Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[createdtoworship]

I so sorry that you were indoctrinated into this vile belief system. I hope that someday you will get rid of it.

And I hope that you don't teach children this horrible theology.

You are basically advocating for the punishment of thought crimes. I am at a loss for words...

I do teach my children these things, and not one of the three believe that they are above and beyond going to hell for their sins.

and we teach the free gift of the grace of God.

and being wise children they all chose, by themself

to become christian, some earlier than others, some later.

but they all made the decision on their own.

 

[Freodin]

I am reminded of a person who has a DUI and kills an innocent pedestrian crossing the road. The police watching the whole thing, pull the car over (hit and run), and said, "did you see you just ran over someone?" They administer a blood alcohol test, and the driver fails. the driver says, no I don't believe in DUI's. I just drink alcohol, but I don't take responsibility, I refuse to believe I am in error, you can't prove that everyone drinking alcohol should go to prison. They arrest the person and sentence them to five years in prison. At the court trial, the prisoner says: I don't believe in the Judge, nor do I believe in prison. You can't prove that alcohol is evil. Prove it! And as he yells his insults at the jury and judge, they unanimously vote that he is guilty because of the eye witness of the officers. And he is sent to a prison he didn't believe in, from a judge he didn't believe in, and because of a sin, he didn't believe in. Thus will be your judgement. The judgement comes regardless if you believe in the judge, or the crime.

I am reminded of this:

just because a baby covers his face and refuses to see the parents, does not mean the parents aren't coming.

Five years in prison for aggravated DUI? Sounds reasonable. Usually combined with a retraction of the driver's licence until a psychological test. Perhaps combined with an alcohol therapy in difficult cases.
One might almost consider you a reasonable person.

But that is not what your disgusting version of "justice" entails. This driver will be locked up for five years... and another five years... and another five years... and another... and another... and... and... (I could go on for eternity. LITERALLY!) And he will be beaten up by the guards all the time. Who will patch him up and set his bone... so that they can beat him up again, and make sure he feels it. Without ceasing, without pause, without hope for an end.

The "innocent" person the driver ran over? Police will throw him in jail as well. For... I don't know... walking without clearly visible clothing. Breaking curfew. Or whatever millon "sins" he commited as baby. Eternal jail and beatings for him, too.

Then they stopped another car. Who had not run over anyone, and hadn't had a drink. But he had thought about having a nice scotch before the trip.... and so the police and judge considered him just as guilty as the drunk driver. Eternal punishment for him as well.

And then there was another driver, dead-drunk, ran over several pedestrians and crashed his car into a preschool. He climbed from his wrecked car and drunkenly waved a small card in front of the approaching cop. "All right, Sir!", bowed the officer. "We will care for your needs instantly. An order for a new and better car is already on its way. Good you were a club member... you really wouldn't want to be on the other end."

Five years for drunk driving. HAH!

 

[mmksparbud]

Get a good night's sleep and hopefully be better when you wake.

Now regarding your post: I can understand that you believe that, and that you base that belief in what others believed and wrote about.

But personally, I find this version of "justice" that you promote here almost as disgusting as the eternal torture dogma. Not quite, but almost.
It is so petty, small-minded, limited and useless. Very human... in the worst sense of that concept.

I have no interest in convincing you of that. I am just expressing my utter astonishment of the many ways people try to sell their ideas without a shread of regard as to how these ideas appear to those who have not already bought it.

Thanks, not much better!
Whether you agree to this or not doesn't matter. Sin can not live in the presence of a Holy God. Like a drop of water can not exist on the surface of the sun. Doesn't matter if the drop of water doesn't like that fact. There has to be justice for those child molesters never caught, for the Hitters, for the drugged out lousy parents, for the drunken idiots who ruined the lives of those around them, for all the adulterers who think nothing of it, all the liars and cheats and for all those that don't care about anyone but themselves. Justice will come---doesn't matter if you think it won't. Just because someone doesn't think there is a God, whether anyone thinks there is no such a thing as sin. There is. And everyone will face that fact and be held accountable for how they spent their time, their money, what they did with all the gifts God gave them. Sin for the unbeliever is a state of mind. They feel justified in what they do. And they will never change and they would be horribly unhappy in a world without sin and where there is a God. It would be cruel to make them live forever in a world they hate with a God they don't want. Since there is no life without that God---they have no protection against His presence which is as a devouring fire without the protection of the blood of Jesus.
In the final phase of this earth---all those resurrected who reject the life of sinlessness and rebel against this God who holds them accountable with have only one choice---they will join with Satan and the rest of every unrepentant sinner to try and take God's city by force.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. There is no everlasting burning hell, but there is justice.

God will have His planet back. He will wipe out every sinner, and He will remake this earth for those who do love Him and want to be with Him, for they have the protection of the blood of Jesus that allows them to live with such a Holy, and pure being. There will be no more pain, sorrow, tears or death. It will be a world that you would hate---so you will not be in it. You will have no one to blame but yourself, for you could have chosen otherwise.

 

[Der Alte]

Tell you what---you go anywhere over there in the middle east and if you find a fire that has been burning for a few 1000 years---then you'll have your eternal fire. Unless you do---it's very apparent it is not burning to everyone but you.

Deliberately misrepresenting what I said to further your argument. First you please show me where I said there was fire anywhere on this earth burning for 1000 years then we can talk. If you intend to keep misrepresenting what I say I will be glad to ignore your future posts.

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

His prophets NOT every Tom, Dick and Harry.

God doesn't lie or tell 1/2 truths---If Adam and Eve were going to burn forever, that is what He would have told them. God said if they ate of it they would die. If God had not told them, they would have ate of it without knowing what would happen to them and it would not have been a sin. God wanted them to know what would happen----which was to die, not burn in hell forever.

I'm so glad that you have a direct line to God and can speak about what He should or should not have said in any given situation.

I hold no place for those people you quoted---sorry. They are not cannon. It doesn't matter to me what they believe. You can believe whomeverr you want, I go by the bible.

Another deliberate misrepresentation and an implied accusation. Please show me anything I have ever posted that is not supported with scripture?
Unlike a lot of folks I did not grow up in the church. I did go to Sunday School as a child and I knew all the Bible Hero stories; David, Samson, Joshua etc. but I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s when Johnson was president. So everything I believe learned as an adult. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago.

And that is exactly the point--the dead know not anything. Lost or saved--until the resurrection.

If you ignore Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 and Luke 16:19-31.

If you want to believe that Lazarus was a depiction of the state of the dead, go right ahead. I'll take whast Jesus said about it,
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Though---even if someone rose from the dead. Not that they do. IKt is about unbelief--that is what Jesus said and I believe Him

You keep repeating this like some kind of magical mantra. How does this prove that is not about the state of the dead? In these 2 verses "from the dead" occurs twice. Certainly looks like the state of the dead to me and also as I stated every ECF who quoted or refers to this considered it factual.

 

[Der Alte]

Just stumbled over this little piece of "Holy Scripture":
1 Cor 13:4-8 (partial)
"Love [...] keeps no record of wrongs."
Compare that with the love of a God who remembers every tiny little "sin" that you ever commited, and deliberately ensures that you will suffer eternally because of it.

This is the problem with unscriptural, contentious, later, theological systems. By quoting selective verses out-of-context someone can make the Bible say almost anything.
For example in Psalm 14 and 53 the Bible says "There is no God." Let us just ignore the fact that in context it says "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Here are a few verses which speak about God's memory.

Exo_20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo_34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Num_14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deu_5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
2 Th_1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
​

 

[Freodin]

Thanks, not much better!
Whether you agree to this or not doesn't matter. Sin can not live in the presence of a Holy God. Like a drop of water can not exist on the surface of the sun. Doesn't matter if the drop of water doesn't like that fact. There has to be justice for those child molesters never caught, for the Hitters, for the drugged out lousy parents, for the drunken idiots who ruined the lives of those around them, for all the adulterers who think nothing of it, all the liars and cheats and for all those that don't care about anyone but themselves. Justice will come---doesn't matter if you think it won't. Just because someone doesn't think there is a God, whether anyone thinks there is no such a thing as sin. There is. And everyone will face that fact and be held accountable for how they spent their time, their money, what they did with all the gifts God gave them. Sin for the unbeliever is a state of mind. They feel justified in what they do. And they will never change and they would be horribly unhappy in a world without sin and where there is a God. It would be cruel to make them live forever in a world they hate with a God they don't want. Since there is no life without that God---they have no protection against His presence which is as a devouring fire without the protection of the blood of Jesus.
In the final phase of this earth---all those resurrected who reject the life of sinlessness and rebel against this God who holds them accountable with have only one choice---they will join with Satan and the rest of every unrepentant sinner to try and take God's city by force.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. There is no everlasting burning hell, but there is justice.

God will have His planet back. He will wipe out every sinner, and He will remake this earth for those who do love Him and want to be with Him, for they have the protection of the blood of Jesus that allows them to live with such a Holy, and pure being. There will be no more pain, sorrow, tears or death. It will be a world that you would hate---so you will not be in it. You will have no one to blame but yourself, for you could have chosen otherwise.

You really do not see the inherent contradiction in this approach, do you?

Ok, let's say that "sin cannot live in the presence of a Holy God" (which could be debated, but let's say this is so for the sake of the argument).
Then the reasonable approach is to remove sin. Any form of "punishment" - limited or eternal - doesn't do anything towards this goal. It just plays into the - human - idea that "evil" is somehow pay for by... more evil.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "You don't want to live in such a world, you wouldn't like it in such a world."
The point is: such a world is neither "just" not "loving". A deity that promotes such a world is not worthy of that title.
Even the anihilation-type of deity would be a rather incompetent creator and could be better.

I think this atheist here imagines a much better and worthier kind of God than those who "love him"... and still limit him to the worst that a human can be.

 

[Freodin]

This is the problem with unscriptural, contentious, later, theological systems. By quoting selective verses out-of-context someone can make the Bible say almost anything.

This is the problem with certain approaches to apologetics: just claim "this is out of context" and then introduce your own preferred interpretation.
But I have to admit that it is a time-honoured approach, which basically all of Christianity is based on, from the very beginnings.

BTW, is your username supposed to be German?

 

[mmksparbud]

Deliberately misrepresenting what I said to further your argument. First you please show me where I said there was fire anywhere on this earth burning for 1000 years then we can talk. If you intend to keep misrepresenting what I say I will be glad to ignore your future posts.

.Yes Sodom and Gomorrah were burned by eternal fire.

So where is this eternal fire burning---for there is nothing burning still---the end result is eternal---not the burning.

His prophets NOT every Tom, Dick and Harry.

No---not every Tom, Dick or Harry---just Adam and Eve for they were the only humans on this planet.

I'm so glad that you have a direct line to God and can speak about what He should or should not have said in any given situation.

The bible clearly states the character of God. He is love, He is Justice, He is power.

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

No, He doesn't lie and He doesn't tell 1/2 truths. And anyone can see that love and justice demands He would have informed the only 2 persons on this planet that they would burn in hell forever if they ate from that tree if that was the price. But the price is death---cease to exist--that is the price.

If you ignore Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 and Luke 16:19-31.

You keep repeating this like some kind of magical mantra. How does this prove that is not about the state of the dead? In these 2 verses "from the dead" occurs twice. Certainly looks like the state of the dead to me and also as I stated every ECF who quoted or refers to this considered it factual.

As I said, if you wish to believe that parables and allegories are fact, then do so. I believe in what Jesus said about what the allegory of Lazarus was about

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


You can post 100 quotes from anyone you wish---it doesn't change the fact of what Jesus said and that is what I will believe.

Another deliberate misrepresentation and an implied accusation. Please show me anything I have ever posted that is not supported with scripture?
Unlike a lot of folks I did not grow up in the church. I did go to Sunday School as a child and I knew all the Bible Hero stories; David, Samson, Joshua etc. but I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s when Johnson was president. So everything I believe learned as an adult. I studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago.

The Pharisees were highly educated and learned men, and prided themselves on their knowledge of scripture---Jesus was a very poor man and could not afford such a lavish education---decades of learning error is no education at all. Scripture reveals the character of God, all scriptures are to be taken together. There are sufficient of them that disprove a forever torment, they have been posted many times in many threads that you have been on but you wish to keep this belief. It is your right to do so.
But what I would like to know is, why do you prefer your forever torture, to the wicked paying according to their works as the bible says and then ceasing to exist? Why do you want to see a 14 year old boy who stole $5 and never repented to eternal torure right next to Hitler, not to mention unbaptized babies as some belief? Whyy do you want to believe those scriptures and ignore the concept of plain justice that others state? If that is someone you love, such as your mother, child, grandmother---why do you want to see them burning forever when they can receive their just punishment and cease to exist?

My brother died a drug addict---he had a misersble life on this earth. He must pay for his sins if he died unrepentant---but for the love of heaven---I do not want to see him tortured forever---why do you?

 

[mmksparbud]

You really do not see the inherent contradiction in this approach, do you?

Ok, let's say that "sin cannot live in the presence of a Holy God" (which could be debated, but let's say this is so for the sake of the argument).
Then the reasonable approach is to remove sin. Any form of "punishment" - limited or eternal - doesn't do anything towards this goal. It just plays into the - human - idea that "evil" is somehow pay for by... more evil.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "You don't want to live in such a world, you wouldn't like it in such a world."
The point is: such a world is neither "just" not "loving". A deity that promotes such a world is not worthy of that title.
Even the anihilation-type of deity would be a rather incompetent creator and could be better.

I think this atheist here imagines a much better and worthier kind of God than those who "love him"... and still limit him to the worst that a human can be.

He will remove sin. Unfortunately, that means removing the sinner, for they do not wish to live without sinning. God does not force anyone to be what they do not want to be. He isn't going to force you to believe---you have the same amount of evidence as any other believer for there being a God, and there being a just and loving God---it us your choice to not want Him. If you reject Him and His Love and Justice---you will have neither, and that is justice.

 

[Freodin]

He will remove sin. Unfortunately, that means removing the sinner, for they do not wish to live without sinning. God does not force anyone to be what they do not want to be. He isn't going to force you to believe---you have the same amount of evidence as any other believer for there being a God, and there being a just and loving God---it us your choice to not want Him. If you reject Him and His Love and Justice---you will have neither, and that is justice.

Unfortunately? So you disagree with this application of "Love" and "Justice"? Why don't you want to have such a God? Surely he will punish you for that.

Seriously... after a few decades of theological discussions, I no longer care for the details of everyones personal theology. I have learned that regardless what type of believer you talk to, his neighbor will tell you that it is different.

Perhaps at this point I have even given up at trying to make believers understand anything about the non-Christians / atheists they are talking to. I am fundamentally an optimist, so that might change again.
But right now all that I have left is to declare my astonishment at the absolute cluelessness that believers display in their conversation with unbelievers.

 

[createdtoworship]

Five years in prison for aggravated DUI? Sounds reasonable. Usually combined with a retraction of the driver's licence until a psychological test. Perhaps combined with an alcohol therapy in difficult cases.
One might almost consider you a reasonable person.

But that is not what your disgusting version of "justice" entails. This driver will be locked up for five years... and another five years... and another five years... and another... and another... and... and... (I could go on for eternity. LITERALLY!) And he will be beaten up by the guards all the time. Who will patch him up and set his bone... so that they can beat him up again, and make sure he feels it. Without ceasing, without pause, without hope for an end.

The "innocent" person the driver ran over? Police will throw him in jail as well. For... I don't know... walking without clearly visible clothing. Breaking curfew. Or whatever millon "sins" he commited as baby. Eternal jail and beatings for him, too.

Then they stopped another car. Who had not run over anyone, and hadn't had a drink. But he had thought about having a nice scotch before the trip.... and so the police and judge considered him just as guilty as the drunk driver. Eternal punishment for him as well.

And then there was another driver, dead-drunk, ran over several pedestrians and crashed his car into a preschool. He climbed from his wrecked car and drunkenly waved a small card in front of the approaching cop. "All right, Sir!", bowed the officer. "We will care for your needs instantly. An order for a new and better car is already on its way. Good you were a club member... you really wouldn't want to be on the other end."

Five years for drunk driving. HAH!

Yes because hell logically is punishment for the sin of the soul. Prison only punishes physical crimes. Sins of the soul by definition are eternal because the soul is eternal. In order not to be eternal a soul must have mass. Time affects mass. According to general relativity. if prisons punished in a truly just way, knowing all of our thoughts, then they too would have longer sentences for crimes of thought. That is if the government was a moral government, that's a big IF.

 

[Freodin]

Yes because hell logically is punishment for the sin of the soul. Prison only punishes physical crimes. Sins of the soul by definition are eternal because the soul is eternal. In order not to be eternal a soul must have mass. Time affects mass. According to general relativity. if prisons punished in a truly just way, knowing all of our thoughts, then they too would have longer sentences for crimes of thought. That is if the government was a moral government, that's a big IF.

Which of course would mean that your previous example is completely irrelevant.
Your "general relativity" approach to "sin" is... innovative, I give you that. It is also physically and theologcially false... but I know you don't care about that.

But at least you admitted that you are going for "crimes of thought" here. Again I can only express my astonishment about what amount of filth you "loving" people try to sell.

 

[holo]

@gradyll ,
I'm trying to understand how you deem something to be good/bad, just/unjust.

Do you believe it was morally wrong for the Nazis to gas/shoot/starve to death all those Jews (not to forget all the others)? If I understand you right, they deserved it. In fact they deserved infinitely worse treatment than they got. Whatever the Nazis put them through is literally nothing compared to what God is doing to them as we speak.

 

[mmksparbud]

Unfortunately? So you disagree with this application of "Love" and "Justice"? Why don't you want to have such a God? Surely he will punish you for that.

Seriously... after a few decades of theological discussions, I no longer care for the details of everyones personal theology. I have learned that regardless what type of believer you talk to, his neighbor will tell you that it is different.

Perhaps at this point I have even given up at trying to make believers understand anything about the non-Christians / atheists they are talking to. I am fundamentally an optimist, so that might change again.
But right now all that I have left is to declare my astonishment at the absolute cluelessness that believers display in their conversation with unbelievers.

I know exactly how you feel!

 

[createdtoworship]

Which of course would mean that your previous example is completely irrelevant.
Your "general relativity" approach to "sin" is... innovative, I give you that. It is also physically and theologcially false... but I know you don't care about that.

But at least you admitted that you are going for "crimes of thought" here. Again I can only express my astonishment about what amount of filth you "loving" people try to sell.

@gradyll ,
I'm trying to understand how you deem something to be good/bad, just/unjust.

Do you believe it was morally wrong for the Nazis to gas/shoot/starve to death all those Jews (not to forget all the others)? If I understand you right, they deserved it. In fact they deserved infinitely worse treatment than they got. Whatever the Nazis put them through is literally nothing compared to what God is doing to them as we speak.

Freodin, can you expound on how my example is irrelevant, from my perspective all my comments intermesh well, and are fully incorporated and fully logical, so I am curious as to where you see that.

Yes, Jesus' main concern was thought life. He equated anger with someone as murder, and looking at inappropriate content as if you were actually committing the sexual act yourself. Christianity is about the heart. The Bible says the eyes are the windows to the soul. what you allow yourself to see and be affected and influenced by, will affect the sins of lust and anger. Once I stopped watching certain movies, shows and blocking women who dressed provocatively on social media, it was a miracle the lust just stopped. It's true, what you see affects you.

Holo: only God does true justice. The bible repeatedly says not to extort revenge.

the Bible says:
"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” (allow God to fight your battles spiritually)
Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 12:17-19 NKJV

 

[holo]

Holo: only God does true justice. The bible repeatedly says not to extort revenge.

the Bible says:
"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” (allow God to fight your battles spiritually)
Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 12:17-19 NKJV

I don't think that answers my question. It seems God is telling us not to repay evil for evil, yet if hell is like you say, that's exactly what he himself is doing.

When I think of torturing someone eternally, I think that's something the devil would want to do, not God.

Again, if I understand you correctly, those who died in the gas chambers (and really, anyone who suffers anything at all), deserved it. In fact, they deserve much worse. Infinitely much worse.

So if I, say, torture and murder my child, it's not wrong because the child doesn't deserve it, but because torturing the child is God's job.

 

[Der Alte]

This is the problem with certain approaches to apologetics: just claim "this is out of context" and then introduce your own preferred interpretation.
But I have to admit that it is a time-honoured approach, which basically all of Christianity is based on, from the very beginnings.
BTW, is your username supposed to be German?

Except when the person who said a verse was out-of-context proceeds to show how the verse was out-of-context and explains as I did. Perhaps you would like to actually read my post and offer some constructive criticism?
Meinst du es ist Deutsch oder nicht? Willst du mich korrigieren?

 

[Der Alte]

So where is this eternal fire burning---for there is nothing burning still---the end result is eternal---not the burning.

Greek grammar as English has a purpose. I explained it once but you choose to ignore anything but your own assumptions/presuppositions.
The adjective "eternal" only modifies one word "fire." It does not modify "vengeance" or "suffering." No amount of twisting by you can make it say what you want it to. Sorry!

No---not every Tom, Dick or Harry---just Adam and Eve for they were the only humans on this planet.

Irrelevant. Adam and Eve were not prophets!

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.​

The bible clearly states the character of God. He is love, He is Justice, He is power.

When did God appoint you to decide what is or is not loving and justice for Him? Was God loving and just when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, men, women, young, old children, infants? What sins had infants committed that they deserved being burned alive?

No, He doesn't lie and He doesn't tell 1/2 truths. And anyone can see that love and justice demands He would have informed the only 2 persons on this planet that they would burn in hell forever if they ate from that tree if that was the price. But the price is death---cease to exist--that is the price.

You don't get to decide what God should or should not do under any circumstances. When scripture doesn't say what you want it to you just make up your own reasons.

As I said, if you wish to believe that parables and allegories are fact, then do so. I believe in what Jesus said about what the allegory of Lazarus was about
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I asked you once before to explain to me how you think this proves that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable? You seem to think "though" proves it. That word in Greek is ἐάν "a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty:"
The same word occurs in Matt 5:19

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever [ἐάν] therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

ἐάν in this verse certainly does not mean nobody is going to break the least commandment.

You can post 100 quotes from anyone you wish---it doesn't change the fact of what Jesus said and that is what I will believe.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Satayana

The Pharisees were highly educated and learned men, and prided themselves on their knowledge of scripture---Jesus was a very poor man and could not afford such a lavish education---decades of learning error is no education at all. Scripture reveals the character of God, all scriptures are to be taken together. There are sufficient of them that disprove a forever torment, they have been posted many times in many threads that you have been on but you wish to keep this belief. It is your right to do so.

Why do you ignore verses such as Matt 25:46?

But what I would like to know is, why do you prefer your forever torture, to the wicked paying according to their works as the bible says and then ceasing to exist? Why do you want to see a 14 year old boy who stole $5 and never repented to eternal torure right next to Hitler, not to mention unbaptized babies as some belief? Whyy do you want to believe those scriptures and ignore the concept of plain justice that others state? If that is someone you love, such as your mother, child, grandmother---why do you want to see them burning forever when they can receive their just punishment and cease to exist?

All deliberately false accusations. Do you think this somehow proves your are right by accusing me of all this rubbish?

My brother died a drug addict---he had a misersble life on this earth. He must pay for his sins if he died unrepentant---but for the love of heaven---I do not want to see him tortured forever---why do you?

I have not said anything about your or your brother or any other specific persons. Since you can't refrain from false accusations there is no point trying to have a civil discussion with you. This is common with all false doctrines when they can't support their false doctrines from scripture they resort to insults.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't think that answers my question. It seems God is telling us not to repay evil for evil, yet if hell is like you say, that's exactly what he himself is doing.

When I think of torturing someone eternally, I think that's something the devil would want to do, not God.

Again, if I understand you correctly, those who died in the gas chambers (and really, anyone who suffers anything at all), deserved it. In fact, they deserve much worse. Infinitely much worse.

So if I, say, torture and murder my child, it's not wrong because the child doesn't deserve it, but because torturing the child is God's job.

in the old testament we were commanded an eye for an eye. That was actually merciful to extract a similiar punishment for the crime. See if someone poked out one of my eyes, I may be inclined to take both of their eyes, plus some. Revenge was to be equal to the crime. Later on in the age of grace, and with the coming of the son of God, God did something different. Instead of expecting equal revenge, he said forgive those who harm you, just as you have been forgiven.

with Jesus, came a whole new idea.

with moses came the law.

with Jesus came grace and truth.

The devil won't be torturing anyone in eternity, see hell was originally created for satan. But in the garden he tempted adam and eve (our corporate parents), and with the purpose of dragging them to hell with him. It worked. After that day, they died spiritually, and were forbidden access to the tree which granted eternal life. In the end days, we will have access to those same trees again. But the point is this: God punishes sin. If you have ever told a lie, according to God's word that makes you a liar. If you have looked at a woman with lust, what does that make you according to God's word? An adulterer. If you have ever stolen something, what does that make you according to God's word? A thief. If you have ever said "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" on a text, you are a blasphemer. That is only four of the ten commandments and you are already a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. On Judgement day will you be guilty or innocent? You will be guilty. And all of these are sins done premeditatively by your soul (your operating system of your body). It only takes one sin to be condemned to hell, the reason is this: sin is eternal in scope, because it is done by a soul, that is eternal. You can die, but your sin will remain, because your soul is not killed by death. Information is another thing that is eternal, because information has no mass. That is why God is truth.

At this point I want to share the one requirement to be saved.

I think this applies to this discussion, but it's sort of long but it only takes a few minutes to read, sorry about all the spacing in between lines:


#1- GOD LOVES YOU AND WANTS EVERYONE TO GO TO HEAVEN



The Bible says:

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” -John 3:16


BUT THE BAD NEWS IS...


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#2- WE HAVE ALL SINNED


“there is not a distinction, for all sinned and are falling short of the glory of God”

Romans 3:23



Do you know what sin is?


Is things like lying, cheating, or stealing...


Sin is more than just...


"look but don't touch"


Sin can be a simple impurity in our thoughts


-HEAVEN IS A PERFECT PLACE


Why does God require perfection? He requires perfection because HE IS PERFECT!


-HUMAN BEINGS ARE FAR FROM PERFECT


Are we perfect, I know I am not (ARE YOU?)


When we are not perfect,


the Bible calls this SIN


.......it is this same SIN of imperfection...


that keeps us from going


to heaven naturally when we die.


-JESUS COMMANDS PERFECTION IN ORDER TO GO TO HEAVEN


“Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Matthew 5: 48



- The Bible also recognizes the dangers that lurk ahead...



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#3 BECAUSE OF THIS SIN, WE FACE CERTAIN JUDGMENT FROM GOD.


- Don't be a "Kathy"


Kathy was late for work again. In her haste, she ran into another car. Obviously, Kathy was upset and she vowed to never rush or drive carelessly again. Assuming that Kathy is able to maintain this vow for 5 or even 20 years, this still would not remove the damage she caused to the other car.


VOWS of repentance does not undo the damage done in a previous accident.


Likewise, if a person has become tired of sin and vowed to never sin again, it will not undo the damage brought on by his previous sins. Living a good and sinless life does not take away sin. ONLY BY FULFILLING THE ONE REQUIREMENT WILL.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me illustrate:



WHEN GOOD AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH


How often do you sin (say Once or twice on a good day?)


Well, what if you had a really good day


and you were almost perfect all day long


and only sinned TWO times in 24 hour period:


Is this good enough?


Well look at it this way.


If you multiplied the number (#) of sins


times the number (#) of days in a year….


how many sins is it?


When we add them up


it's a little over seven hundred sins


at the age of 12 months old (1 year).


Multiply that #


times the # of your current age (in years).


Now, if you were only 2 years old


this would be a little over 1,400 sins already.


NOTE: These figures apply to ABOVE AVERAGE people (really GOOD people


that have only 1-2 bad thoughts a day).


Now, let me add it up for you...


cha ching....that would be 700 a year,


1400 for two years,


7000 for ten years.


now thats close to 50,000 sins for the average lifetime (70 years)


Can you imagine being a good person and


YET confessing and repenting even ONE thousand times?


Now


With this mind set....Let me ask you one question.


Do you think you deserve heaven now? (after 50,000) sins?


Why?


If you said NO - then you’re correct,


If you said anything other than NO, go back up to point #2 and RE-READ.


And if you are thinking that "no one can go to heaven," YOU ARE RIGHT!


Remember that

... even though there are many commandments in the Bible,


there is ACTUALLY only ONE REQUIREMENT that God makes of us…


Do you know what it is yet?


WELL LET ME TELL YOU THE

GOOD NEWS...


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#4 - GOD SENT HIS SON, JESUS TO PAY THE PENALTY OF OUR SINS


See, Jesus Christ came to earth and lived a perfect life.


At the end of His life He was nailed to a cross.


After He died and was buried,


He rose from the dead on the third day


to show that He had conquered Sin and death


and to show He was the only way.


So now it's good news.


Since Jesus died for us,


we can now be forgiven for all of our lies,


cheats, thefts or whatever else we've done wrong,


except one sin.


I will tell you what it is in a second.


The Bible says, "By this we know what love is:


Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.”-2*


God is offering us complete forgiveness for all our sins...past, present and future.-3*


The Bible also says "This is how God showed his love among us:


He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."4*


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#5 - JESUS IS THE ONLY DOOR TO HEAVEN


A)- If there was only one door to your house,


and no windows,


you would have to go through that door to get inside wouldn't you?


B)- In the same way, if you want to go to heaven,


you must go through Jesus Christ.


He's the only door.


Jesus said:


"I am the way,


the truth


and the life.


No one


comes to


the Father


except through Me." -


John 14:6



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#6 - JESUS OFFERS US THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE


The gift is his body.


Broken


and given.


We are saved


when we simply believe


on His name


.... “Jesus.”


The one name


that offers our only hope


of eternal life.



Christianity does not require a commitment


to a method of self-improvement,


meditation,


good works,


or even the Ten Commandments (Decalogue)


Our hope is not in following laws or standards,


but in knowing a Savior who fully accepts us.


We don't earn our place in heaven by religious efforts or good deeds.


He has provided the way for us.


Heaven is free.


The Bible says that "God imputes righteousness without works"-5*


For example:


If we became friends and I decided to give you a gift.


Say I wanted to show you how much I appreciated you


and I treated you to the movies. (I would pay by check of course.)


Now, how much would that ticket cost you?


Would you have to work for it


if I gave it to you as a gift?


Or what if it was your birthday


or christmas,


would you have to work for those gifts?


No,


of course not.


Now if I gave you a check that was good for one free admission


to Fun Works and Putt Putt Golf...


what would you have to do before you could use that check?


You would have to REDEEM it.


That's right, and you REDEEM it how?


By SIGNING YOUR NAME ON THE DOTTED LINE


and believing that I will not fail you


in providing the amount of money


I SAID I was going to give you


... it takes faith in ME


What is Faith?


It is the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of the unseen.


We need to not only believe that God's salvation is real intellectually


(or Jesus is real,)


we need to believe that Jesus died for our sins


personally.


We need to deposit salvation into our hearts (by trusting in it’s ability to save us.)


When we do this


we are sealed and secure in Him.


When you deposit salvation into your heart,


no one can rob it from you.


No one.


“who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us form the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”-Romans 8:35, 39


YOU GET REDEEMED, and that’s why the gift of God is more valuable

than a million G's (more than a 1,000,000 dollars!)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#7- IN ORDER TO RECIEVE THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, WE MUST RECIEVE INTO OUR HEARTS GOD'S GREATEST GIFT OF ALL, JESUS CHRIST


A)- That's the one requirement God makes of us to go to heaven: To receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord.

B)- But what does it mean to receive Christ and how does one do it?


The Bible says

"...as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God..."

-John 1:12


“…Believe (trust) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…”

- Acts 16:31

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Now, you have just read the GREATEST STORY

Ever told about the GREATEST OFFER

Ever made by the GREATEST PERSON

Who ever lived : JESUS CHRIST

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#8- WE RECIEVE CHRIST BY FAITH. A WAY TO EXPRESS OUR FAITH IN JESUS IS BY PRAYING THE A-B-C PRAYER.


(note: it is good to pray for people, but this isn’t talking about on-going prayer, this ABC prayer needs to be done only one time only.)


THE A-B-C PRAYER: (a prayer of faith)


"Dear Jesus I know I can't do it on my own. I have tried and failed. I...

A-DMIT: I ADmit that I don't deserve it.....but I

B-ELIEVE: I BElieve that you died for my sins past, present and future. I also...

C-OMMIT TO RECIEVE: I commit to receive your forgiveness and the gift of eternal life”


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#9- THREE RESULTS


When you pray a prayer of invitation (ABC Prayer), three things are revealed.


1) That you have the gift

2) That all your sins are forgiven-forever!

+the sins you have done in the past are forgiven

+the sins you are currently doing,

+and the sins you will do in the future

- are all forgiven

------------------------------------------------

= All blotted out


(-see foot note #3 later for more info on this)



3)The third thing that is revealed when you pray the prayer of faith is that your name has been found written in God's book as one of those who will go to heaven!



There has to be an act of commitment


You can’t walk the fence anymore, you are on one side or the other and to

BE UNDECIDED …..IS TO SLAM THE GATE …..AND REJECT HIM.


The one sin He never died for is when your told the message and you say,


"I believe in you Jesus, or I don't"

(either one)


but I'm not willing to commit to receive it


That sin guarantees you HELL, especially if you died without making the commitment of FAITH.


Do you understand this message?


If not REREAD POINT #2 WE’VE ALL SINNED...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#10- THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION- (worth more than a million in heaven)


A) If we were to have a terrible tragedy right now and we all died, it would be great to know that we were going to heaven right now, wouldn't it?


B) Well Jesus is offering you the gift of eternal life right now if you are willing to receive Him as your Saviour and as Lord, but are you ready to commit and pray the

A-B-C prayer? Are you ready to Admit, believe, commit?


If you are not ready then STOP HERE.


But if you are committed to getting the gift read on…


Easy as 1-2-3,

There’s a simple prayer you can pray to receive Christ into your life.


Pray the ABC prayer directly to God and invite Him into your heart NOW…


"Dear God I know I can't do it on my own. I have tried and failed. I...

A-DMIT: I ADmit that I don't deserve it.....but I

B-ELIEVE: I BElieve that you died for my sins past, present and future. I also...

C-OMMIT TO RECIEVE IT: I COmmit to receive it PERSONALLY. RIGHT NOW I commit to sign on the dotted line, to deposit the check and commit to believe it personally (as applying to ME).

 

[Tinker Grey]

For crying out loud ... FORMATTING!