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Esther and living Jewish in Hard Times...

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Gxg (G²), Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Doesn't deal with a lick of scripture, v--and it's an argument via emotion if one cannot address it. And for more on what David did plainly when living amongst the Philistines:


    If your approach is "Biblical", it should at the least be able to acknowledge where David lived as a Crypto-Jew and did many of the same things as Esther did. Thus far, the best that has been offered is trying to claim others don't do what's Biblical...as if that in/of itself is an argument. One can do better, especially when seeing where other Messianic Jews knowledgable on the subject of Crypto-Judaism have addressed it squarely.


    Sorry--but claiming an approach to something as "unscripture" doesn't deal with actually showing what scripture notes on how others approached situations. David was undercover--and He lied about his stances when living amongst the Philistines. That goes directly in line with the showbread instance where it was not lawful and yet he was allowed to eat it due to the intent of the Law/Torah rather than the letter of it.

    Esther was undercover, as well as eating what was set before her per the standards for Harems in the Persia Empire. It's revisionist to try altering the story to look as if it's a buffet she had available and not even deal wih historical fact....but at the worst, it's unbiblical to try ignoring that and telling oneself they are for the Will of God when they've not even come close to addressing what the Lord's will was shown plainly in scripture---and that is an issue of pretense/seeing oneself as being more than those in the scriptures are. It was already claimed earlier that those in the scriptures such as Esther or David and others were "weak" as opposed to how the scriptures praise them---and that, in/of itself, is a pride issue when not being able to follow their examples as the definition of strong. It is what it is...and when you're ready to actually address/deal with the scriptures as they are rather than ignoring them as others have often noted, then there can be real discussion of what the Will of the Lord is. Till then, what you're advocating is actually seperate from the Lord's Will..and really a matter of making your own Will as if it's His will. The two are radically different, V :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    So you do want to switch from Esther to David..
     
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    When you first deal with Esther and address the historical background of what women in Harems were allowed rather than switching/saying others do so, you can talk. Thus far, you've neither dealt with Esther or David (or others brought up besides David, like Raha, Elijah, Ezekiel, Hosea, etc)-and one can do better than that:cool: As it is, David was brought up alongside others when there was claim of there not being a precedent of allowances in Law on certain situations---and he's far from the only one. And what you noted goes starkly against what is said in Messianic Judaism at multiple points when not squaring with that and the reality of what others often had to face when Crypto-Jews were persecuted.

    Scripture must be scripture, although it's always sad to see that the scriptures cannot be accepted as they are when they diverge from what one wants or may percieve..
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    What kind of Soul Food have you had?
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    You are also placing both Esther and David on the middle of the bell curve for obedience.. rather than chosen because they were on the upper end of the bell curve...
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Incorrect..and again, it was not only DAvid as there were dozens of others (i.e Elijah with the Ravens, Rahab/lying to protect the spies, the Midwives in Exodus 1 who lied to protect the Hebrew babies from being killed, Hosea being married to one sexually immoral, etc). Being selective as if it was only one person mentioned on the subject of allowance is not a good argument, vis. And again, what matters is what the text says plainly. You've not dealt at all with Esther and showing historically where Persian regulations allowed for people to eat buffet style in a Harem, nor have you addressed others similar such as David who lied when living amongst the Philistines...and thus, you're avoiding the text to support a pressuposition you've not proven when claiming that only those eating Kosher are either godly or "strong." That's simply not Biblical...nor does it deal with how both Esther and DAVID were already on the upper bell-curve due to their walks with the Lord. Because you interpret anyone not keeping Kosher (As was the case with Esther or others) as being on the low/middle end, you read into the text what's there...and that's begging the question rather than addressing the scriptures.

    They were chosen because of their faith/trust in the Lord, just as others were chosen who never kept Kosher (i.e. Melchizedek, Job, Jethro, Noah, etc) to do mighty works for the Lord. It is what it is, sis :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  7. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    This has already been discussed. One doesn't have to eat that one little part of the meal that is non-kosher. They can "refuse" to eat it simply by concentrating on what else is on the plabe and still walk away quite satisfited thanking the cook. We Messianics do it all the time and our host is never insulted and nary a word has been spoken other than how delicious the meal was.
     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    That, however, is not the same as those in eras where it was expected to eat whatever is placed before you--without option, as was the case with Harems in the Persian empire or times of persecution as often occurred with Crypto-Jews. No one is saying, by the way, that others today don't have the option of going to a banquet and turning down those specific foods they may not prefer and avoid insulting a host....even though others today do have instances on the mission field where they must eat what's set before them/trust that the Lord will work in it as he has before. That was discussed elsewhere more in-depth here in #64 when it came to the issue of debate over going to parties/eating food that wasn't "kosher" according to some...

    What's being said is that we cannot read back into culture what we have available in the 21st century with all of our comforts/abilities, as if it was a matter of having real options in those times...and as it concerns our times today, for others who are Crypto-Jews (or later in the future), it does give illustration when they're struggling. And for those Crypto-Jews who've often noted the struggles, be it with Maranos in New Mexico or the Sephardic Jews in Spain/Portugal or many others throughout history, I must take note of that....and consider the ways the Lord's providence is at work at all times for his people :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Our lives is lived out in witness to God's Will and before whomever ... giving in .. is no witness...
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    That doesn't go with what the Lord said of his people when they were Crypto. Just as the Lord called his servants blessed, be it Rahab or David or the Hebrew Midwives noted for fearing the Lord/that being the motivation behind their lying ( Exodus 1:19-21 /Exodus 1 ) to protect baby boys...and many others...their witnesses for the Lord were in tact. The same with Esther, as she realized just as many other Jews have noted throughout the centuries where the Law already made room for allowances and the Lord commanded such. Witnessing against that goes against proper witness to His Will/Mindset.


    When any of us have been in the exact same situations as Esther/others where it's life or death (as opposed to the comforts we all have available to us behind the keyboard:cool:) or have to face what other Crypto-Jews have gone through, it's another thing entirely since it's easy to say of someone else they're weaker than others when they've never been tested.

    The scriptures must be the scriptures....and with being undercover, it's all about what the Lord deems as just at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  11. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    But what is seen in your posts, Easy, is the attempt to get permission to break God's dietary laws. After all, as you say, we are not in such a culture that we cannot choose to not break those laws instituted by God. If and when we are, like you said, God will work in it for His glory. Until then, His word stands firm - we choose to eat what He considers "food."
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Y, I don't need permission to do something when the scriptures already note plainly (As other Messianic Jewish organizations have as well, alongside JUDAISM itself) the subject of allowance in times of survival and protecting life. One must be intellecually inconsistent with the text if not trying to address that--and in many ways, making up a scenario of what they view the Law to be rather than dealing with what the scriptures said of how the Law played out.

    Sincerely, neither you nor I and others get to change up where David did what was unlawful with eating showbread (or remaining undercover in the Land of the Philistines), nor do we get to ignore Esther eating what was given to her in Esther 2 nor do you get to ignore where the Lord told Elijah to eat from ravens in hard times if claiming one wishes to deal with the WOrd. It is what it is. I don't where one really has room to assume the discussion is about getting others to "break kosher" as if I've said such since that wasn't even the main subject of the OP---for the subject of the OP also discussed what it meant in Esther 8 for many in the country to become Jews. But with that stated, IMHO, where I stand is with other Messianics noting that there needs to be honesty in seeing how what often appears is that one can make assumptions without proving them and then assuming anyone disagreeing with those assumptions doesn't agree with God's dietary laws.

    As other Messianics have often pointed it, many discussing the need to keep the Dietary laws/condeming others not lining up with their paticular stances often do not understand the Laws fully nor have they really made attempt to live fully by them--and those often tripping already give themselves allowance by trying to do them all in bits and pieces but covering it by saying "Well, we can only do so much..." when the Law makes plain how they were to be played out in FULL, with a priest and all. If others wish to keep "kosher" As that, they're welcome to. But I simply don't agree with others saying what they do is the essence of what the ceremonial laws were ever about.


    "We" as in US on this forum, in comfortable homes with freedom of speech. As made clear if actually reading the OP, what was of focus was those who are Crypto Jews in similar cases or those forced to be undercover in their faith....a seperate subject from what you noted with previous discussions of how to handle onself when invited to the house of another to eat foods one's not comfortable with...and thus, if not able to acknowledge that, IMHO, you're reading more into what I said than what was there :) Again, if nothing else, simply look up the issue of Crypto-Judaism and what it was like for Jews who had to live on the surface one way/be undercover in order to survivie. None of that has anything to do with saying it's somehow wrong for others to want to keep "Kosher" as I've never said such. What was said was that there was more than enough Biblical reasons when dealing plainly
    Amen.

    Already addressed that/mentioned it earlier, as mentioned here #64..just as other Messianics Jews (such as Dr.Michael Brown here /here ) or Arnold Fruchtenbaum (here /here ) or Dan Juster (here )have addressed that in reagrds to what is or isn't "food." If you disagree, you disagree....and life moves on in the Messianic world.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Yet David acted like a priest..
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    His acting as a priest would not be in line with the Law which allowed for Levities only to do so. As said before elsewhere in the thread where you brought up that issue, I agree with the concept of David acting as a priest. That doesn't mean he acted exactly as one within the Levitical priesthood....and the same goes for the sons of David who were known to be priests as well (even though the line of Judah had no right to the Davidic priesthood.

    And on the issue of David's sons being priests:

    2 Samuel 8:17-18 /2 Samuel 8
    Benaiah son of Jehoiada was over the Kerethites and Pelethites; and David’s sons were priests.

    If saying David's sons were priests, if correct (as the textual evidence seems unclear), one would have to suppose that membership into the priesthood was not limited to Levites in the time of DAvid. David already possessed significant power over the priesthood...with many saying he was a priest akin to Melchizedek (i.e. the king having the priest/prophet dynamic going to mirror the Messiah)--and although Zadok was indeed the high priest according to the Word, in replacement of Abithar (1 Kings 2:26-28 /1 Kings 2 , 1 Kings 1:44-46 , 1 Kings 2:34-36 , 2 Samuel 20:24-26 , 2 Samuel 15:34-36 , 2 Samuel 8:16-18 , 2 Samuel 15:23-25 / 2 Samuel 15 , 1 Chronicles 15:10-12 , 1 Chronicles 24:2-4 , 1 Chronicles 29:21-23 ), it's possible David was also priestly in a different sense.

    As said elsewhere:
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    2 Samuel 8:18 “David’s sons were chief ministers.

    I bet you are thinking no big deal.. Right? Ok in Hebrew it reads, “uVenayahu Ben Yohoyada vehakreti venality uvenei David cohanim hayu.”

    “David is a Cohen, which is a special line of the Levi priests.”
    “The only possible translation for the word Cohen in the Bible is priest, so how could the sons of David be priests?”
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Indeed. None of that was denied.

    What is denied, however, is that David's sons were Levites as others were since he was from the line of Judah--and one didn't need to be a Levite in order to be a priest.

    Actually I wasn't :cool:;)

    Your basis for this, outside of where that was mentioned here and here and here in #74 , as this doesn't deal with the whole of scripture noting where David was not a Levite and other Messianics have since addressed that one when it comes to Cohen not equating to being a Levitical minister.


    There is the example in scripture of a king (who was not a Aaronic) acting as a high priest (for example 1King 9:25)--and David, despite Zadok being the high priest, also had one named Ira the Jairit who was a priest unto David (2 Samuel 20:25-26 2 Samuel 20 ). Ira the Jairite was a native of Havvoth-jair in Gilead ( Numbers 32:41/Numbers 32:17, Deuteronomy 3:14 , etc)--and he was a descendant of Manasseh...Joseph's clan. Again, the man was a non-Levitical priest and descendant of Jair ...and in contrast to later periods it seems to have been acceptable during David's reign for the king to have a private priest who was not a Levite.

    Some think that the idea behind the phrase "chief minister" is that Ira was sort of a chaplain to David.

    For commentary from Lexicon:

    And Ira also the Jairite was a chief ruler about David
    And Ira
    `Iyra' (ee-raw')
    wakefulness; Ira, the name of three Israelites -- Ira.
    also the Jairite
    Ya'iriy (yaw-ee-ree')
    a Jairite or descendant of Jair -- Jairite.
    was a chief ruler
    kohen (ko-hane')
    literally, one officiating, a priest; also (by courtesy) an acting priest (although a layman) -- chief ruler, own, priest, prince, principal officer.


    Additionally, as Clarke's Commentary and Gill said best:

    Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
    Ira - was a chief ruler about David - The Hebrew is כהן לדויד cohen ledavid, a priest to David; and so the Vulgate, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic. The Chaldee has רב rab, a prince, or chief. He was probably a sort of domestic chaplain to the king. We know that the kings of Judah had their seers, which is nearly the same: Gad was David's seer, 2 Samuel 24:11, and Jeduthun was the seer of King Josiah, 2 Chronicles 35:16.

    The conclusion of this chapter is very similar to the conclusion of 2 Samuel 8:16-18

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    And Ira also the Jairite,.... Which some take to be the same with Ira the Ithrite, 2 Samuel 23:38; a son of Jether or Ithra the Israelite, 2 Samuel 17:25; though others suppose he was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite, 2 Samuel 23:26; and so the Targum here calls him Ira the Jairite, which was of Tekoah; and Tekoah being the chief place in Israel for oil olive (d), with which the lamps were lighted, Jarchi thinks he had the name of Jairite from Jair, which signifies to enlighten; but rather he was a descendant from Jair the Gileadite, and perhaps was a great friend to David when in Gilead, and from whence he brought him and promoted him: for he was a chief ruler about David; a prime minister, an intimate friend, the chief of his privy council; perhaps he succeeded Ahithophel; it is much we hear nothing of Hushai.


     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    In the event that it was missed (or lost), one of the main focuses within the OP was on the following:
    As mentioned before, in the LXX, it has καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν περιετέμοντο καὶ ιουδάιζον which literally translates as "and many of the nations were circumcised and became Jews." To me, that is interesting to consider since it seems that the translators of the LXX understood the concept that circumcision was necessary for a Gentile to become a Jew ...although that's not to say that circumcision alone was what made one "Jewish" since it was a lifestyle that gave fullness (as Romans 4 echoes alongside Romans 2 and other scriptures).\

    If anyone has any thoughts on that specific point, would love to hear sometime.


    Considering previous discussions about the requirements of conversion to Judaism, if anyone has any thoughts on this text from the LXX, would love to hear what others may think.
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    God didn't strike David dead in the tabernacle ..
     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    As David was beloved of the Lord/unique in a myriad of ways (as he was both a King, Priest and Prophet among other things--a type of Christ), it's no surprise he wasn't killed. But again, just because he wasn't killed didn't mean all others had a free pass to do what the Levites alone had been given instruction to do...just as it was with others throughout the scriptures (Jethro being a prominent example, as he was a priest himself/righteous man according to Exodus 2:15-17 /Exodus 2 , Exodus 3 and Exodus 18 ..and alongside him, Job in Job 1:4-6 / Job 1 who'd often offer up prayers/sacfices on behalf of his children as a regular custom--a priestly function, just like it was with Melchizedek in Genesis 14).


    It's up to the Lord to decide when/where, as He's the one who makes the rules and it's not to us to question them anymore than an employee has the right to question his boss because the boss decides to allow someone else to do something they didn't sign up for in their contract. Either the employee can assume they're in the same category as the one who is treated differently--or assume there's special treatment due to reasons they don't understand...or they can throw a fit/demand the boss treats them the same. ..or simply realize has differing requirements for others depending on what He desires and has the right to make allowance when he so chooses. In many ways, it goes back to what Yeshua noted in Matthew 20:2 with others getting angry for getting paid the same as those they felt worked "less" for it (even though the latter folks got paid according to the amount the boss set for them)--and the Boss let them know He was the focus, not them...and it was HIS money to do with as He pleased.

    So it is with David and many others, Esther being amongst them in what she did when she ate her portion of food given by the Chief Keeper of the Harems. It didn't take one being a Levite/keeping accordance with all aspects of the Levitical/Mosaic system in order to be a priest or to be holy before the Lord, nor were the standards always the same...and even within the standards a group agreed to, there was plain commands in scripture for allowances. For the Jews in captivity in Babylon and later the Persian Empire, there were many developments that occurred where many things were changed and circumstances were not as simple as they used to be...and the Lord in scripture showed how He was aware of that/understood it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    And there you have why David can go to the tabernacle and eat shewbread..
     
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