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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

  1. no hell does not exist

    50.0%
  2. no it just means death

    20.0%
  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

    10.0%
  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    20.0%
  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    The law has no choice but to give evil more power than good because it cannot read minds; God is supposed to be better than that. Also, when I break laws, I hurt others who live within the law. When I break God's laws, I do not harm God in any way.

    No, he did not make sure we were all born perfectly righteous. After Adam and Eve, everybody was born in Sin.

    I’m not talking about Adam and Eve; (they had their chance) I’m talking about everybody born after Adam and Eve.
     
  2. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I can see your point. However if God consistently does things that does not seem to be good, we should not go around calling him good.
     
  3. holo

    holo former Christian

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    I can't view the video because copyright country bbc whatever.

    But I agree. The idea that God is good must be taken on faith, because looking at the world, and even the bible, it's not exactly evident that he is. I mean sure, giving your life for the sake of others appears to be a good thing. But then, using our same sense of morality, it's hard to see how having bears mauling children to death for making fun of a bald guy can be a "good" thing. Not to mention the story of Job: it's sometimes used to portray God as benevolent since Job got a new family and wealth etc in the end. But his first wife and children were apparently expendable.
     
  4. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    God does not use allegory as much as your point seems. Typically allegory are restricted to parables, or poems like the psalms, and no in relation to doctrine, unless He was purposefully trying to hide a theological truth via a parable. Sometimes Christ did that, but when He did so with doctrine, He always gave an interpretation of the parable to those who were faithful, a key to understanding the allegory. Never is blank allegory used as it relates to doctrine, that was not interpreted.

    anyway I talk more about aion, and aionios in post one

    Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified
     
  5. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    If you like to verbalize the video in your own words we could debate the content of it, if not I assume it's not that important to you or to the topic at hand.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Figure of speech is not allegory. When Hanna said she would give her son to work in the temple forever---it was no parable, no allegory---figure of speech---until death.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    actually bullinger documented every figure of speech, and unless you can find it in that book, which I doubt you can, you are just moving the goal posts.
     
  8. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    The video was for somebody else; not you. Would you mind responding to the questions I directed to you?
     
  9. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Whether Bulinger said it or not, these are verses where forever did not mean forever.

    Gen 43:8 And Judah said unto Israel his father, Send the lad with me, and we will arise and go; that we may live, and not die, both we, and thou, and also our little ones.
    Gen 43:9 I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

    Deu_15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
    1Sa_1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.
    1Sa_27:12 And Achish believed David, saying, He hath made his people Israel utterly to abhor him; therefore he shall be my servant for ever.

    1Sa_28:2 And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.
    1Ki_1:31 Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.

    1Ki 12:7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.
    2Ch_10:7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou be kind to this people, and please them, and speak good words to them, they will be thy servants for ever.
    Job_41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
    Jon_2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
     
  10. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    post a link
     
  11. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I would cross reference with the NKJV, it corrects many of the errors of the KJV. And if it doesn't then post the verse so I can look at it later, but it may be next weekend when I have my computer. for now you can browse this topic it may be a good read, it's long and several posts long, this is from a greek scholar that made a NT translation kenneth wuest.



    Is Future Punishment Everlasting?


    THE Church has always held tenaciously to the teaching that the punishment of those who enter eternity unsaved, is unending. There is abundant evidence in the apocryphal literature of Israel to show that nation believed and taught the same thing. Of late, however, the assertion is being made that this punishment is for a limited time only, this contention being based upon the statement that the two Greek words used to describe this punishment, refer to a limited period of time. These two words are, the noun, aion (αἰον), and the adjective, aionios (αἰονιος).
    We submit Moulton and Milligan in their Vocabulary of the Greek Testament as our first authority. The work of these scholars is recognized as the latest advance in New Testament research, since it is based upon the study of the Greek secular documents known as “The Papyri.” These latter are the last court of appeal on the usage of Greek words in the first century. They give two uses for aion (αἰον). In a phrase from one of these early manuscripts, “For the rest of your life,” aion (αἰον) refers to a limited period of time. A public meeting at Oxyrhynchus was punctuated with cries of “The Emperors forever,” where aion (αἰον) has the meaning of “unending.”
    They have this to say about aionios (αἰονιος). “Without pronouncing any opinion on the special meaning which theologians have found for this word, we must note that outside the New Testament, in the vernacular as well as in classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus. It is a standing epithet of the emperor’s power.” Webster’s International Dictionary derives our English word “perpetual,” meaning “continuing forever, everlasting, eternal, unceasing” (its own definition), from this Latin word perpetuus. They give as an illustration of the use of aionios (αἰονιος) the sentence, “I confess that I should show myself grateful for your loving-kindness forever.” Their closing comment on aionios (αἰονιος) is, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.”
    Our next authority is Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek, by Herman Cremer, D.D. He says of aion (αἰον): “In early Greek especially, and still also in Attic, aion (αἰον) signifies the duration of human life as limited to a certain space of time, hence the meanings, the duration of life, course of life, term of life, lifetime, life in its temporal form. From this original limitation of the conception to human life, it may be explained how it sometimes denotes the space of a human life, a human generation. Accordingly, the expansion of the conception of time unlimited was easy, for it simply involved the abstraction of the idea of limitation, and thus the word came to mean unlimited duration. Inasmuch, therefore, as aion (αἰον) may denote either the duration of a definite space of time, or the (unending) duration of time in general, both future and past, according to the context, it was the proper term for rendering the Hebrew olam (ὀλαμ),—for which the LXX (Greek translation of Old Testament) used it constantly, the only distinction being that the Hebrew word meant primarily, a remote, veiled, undefined, and therefore, unlimited time, past or future, and only secondarily, a definite (especially future) period whose limits must be ascertained by the context.”
    As to aionios (αἰονιος), Cremer has but these brief words: “Aionios (Ἀιονιος) refers to time in its duration, constant, abiding, eternal.”
    We come now to the testimony of A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D. He gives as the first meaning of aion (αἰον), age, a human lifetime, life itself, and for the second meaning, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. His meanings of aionios (αἰονιος) are, first, without beginning or end, that which has always been and always will be, second, without beginning, third, without end, never to cease, everlasting. When comparing the synonyms, aidios (αἰδιος) and aionios (αἰονιος) he says, “aidios (αἰδιος) covers the complete philosophical idea—without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end, as respects the past; it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. Aionios (Ἀιονιος) (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as suneches (συνεχες), continuous, unintermitted, diateles (διατελες), perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like aion (αἰον)); aionios (αἰονιος) accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things.”
    Finally, we quote Liddell and Scott in their Greek-English Lexicon (classical). Aion (Ἀιον) means a space or period of time, a lifetime, life, an age, generation, an indefinitely long time, a space of time, eternity. Aionios (Ἀιονιος) means lasting, eternal Dr. E. B. Pusey* quotes J. Reddel, the best Greek Oxford scholar of his day as stating that aionios (αἰονιος) in classical Greek was used strictly of eternity, an eternal existence, such as shall be, when time shall be no more.
    These authorities agree on the two meanings of aion (αἰον), that of a limited space of time, and that of eternity, never ending, everlasting, the meaning to be used in any particular instance to be determined by the context in which it is found. They also agree upon the meaning of aionios (αἰονιος), that it refers to time in its duration, constant, abiding, eternal, continuing forever, everlasting.
    Our next step will be to show that in certain passages in the New Testament where aion (αἰον) appears, it cannot be used in its meaning of “a limited space of time,” but can only mean “eternal.” These passages have to do with the being of the Son of God, His reign, His glory, His throne, His priesthood, His post-resurrection life, none of which is of limited duration, for everything about God is of infinite proportions. These are Luke 1:33, 55; John 8:35 (second occurrence), 12:34; Romans 1:25, 9:5, 11:36, 16:27; II Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 1:5; Ephesians 3:11; Philippians 4:20; I Timothy 1:17; II Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 1:8; 5:6, 6:20, 7:17, 21, 24, 28; 13:8, 21; I Peter 4:11, 5:11; II Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:6, 18, 4:9, 10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7. Instances where aionios (αἰονιος) is used, and where it can only mean “eternal,” because its context speaks of the being of God, the glory of God, and the covenant of blood are Romans 16:26; Hebrews 9:14; 13:20, I Peter 5:10. This establishes the fact that the New Testament usage of aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) includes their meaning of “eternal,” whatever other meanings the former might have in other contexts such as those of “a limited period of time” (Colossians 1:26), or “an age as characterized by a certain system of evil” (Romans 12:2). As to aionios (αἰονιος), the only places in the New Testament where it is translated by any other words than “eternal” or “everlasting” are Romans 16:25, II Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2 where it is rendered by the word “world.” But even here it refers to “that which is anterior to the most remote period in the past conceivable by any imagination that man knows of” (Expositor’s Greek Testament), namely, to the eternity before time began as we know it, time which runs concurrently with the created universe and the affairs of the human race. Thus, both aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) are used in the New Testament in their meanings of “everlasting” and “eternal.”
    Now we come to the passages in the New Testament where aionios (αἰονιος) is used in connection with the life God gives the believer when He saves him. We have seen that this word is used in connection with the being of God, and that it can only mean “eternal” in this case. But the life which God gives the believer is Christ (Col. 3:4), which means that aionios (αἰονιος) when it describes the life given the believer, must mean “eternal,” which agrees with the uniform meaning given by the four Greek authorities quoted. In all its occurrences in the New Testament, aionios (αἰονιος) never refers to a limited extent of time, but always to that which is eternal or everlasting. Even in Romans 16:25, II Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2, it refers to the eternity before time began. For the benefit of the student who does not have access to a Greek concordance, we list the passages where aionios (αἰονιος) is used in connection with the life given the believer; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25, 18:18, 30; John 3:15, 16, 36, 4:14, 36, 5:24, 39, 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68, 10:28, 12:25, 50, 17:2, 3; Acts 13:46, 48; Romans 2:7, 5:21, 6:22, 23; II Corinthians 4:17, 18; 5:1; Galatians 6:8; I Timothy 1:16, 6:12; II Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:2, 3:7; Hebrews 5:9, 9:12; I Peter 5:10; I John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:11, 13, 20; Jude 21.
     
  12. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    part two of article by wuest, greek scholar:

    This brings us to the places where aion (αἰον) is used in connection with this same life, and because this life is eternal, aion (αἰον) must mean “eternal” here, not “an age”; Mark 10:17; John 4:14, 6:51, 58, 8:51, 52, 10:28, 11:26.
    We have found that the life God gives the believer is described by two words, aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος), both meaning “eternal.” We notice now the statement of our Lord in Matthew 25:46 “These shall go away into aionios (αἰονιος) everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios (αἰονιος)) eternal.” Aionios (Ἀιονιος) means “eternal” when used with the word “life.” Does it mean “eternal” when used with the word “punishment”?
    But now we will let Dr. E. B. Pusey speak,* as he quotes Augustine on this passage, and then adds his own comment. Augustine said of this text, “What a thing it is, to account eternal punishment to be a fire of long duration, and eternal life to be without end, since Christ comprised both in that very same place, in one and the same sentence, saying, ‘These shall go into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.’ If both are eternal, either both must be understood to be lasting with an end, or both perpetual without end. For like is related to like; on the one side, eternal punishment; on the other side, eternal life. But to say in one and the same sentence, life eternal shall be without end, punishment eternal shall have an end, were too absurd: whence, since the eternal life of the saints shall be without end, punishment eternal too shall doubtless have no end to those whose it shall be.”
    Dr. Pusey adds the following to Augustine’s words: “The argument is not merely from language. It has a moral and religious aspect. Any ordinary writer who drew a contrast between two things, would, if he wished to be understood, use the self-same word in the self-same sense. He would avoid ambiguity. If he did not, we should count him ignorant of language, or if it were intentional, dishonest. I ask, ‘In what matter of this world would you trust one who in any matter of this world, should use the self-same word in two distinct senses in the self-same sentence, without giving any hint that he was so doing?’ In none. Find any case in which you would trust a man who did so in the things of men, and then ascribe it to your God in the things of God. I could not trust man. I could not believe it of my God.”
    It remains for us to examine the New Testament passages where aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) are used of the future punishment of the lost. We will look first at those passages which contain aionios (αἰονιος). In Matthew 18:8 the phrase “everlasting fire” is in the Greek “the fire which is everlasting.” The use of the definite article shows that this passage does not refer to fire in general but to a particular fire (Rev. 20:10). This fire will burn forever and is unquenchable (Mark 9:43). Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word “prepared” in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results. The Lake of Fire had been prepared before our Lord spoke these words, and is now in existence. The fires of this lake are not purifying but punitive. That is, their purpose is not to purify the wicked dead in order that they might be brought to repentance and faith with the result that they will all be finally saved, as those teach who advocate the universal restoration of the entire human race. They are for the punishment of Satan and his fallen angels, and for those of the human race who enter eternity in a lost condition. Matthew 25:46 has been dealt with above.
    As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have “sin” instead of “damnation,” which latter word appears in the A.V., as the translation of a Greek word meaning “judgment,” and which is a rejected reading. The words “in danger of” are from a Greek word which refers to anyone “held in anything so that he cannot escape.” Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage is in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have “everlasting destruction.” The Greek word translated “destruction” does not mean “annihilation.” Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: “ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.” Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings “ruin, destruction, death.” The word comes from the verb meaning “to destroy.” But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is destroyed in that it cannot be used as a home any more. It is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition of the lost will be one of utter ruin, a condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile.
    In Hebrews 6:2 we have “eternal judgment.” The word “judgment” here is from a Greek word that refers to a condemnatory sentence, aionios (αἰονιος) being used to teach that this sentence is eternal in that the punishment it prescribes is unending. In Jude 7 we have lost human beings condemned to the same everlasting fire which has been prepared for Satan and the fallen angels, the latter in verse 6 being reserved for the Great White Throne judgment and the fire prepared for them (Matt. 25:41).
    We come now to the passages in which aion (αἰον) is used. Because aionios (αἰονιος) describes the same future punishment which aion (αἰον) does, aion (αἰον) here cannot mean “a limited time,” but “eternal,” just as aionios (αἰονιος). II Peter 2:17 tells us that “the mist of darkness” is reserved for those who reject the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus. Jude 13 refers to those who like Cain refuse to place their faith in the blood of Jesus poured out on the Cross for sin, and who instead trust in their own good works. To these is reserved “the blackness of darkness forever.” The expressions in Peter and Jude are from the same words in the Greek text, except that the best Greek manuscripts omit aion (αἰον) in the first passage. It however appears in the second which refers to the same darkness. The words “mist” and “blackness” come from one Greek word for “darkness,” and the word “darkness” comes from another word meaning “darkness.” Archbishop Trench in his New Testament Synonyms says this about the word translated “mist” and “blackness”; “The zophos (ζοφος) (the former word) may be contemplated as a kind of emanation of skotous (σκοτους) (the latter). It signifies in its first meaning the twilight gloom which broods over the regions of the setting sun, and constitutes so strong a contrast to the life and light of that Orient where the sun may be said to be daily new-born.… But it means more than this. There is a darkness darker still, that, namely, of the sunless underworld.… This too it further means, namely, that sunless world itself, though indeed this less often than the gloom which wraps it.… It will at once be perceived with what fitness the word in the New Testament is employed, being ever used to signify the darkness of that shadowy land where light is not, but only darkness visible.” Such is the eternal fate of those who reject the precious blood of Jesus as the alone way of salvation from sin.
    We come to Revelation 14:9–11 where the unsaved who worship the Wild Beast, namely, the Roman emperor who is Satan’s regent in the revived Roman empire during the Great Tribulation, are said to be tormented, and where it is asserted that the smoke of their torment, that is, the smoke that issues from the cause of their torment, will ascend forever and forever, which means that their torment will be forever and forever. The Greek word translated “torment” was used in a secular document of the examination of slaves in the phrase “they under torture said.”* Thayer defines the word as follows, “to question by applying torture, to torture, to vex with grievous pains (of body and mind), in the passive sense, to be harassed, distressed.” In Revelation 20:10, the eternal torment of Satan is spoken of. Thus, God’s Word clearly teaches that the sufferings of the lost will be unending.
    How this fact speaks to us of the infinite holiness, righteousness, and justice of God, and of the awfulness of sin. But how it points us also to that Lonely Sufferer on Calvary’s Cross, and brings to our ears the dreadful pathos of that cry, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” What was it all for? The Lord Jesus suffered and died in order that by satisfying the righteous demands of the law which we violated, God might be able to offer us mercy on the basis of justice satisfied. That mercy He offers you now, unsaved reader, if you will accept it by faith in the atoning work of His Son on the Cross. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His Son, the only begotten one, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish but have everlasting life.” Put your trust in Him now, for tomorrow may be too late.
     
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    part three, of kenneth wuest on eternal hell, greek scholar:

    VI. Hell, Hades, and Tartarus


    THERE are three Greek words in the New Testament translated by the one English word “hell,” which fact results in some confusion in our thinking.
    One of these is “Gehenna (Γεηεννα).” It is the Greek representative of the Hebrew “Ge-Hinnom (Γε-Ηιννομ),” or Valley of Hinnom, a deep narrow valley to the south of Jerusalem, where, after the introduction of the worship of the fire-gods by Ahaz, the idolatrous Jews sacrificed their children to the god Molech. After the time of Josiah, when this practice was stopped, it became the common refuse-place of the city, where the bodies of criminals, carcasses of animals, and all sorts of filth were cast. From its depth and narrowness, and its fire and ascending smoke, it became the symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked. The word is used in Matthew 5:22 in the phrase “the hell of fire,” (Greek), and thus refers to the final abode of the wicked dead which is called in Revelation 19:20 “the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” This lake of fire is in existence now, for the word “prepared” in the Greek of Matthew 25:41 is in the perfect tense which refers to a past completed action having present results. Hell had been already prepared and was in existence when Jesus spoke these words. There is no one there now. The first occupants of that dreadful place will be the Beast and the false prophet, Satan following them 1000 years afterwards. Then at the Great White Throne Judgment, which occurs at the close of the Millennium, all lost human beings, the fallen angels, and the demons will also be sent there for eternity. Our word “hell” is the correct rendering of the word “Gehenna (Γεηεννα),” and should be so translated in the following passages, Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.
    The second of these words is “Hades, (ἁδες,)” which is a transliteration, not a translation, of the Greek word. When we transliterate a word we take the spelling of that word over into another language in the respective letter equivalents, whereas when we translate a word, we take the meaning over into that language. The word itself means “The Unseen.” This was the technical Greek religious term used to designate the world of those who departed this life. The Septuagint, namely, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses this word to translate the Hebrew “Sheol, (Σηεολ,)” which has a similar general meaning. The “Hades (ἁδες)” of the pagan Greeks was the invisible land, the realm of shadow, where all Greeks went, the virtuous, to that part called Elysium (Ἐλψσιυμ), the wicked, to the other part called Tartarus (Ταρταρυς).
    The difference between the pagan and Biblical conceptions of Hades is that the former conceives of Hades as the final abode of the dead, whereas the latter teaches that it is the temporary place of confinement until the Great White Throne Judgment in the case of the wicked dead, and until the resurrection of Christ, in the case of the righteous dead, the latter since that event going at once to heaven at death (Phil. 1:23).
    As the pagan conception of Hades included two parts, so the Biblical idea divided it into two parts, the one called paradise (Luke 23:43, but not II Cor. 12:4, and Rev. 2:7), or Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22), for the righteous dead, and the other part for the wicked dead having no specific designation except the general word “Hades (ἁδες)” (Luke 16:23). This Greek word is found in the following passages, to be translated and interpreted generally as “Hades, (ἁδες,)” the place of the departed dead, and for the reason that the translators of the Septuagint use this word to express in the Greek language what is meant in the Hebrew by the word “Sheol, (Σηεολ,)” the place of the departed dead.
    In Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15, Capernaum is to be brought down to the realms of the dead, presumably here to that portion of Hades reserved for the wicked, because of its rejection of the attesting miracles of our Lord. In Luke 16:23, the rich man was in Hades, that part where the wicked dead are kept until the judgment of the Great White Throne. In Acts 2:27, 31, our Lord at His death went to Hades, the passage in Acts being quoted from Psalm 16:, where the Hebrew is “Sheol. (Σηεολ.)” His soul was not left in Hades, the “paradise” portion, nor did His body in Joseph’s tomb see corruption, for He was raised from the dead on the third day. He as the Man Christ Jesus, possessing a human soul and spirit, as He possessed a human body, entered the abode of the righteous dead, having committed the keeping of His spirit to God the Father (Luke 23:46). The word “grave” in I Corinthians 15:55 is not from the word “Hades, (ἁδες,)” for the best manuscripts have the word “death,” while “Hades (ἁδες)” is a rejected reading. The translation should read, “death.”
    In Revelation 6:8, Death and Hades follow in the wake of war and famine, Hades ready to receive the dead of the Great Tribulation period. In Revelation 20:13, 14, Death itself, and Hades with all the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire.
    There are just two places where this Greek word should be translated rather than transliterated. In Revelation 1:18, our Lord has the keys or control of The Unseen and of death. That is, He is master of the unseen world which in the Christian system includes Hades, Tartarus, and the kingdom of Satan in the atmosphere of this earth.
    The other place is Matthew 16:18 where we translate “The Unseen.” The word “prevail” in the Greek means “to be strong to another’s detriment, to overpower.” The word “gates” is an orientalism for the idea of centralized legal authority. Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. Boaz went to the gate of Bethlehem to settle a legal matter with reference to his proposed marriage to Ruth. The word refers to a council. The word “hades” is out of the question here as an adequate translation, because the wicked dead in that place have no power to overcome the Church, and the righteous dead there at the time our Lord spoke these words had neither the desire nor power. The holy angels in heaven would have no such desire. All that is left in the unseen world are Satan and his demons. These constitute the Council in the Unseen that desires to bring about the destruction of the Church.
    The third word translated “hell” is in II Peter 2:4 where the Greek word is “Tartarus (Ταρταρυς),” the prison of the fallen angels that sinned at the time of the flood (Gen. 6:1–4; I Peter 3:19, 20; Jude 6).
    This brief study contains all the passages where the word “hell” is used in the New Testament, and can be used as a guide to the correct translation in each case.


    Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest’s word studies from the Greek New Testament: for the English reader (Vol. 19, pp. 34–47). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.
     
  14. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

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    See, and that is why I always say that a real deity would have chosen a better way to make their "will" know than a book.
     
  15. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Rather than post a link I will just ask the question again. My question to you was that God did not make sure we were born perfect, and it is not fair for him to judge us by a standard of perfection when he made sure we were born flawed. Care to answer that question?
     
  16. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    a book in the ancient world was really the only way to preserve history. If you don't like books, you don't like most of the history we know today.
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    sir what makes you think we were born flawed? Adam and eve were born perfect, with an option of free will. Adam and eve actually brought sin into the world, by choosing evil (after being enticed by satan), of which he was cursed as well. He could no longer leave the earth, he can leave the earth to speak with God, but he must go back to the earth and stay there. He was cursed on to his belly, so apparently there was some sort of mobility curse given to him as well, I don't fully know.
     
  18. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Doesn’t the bible say something about being “born in sin and shaped in iniquity?” If sin and iniquity are not flaws, what is?
    According to your bible, Adam and Eve were not born, they were created. And if Adam were created perfect, he would not have become lonely which prompted God to make him a woman for companion. If Eve were created perfect, she would not have fallen for the temptation.
    Again; if God knows everything, he knew making Adam and Eve the way he did would lead to us being born morally imperfect (born in sin) thus he has no moral right to insist we behave perfect; had he wanted us to do that he should have made sure we were born that way.
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    So your basic assumptions are that loneliness and having free wills are flaws, can you prove these are flaws?
     
  20. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I never said free will was a flaw. If God is perfect and has free will yet chooses not to sin because he is perfect, had Adam and Eve been just as perfect with free will, they would have chosen not to sin also.
     
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