the story as a whole. Each age has changes. No age is eternal in or of itself.
I also have issue with the english translation of 'aion' also used to mean the 'world'. How can one word be translated to mean so many different things and keep it's correct meaning. It simply can't.
 
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andreha

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:cool:

It is my understanding that aion of the aions means 'age of the ages'. In the dictionary eternal means 'unchanging'. But according to my knowledge the bible covers 5 ages. Each age encompassing it's own theme and properties and operations. Each age being different but adding another chapter to the story as a whole. Each age has changes. No age is eternal in or of itself.
I also have issue with the english translation of 'aion' also used to mean the 'world'. How can one word be translated to mean so many different things and keep it's correct meaning. It simply can't.

That's the thing with translation - one has to have an intimate knowledge of the original language, the history, the intended audience and so on.

Addressing the OP - technically, Hell is not eternal. It's actually unbiblical to say that it is. See Rev 20:14 - (KJV)

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

That makes it clear that even hell itself will be destroyed. The big question remains - will it be empty at that time or not? Scary idea indeed...
 
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gort

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That's the thing with translation - one has to have an intimate knowledge of the original language, the history, the intended audience and so on.

Addressing the OP - technically, Hell is not eternal. It's actually unbiblical to say that it is. See Rev 20:14 - (KJV)



That makes it clear that even hell itself will be destroyed. The big question remains - will it be empty at that time or not? Scary idea indeed...

It will be empty. See Rev 20:13
 
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Soulgazer

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The concept of Heaven and hell or any type of afterlife was not introduced to Judaism until sometime in the Hasmonean dynasty in the second century bc, so quoting OT scripture for Hell is just introducing anachronisms, and would be no more valid than a future religion thrusting their set of beliefs on us.

The Pharisee favored Hellenization, and the Sadducee resisted it; The Sadducee did not believe in an after life, and the Pharisee adopted the Greek stance, with some spin of their own.

The Messianics(who did not agree with the Pharisee but still adopted a belief in an afterlife) relied heavily on the various books attributed to Enoch that also cropped up in this time period.

Those writers such as the authors of Jude, or John, who relied on Enoch, would have seen Hell as a Parable, while those writers who were converted Pharisee would have seen Hell as Literal.

An aeon is more than just a time period; it is also an event with a mind of it's own---not quite a demi-god, but almost.

So as to the doctrine of believing that "Hell" is eternal or temporary, full or empty, is entirely based on the interpretation and scholastic knowledge of the particular founder of a particular denomination. Some were educated, and some were errr, not so much. In any case it is a matter of belief.
 
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bobwtodd

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When the Bible wants to talk about "endlessness" it uses phrases like "no end" as in Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
The phrase here "for ever" is actually "for the eon," Strong's number 165. One needs to grasp the fact that God made the eons which our modern Bibles obscure... like the KJV. Google my ham call, k7vhq, and click on my town of San Jacinto. See my photo and some links that will lead you to a comprehensive studies. To answer this kind of question is not as easy as anwering a question like "What time is it" Bob
 
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JPD

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Whether cultural or parochial views have lent to certain beliefs regarding "hell" and "damnation" is besides the point. The facts we are dealing with here is that "eternity" is NOT Biblical according to Mosaic teaching or law - Nor is "hell" for that matter.

"Sheol" was to the Hebrew mind according to thier OWN law (before pagan corruptions) little more than the state of death in the grave.

"If I wait, the GRAVE [Heb: sheol] is mine HOUSE: I have made my BED in the DARKNESS. I have said to CORRUPTION, You are my father; to the worm, You are my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the PIT [Heb: sheol] , when our REST together is in the DUST" (Job 17:13-16).

If "sheol" is death and decay in the grave - then the doctrine of "hell" based on "sheol" is completely redundant and has NO place in Christian theology, never mind the fact that Bible scholars agree that "eternity" is likewise redundant.

If "eternal damnation" is to be found only outside the current Bible cannon, where does that leave this mainstream Christian doctrine? Perhaps in the mire of pagan tradition where it belongs? Dare we believe it?
 
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Soulgazer

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Whether cultural or parochial views have lent to certain beliefs regarding "hell" and "damnation" is besides the point. The facts we are dealing with here is that "eternity" is NOT Biblical according to Mosaic teaching or law - Nor is "hell" for that matter.
Well, yeah....but..............

We are dealing with a set of beliefs that evolved over time; If I were practicing the earliest form of Judaism, I would be dealing with a pantheon of gods. As the idea of there being only one overall god developed, writings were added or altered to support the theology.

Initially this one god was both good and evil; he would send demons to vex people, or send a good harvest, lead the home army to victory or defeat as the mood hit him. There was no afterlife.

By the time of the christian era, God had developed a powerful adversary who controlled the demon army, and God was only Good, but would lead an army to overthrow the Roman empire. There was an afterlife.

Until the destruction of Jerusalem Christian theology remained under Jewish control.

Early Christianity maintained a pretty firm hold on the whole good/bad separation until it started to become evident that Rome was NOT going to be overthrown. Jerusalem went through the Holocaust. (70ad) Once again, the Jewish(christian) god became good/bad.

Christianity now came under Gentile control; Scriptures were written or modified to present Judaism in a bad light. Christianity became fractured for the next four hundred years.

Now the point of this little exercise is to explain why there are 30,000 christian denominations, all maintaining a "biblical stance" while having 30,000 different viewpoints. You can adopt just about any viewpoint short of god being a purple aardvark, and back it up biblicly, because of the many different theologies and sub dramas that went into the anthology.
 
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Timothew

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Early Christianity maintained a pretty firm hold on the whole good/bad separation until it started to become evident that Rome was NOT going to be overthrown. Jerusalem went through the Holocaust. (70ad) Once again, the Jewish(christian) god became good/bad.

Christianity now came under Gentile control; Scriptures were written or modified to present Judaism in a bad light. Christianity became fractured for the next four hundred years.
When Rome grew into the superpower and absorbed Christianity, one gentile christian sect grew in power along with it, The Roman Christians. This group kept all of the prechristian roman religion's images and ideas and "christened" them. This group came to dominate almost all of Christianity, and was even called universal or "catholic." Now it's called "Catholic." I believe the reformation threw off some prechristian Roman doctrines, It was a good start.
 
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Soulgazer

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When Rome grew into the superpower and absorbed Christianity, one gentile christian sect grew in power along with it, The Roman Christians. This group kept all of the prechristian roman religion's images and ideas and "christened" them. This group came to dominate almost all of Christianity, and was even called universal or "catholic." Now it's called "Catholic." I believe the reformation threw off some prechristian Roman doctrines, It was a good start.

Once Christianity became accepted as the state religion, it actually became a branch of government, and controlled a legion of troops. Rome was a Superpower already. Christians(and Jews) were pretty much tolerated until Domitian. Nero persecuted, but that was on a personal, and not state level. After Domitian, Christians were tolerated, but not liked, as no state liked a pacifist. There were sporadic attempts to bring them under control here and there, until Constantine, who adopted Christianity as the state religion and militarized it. This was pretty much the death knell for any form of the original versions of Christianity.

The reformation threw off so many doctrines, that it actually began, for all intents and purposes, a brand new religion(again). Most of protestant christianity is only a couple hundred years old, however, they are daughters of Catholicism, not seperate in genealogy at all. The proper term for "Protestant" is "Protestant Catholic"; It's still catholicism, still maintains pretty much the same scripture, and there are really only differences in theology and praxis.
 
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Timothew

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Once Christianity became accepted as the state religion, it actually became a branch of government, and controlled a legion of troops. Rome was a Superpower already. Christians(and Jews) were pretty much tolerated until Domitian. Nero persecuted, but that was on a personal, and not state level. After Domitian, Christians were tolerated, but not liked, as no state liked a pacifist. There were sporadic attempts to bring them under control here and there, until Constantine, who adopted Christianity as the state religion and militarized it. This was pretty much the death knell for any form of the original versions of Christianity.

The reformation threw off so many doctrines, that it actually began, for all intents and purposes, a brand new religion(again). Most of protestant christianity is only a couple hundred years old, however, they are daughters of Catholicism, not seperate in genealogy at all. The proper term for "Protestant" is "Protestant Catholic"; It's still catholicism, still maintains pretty much the same scripture, and there are really only differences in theology and praxis.
I agree, "Protestant Catholic", still daughters of Rome, and Roman Christianity is not much different from pre-christian Roman religion.
I'd like to find the original thread of Christianity, not influenced by Rome. I think we can, by studying the letters of the apostles and making a strong effort to not be influenced by Rome.
But the difficulty is that so much of the west is directly influenced by Rome (and through Rome, Greece). Our philo-sophy, our demo-crasy, our "republic" is Greco-Roman.
 
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Soulgazer

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I agree, "Protestant Catholic", still daughters of Rome, and Roman Christianity is not much different from pre-christian Roman religion.
I'd like to find the original thread of Christianity, not influenced by Rome. I think we can, by studying the letters of the apostles and making a strong effort to not be influenced by Rome.
But the difficulty is that so much of the west is directly influenced by Rome (and through Rome, Greece). Our philo-sophy, our demo-crasy, our "republic" is Greco-Roman.
Tim, I am a trained Pastor in supposedly one of the oldest forms of Christianity, and it has eluded me. I honestly don't believe there is "one". Perhaps two, maybe even three or four, but definitely not one.

If you could find copies of the epistles that had been unaltered, but that is a near impossible task; The standards for the preservation of scripture were much different then; in fact they were pretty well non-existent. An archaeologist would have to dig one up....but most Christians would not believe it was real, even if Jesus had signed and sealed it with a kiss.

I tell you what I would dearly love to read---- James and Peter's reply to Paul's accusation that they were hypocrites. Paul said that in Galatians that they had reached an agreement that Paul would take the gentiles and they would take the Jews. I'm betting it was just to hustle Paul out of town. Acts gives no indication that James gave up trying to convert gentiles to Judaism, so it was a pie crust promise at best.
 
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he-man

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Whether cultural or parochial views have lent to certain beliefs regarding "hell" and "damnation" is besides the point. The facts we are dealing with here is that "eternity" is NOT Biblical according to Mosaic teaching or law - Nor is "hell" for that matter.

"Sheol" was to the Hebrew mind according to thier OWN law (before pagan corruptions) little more than the state of death in the grave.

"If I wait, the GRAVE [Heb: sheol] is mine HOUSE: I have made my BED in the DARKNESS. I have said to CORRUPTION, You are my father; to the worm, You are my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the PIT [Heb: sheol] , when our REST together is in the DUST" (Job 17:13-16).

If "sheol" is death and decay in the grave - then the doctrine of "hell" based on "sheol" is completely redundant and has NO place in Christian theology, never mind the fact that Bible scholars agree that "eternity" is likewise redundant.

If "eternal damnation" is to be found only outside the current Bible cannon, where does that leave this mainstream Christian doctrine? Perhaps in the mire of pagan tradition where it belongs? Dare we believe it?
:thumbsup::amen:
 
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NotreDame

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Whether cultural or parochial views have lent to certain beliefs regarding "hell" and "damnation" is besides the point. The facts we are dealing with here is that "eternity" is NOT Biblical according to Mosaic teaching or law - Nor is "hell" for that matter.

"Sheol" was to the Hebrew mind according to thier OWN law (before pagan corruptions) little more than the state of death in the grave.

What evidence do you have to support this claim? From the sources I have read and consulted, the Hebrew word "sheol" denoted more than the "state of death in the grave." The Hebrew word "sheol" is a place in which the spirits of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, went when the physical body perished. It is understandable the OT construes the word in such a manner as it precedes the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, which fundamentally changed this arrangement.

The Old Testament, however, does, although briefly and scarce, reference eternity, despite the fact Mosaic law presumably does not. Daniel 12:2, "2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt."

The New Testament concept changed because Christ's birth, death, and resurrection changed the arrangement of hell.
 
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Timothew

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Originally Posted by Timothew
I'd like to find the original thread of Christianity, not influenced by Rome.

x141 said:
The orginal thread has always been within. From there it flows into the garden, and from the garden becomes a narative of the earthly.

The original thread is within what?
It flows into what garden?
I really need a better map than this, if I'm going to find the original thread! ;)

I think you are speaking figuratively, and I want a literal answer.
A manuscript, like Soulgazer said. A piece of parchment that says "This is the truth, signed Jesus of Nazareth." I don't think I'll ever find it. But I'll keep looking anyway.
 
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JPD

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Despite pagan corruptions over the centuries, the scriptures (as far as their AUTHORS BELIEFS convey) maintain a consistency regarding death, hell and eternity.

Scholars maintain that “sheol” is indeed “the state of the dead in the grave” – the condition of death - if you like. Now scripture is more than clear on what this condition is;

"If I wait, the GRAVE [Heb: sheol] is mine HOUSE: I have made my BED in the DARKNESS. I have said to CORRUPTION, You are my father; to the worm, You are my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the PIT [Heb: sheol] , when our REST together is in the DUST" (Job 17:13-16).

“BED in the DARKNESS” – death is frequently likened to sleep throughout the scriptures.

I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).



“REST together is in the DUST” – the just and unjust went to “sheol” together. The rewards of Gods blessings in the O.T. were always in the life time of the believer.

For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE of Thee: in the grave [Heb: sheol] who shall give You thanks?" (Psalm 6:5).

There are no eternal fires in “sheol.” There are no demons torturing people in “sheol.” There are no memories, conversations, screams of agony – simply the silence of the "grave." Scripture states that it is dead people who are raised in the resurrection, not disembodied spirits or souls floating round in heaven or hell. Or did Paul lie when he said:

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (I Cor.15:51-54).


“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (olam) life, and some to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt.” (Dan 12:2)

Now Daniel 12:2 is an interesting verse, yet scholars maintain their stance that “eternity” is not a scriptural concept. It is hard for most Christians to accept this idea as we have been thoroughly indoctrinated to believe the doctrine of “eternal punishment.”

“Olam” like “aion” ALWAYS pertains to "AN AGE. ” This verse should read more accurately “age abiding life” and “age abiding contempt” Whatever our beliefs are regarding what these “ages” pertain to (i.e punishment or otherwise) is besides the point. This "punishment" or "age of contempt" simply CANNOT be eternal. It’s NOT IN THE LANGUAGE – The Bible speaks of a succession of ages after all. We live in this “present wicked age” for example.

Yet there are indeed hints in the O.T. regarding a resurrection within the dispensation of this succession of “ages.” Consider the following:

...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isa 26:9)

Pray do tell, where will all of the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness? in Hell? in a torture chamber of a Christian “sheol” in the afterlife? As Christians, we maintain that we shall “rule and reign with Christ,” Yet if 99% of humanity is destined for “hell,” who on earth do we rule over? Ourselves? No. There is more to the scriptures than meets the eye.
 
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