Esther and living Jewish in Hard Times...

[Gxg (G²)]

Esther 8:16-17 Esther 8
And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came , the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews ; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.​

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One Night With The King ​

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Been going through Esther's story lately and it has been interesting to see the way things developed....as the way her story developed is truly fascinating--and very encouraging when it comes to seeing the ways that the Lord may work with what may seem to be coincidences. Although I've heard many excellent teachings/sermons on the subject ( should one right click here to download this sermon), something that stood out to me recently is that in the LXX, it has καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν περιετέμοντο καὶ ιουδάιζον which literally translates as "and many of the nations were circumcised and became Jews." To me, that is interesting to consider since it seems that the translators of the LXX understood the concept that circumcision was necessary for a Gentile to become a Jew ...although that's not to say that circumcision alone was what made one "Jewish" since it was a lifestyle that gave fullness (as Romans 4 echoes alongside Romans 2 and other scriptures).


Considering previous discussions about the requirements of conversion to Judaism, if anyone has any thoughts on this text from the LXX, would love to hear what others may think.

Something that was also interesting when considering Esther's example is what Esther 2:9 notes, as she was a Crypto-Jew living in a nation notorious for being anti-semitic at times....and as she was told by her uncle to keep her ethnic heritage quiet, he blended in with the people who'd later convert to what her background was about. Esther 2:9 notes how she daily recieved her portion of food, which many have noted as indicating that she appeared not to observe Jewish dietary laws...a concern to early interpreters. For in this, she stands as a contrast to Daniel (Daniel 1:8-20) who lived earlier than she did.......and some have noted how her actions were perhaps to conceal her identity.


As one Jewish individual noted:

Esther, the heroine, is the most fully developed character in the Book. She emerges from being a compliant maiden to being Mordecai’s partner and an authoritative leader. Esther originally appears as a compliant young girl and respectful to her adoptive father Mordecai. She is equally compliant in the hands of Hegai, the custodian of the harem. She graciously accepts his beautifying lessons for herself (2:9). The women spend six months being purified with oil of myrrh and six additional months being purified with sweet perfumes (2:12). Do they learn the role of the women in that society? Did she learn the king’s sexual preferences? Esther went to the king for her one night. The norm was a night with the King and then back into the harem as a concubine. There is no mention in this very gourmet food and drink oriented environment she asked for kosher food. In fact we are told that ‘she did not ask for anything beyond what had been assigned her by Hegai’ (2:15). This is stark contrast to Daniel in Babylon where the book clearly informs of his need for kosher food (1:8).

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And yet the Lord was presrnt throughout the text working things for her favor/that of her people...showing how He works with those in desperate times/situations and bringing glory to Himself For those within the world of Crypto-Judaism (as discussed here or as discussed here and here ) , it often seems that Esther's story truly does offer hope and real life examples of how things aren't always as easy as others may make it out to be when it comes to living according to what one knows of the Lord---and yet the Lord is able to work in it.





For some excellent articles on what the Lord used Esther to teach, one can go here or to the following:

• Esther Bible Study
• The Festival of Purim
• Queen Esther of the Bible
• A Brief History of Persian Empire
• Preparing the Bride of Christ « Kingdom Precepts Ministries
• Miss Persia (Esther 1:1-2:18) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible ...
• Esther - Bible study commentary, notes, questions, and comments ...
  

Shalom

 

[visionary]

If Esther ordered the feast, she would also put in her request as to what she would like to see on the menu... God gives us a bounty of foods to choose from without crossing the line.. I do it all the time without any mention of my preference or the reason for the preference. My guests love my cooking and the wonderful meals I prepare..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If Esther ordered the feast, she would also put in her request as to what she would like to see on the menu... God gives us a bounty of foods to choose from without crossing the line....


I do it all the time without any mention of my preference or the reason for the preference. My guests love my cooking and the wonderful meals I prepare

Esther only ordered feasts after she was made queen...for the King made a banquet for here ( Esther 2:17-19 Esther 2 ) and later she made one for the king when preparing to reveal her identity (Esther 5:3-5 / Esther 5 , Esther 7:1-3 / Esther 7 , etc ), and prior to that she was required to eat what the Eunuch gave her...who didn't know she was a Crypto-JEW.

With ladies in a Harem, they didn't have the right to demand what kind of food they wanted...but with Esther's humility/submission, she set herself up in a position to achieve favor/advancement in the Harem. It wasn't like a cafeteria where one had a choice since what the King felt others needed to eat was what they ate in Persia.

Esther 2:9
9 And the young woman pleased him and won his favor. And he quickly provided her with her cosmetics and her portion of food, and with seven chosen young women from the king's palace, and advanced her and her young women to the best place in the harem.
Esther 2:9 : Esth 2:3, 12


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Later on, after being made Queen, she'd be able to do what she wanted

 

[visionary]

Esther only ordered feasts after she was made queen...for the King made a banquet for here ( Esther 2:17-19 Esther 2 ) and later she made one for the king when preparing to reveal her identity (Esther 5:3-5 / Esther 5 , Esther 7:1-3 / Esther 7 , etc ), and prior to that she was required to eat what the Eunuch gave her...who didn't know she was a Crypto-JEW.

With ladies in a Harem, they didn't have the right to demand what kind of food they wanted...but with Esther's humility/submission, she set herself up in a position to achieve favor/advancement in the Harem. It wasn't like a cafeteria where one had a choice since what the King felt others needed to eat was what they ate in Persia.

Esther 2:9
9 And the young woman pleased him and won his favor. And he quickly provided her with her cosmetics and her portion of food, and with seven chosen young women from the king's palace, and advanced her and her young women to the best place in the harem.
Esther 2:9 : Esth 2:3, 12


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Later on, after being made Queen, she'd be able to do what she wanted

Harlem food is not prison food.. The food in the King's court is not substandard, nor lacking in abundance.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Harlem food is not prison food.. The food in the King's court is not substandard, nor lacking in abundance.

No one said that the food for the Harems was substandard or lacking in abundance. What was noted is that a Harem had not right to demand the kind of food she wanted in the Persian empire, as they were essentially slaves of the king and whatever he desired. Although they were well taken care of and the food was always superb, there's no evidence in history that they had freedom of choice to choose what kind of excellent food they wanted. They ate what was given to them. If Esther was given non-kosher food, she would not have had the option to say she didn't want to eat what was given. When she became Queen, she'd have more options at directing what food she desired---but as apart of the King's Harem, they simply didn't have those rights at the level they were at.

 

[visionary]

I have eaten at unkosher tables of plenty and able to sustain myself with my diet that God would approve of, without lacking.. and so could Esther.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have eaten at unkosher tables of plenty and able to sustain myself with my diet that God would approve of, without lacking.. and so could Esther.

You haven't, however, eaten in the Persian empire nor have you been apart of a Harem where rights were restricted. What we do in the 21st century isn't the same as what Esther faced in that era...nor is it the same as what many Crypto-Jews faced, be it Sephardic or Maranos and others, when there were not options If trying to base what Esther did off of what you have available, it'd not be historical. That'd be like saying that the Jews should've fought back in Babylon with weapons/self-defense simply because Jews today have weapons and know self-defense when they're prisoners. The situations are radically different..

They didn't make Kosher food for women in the Harem when they asked since the women were expected to eat what was set before them (as they were virtual slaves). It was not a "Golden Coral" Buffet where the women could choose what they wanted while avoiding the unkosher aspects if they wanted to....for that was not their right.

 

[visionary]

You haven't, however, eaten in the Persian empire nor have you been apart of a Harem where rights were restricted. What we do in the 21st century isn't the same as what Esther faced in that era...nor is it the same as what many Crypto-Jews faced, be it Sephardic or Maranos and others, when there were not options

But it is do able.. without going against God's diet plan..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

But it is do able.. without going against God's diet plan..

Provided that the food given has Kosher options. If the Persians decided to give all of the women food that the Jews happened to eat, that'd be one thing. However, just as it was with Daniel in Babylon, food given that was not in line with the Law could only be rejected with outright denial of the governmental system and acknowledgement of God's standards....and only then could other options be given. With Esther, as she kept her identity secret and did exactly as her masters asked when she was undercover, there's no way of supposing that the food she had was Kosher. She ate what was given to her/did what she had to do in order to survive and the Lord doesn't condemn that anymore than David was condemned for eating the showbread in the temple even though it may've not be lawful.

 

[visionary]

OK.. Esther to you was without consciousness in her eating habits.. mine Esther was very conscious of her eating habits..even under tough situations..

 

[ChavaK]

Harlem food is not prison food..

Soul food?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

OK.. Esther to you was without consciousness in her eating habits... mine Esther was very conscious of her eating habits..even under tough situations

She didn't have to be without consciousness, v, in choosing to use wisdom/see the intent of the Law anymore than it was with David/the SHowbread or Rahab in lying/giving false testimony to protect the spies or Joseph in Egypt and a host of others (more discussed here ). It's inaccurate to claim the scriptures don't already lay out the principle that life/survival always takes precedence in a host of situations..and that there were times it was necessary to go against it for a larger goal. And that's a basic principle people in Judaism have often noted when it comes to what the scriptures note.


She could've been conscious of eating habits (just as other Crypto-Jews have been throughout history when in similar situations) in setting the stage for her having more freedom when she became Queen---and later, causing others all around to become Jews because of the fear of the Jews that arose with her/Mordecai becoming exalted. If there's a pressuposition that kosher was commanded by the Lord to be kept in all instances, it's not surprising to see that read into the text/seeing Esther in a negative light for eating what she had..but that doesn't even go with history.

One, it doesn't line up with history since the Persian empire did not seem to give those in the Harem options of what they wanted to eat since they were virtual slaves---thus eliminating the scenario where Esther/others would be able to choose food that was Kosher if they wanted to.

Two, it doesn't line up with history since the Lord already set precedence with going beyond it if the situation determined it. In practical example, one can consider Elijah who was fed by the Lord via unclean ravens at the Lord's command in I Kings 17. Since Elijah was already out in the wilderness, he was in fact ALREADY outside the social boundaries, and so he is already ritually unclean according to the ancient mindset, and "a bit more raven spit isn't going to make him any worse off." And on boundaries, it'd be NO MORE Far off than Ezekiel, when he cooked over dung in Ezekiel 4:14-16/ Ezekiel 4 ... or Isaiah, when he walked around naked in Isaiah 20:3 ... or Hosea, when he married a harlot in Hosea 1:2-4 / Hosea 1 . With Ezekiel, it's interesting when seeing how he cooked over dung in Ezekiel 4:14-16/ Ezekiel 4 ... for Ezekiel raises no objections to God's Speech until he is told to use human excrement/waste (dung) for fuel. For animal fuel is a common fuel ( 1 Kings 14:9-11 1 Kings 14 )--and Ezekiel was a priest/would have been careful to keep all the laws that God Himself had set up. This circumstance of the sign, the baking of his bread with man's dung, was something he humbly asked be dispensed with since it seemed to have in it something of a ceremonial pollution, for there was a law that man's dung should be covered with earth, that God might see no unclean thing in their camp ( Deuteronomy 23:12-14). Because Ezekiel with a manifest tenderness of conscience made this scruple, God dispensed with him in this matter. Ezekiel protested and God submitted to His request out of mercy. The actions seem to represent an example of God's condescension/graciouness to Ezekiel, though God's authority is incontestable/ all his commands are wise/ good. For God allowed Ezekiel to use cow's dung instead of man's dung, Ezekiel 4:15...not because He thought it was bad what He FIRST commanded...but because of MERCY. But what's still heavy for me to consider is that if God said "No!" to Ezekiel's request, would he have still eaten?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Soul food?

SOul Food's more son in the good ol' South But the food up in Harlem is still amazing regardless

 

[visionary]

She didn't have to be without consciousness, v, in choosing to use wisdom/see the intent of the Law anymore than it was with David/the SHowbread or Rahab in lying/giving false testimony to protect the spies or Joseph in Egypt and a host of others (more discussed here ). It's inaccurate to claim the scriptures don't already lay out the principle that life/survival always takes precedence in a host of situations..and that there were times it was necessary to go against it for a larger goal. And that's a basic principle people in Judaism have often noted when it comes to what the scriptures note. If there's a pressuposition that kosher was commanded by the Lord to be kept in all instances, it's not surprising to see that read into the text/seeing Esther in a negative light for eating what she had..but that doesn't even go with history.

Since Elijah was already out in the wilderness, he was in fact ALREADY outside the social boundaries, and so he is already ritually unclean according to the ancient mindset, and "a bit more raven spit isn't going to make him any worse off." And on boundaries, it'd be NO MORE Far off than Ezekiel, when he cooked over dung in Ezekiel 4:14-16/ Ezekiel 4 ... or Isaiah, when he walked around naked in Isaiah 20:3 ... or Hosea, when he married a harlot in Hosea 1:2-4 / Hosea 1


With Ezekiel, Ezekiel 4:14-16 , it is interesting to see that Ezekiel raises no objections to God's Speech until he is told to use human excrement/waste (dung) for fuel. For animal fuel is a common fuel ( 1 Kings 14:9-11 1 Kings 14 )--and Ezekiel was a priest/would have been careful to keep all the laws that God Himself had set up. This circumstance of the sign, the baking of his bread with man's dung, was something he humbly asked be dispensed with since it seemed to have in it something of a ceremonial pollution, for there was a law that man's dung should be covered with earth, that God might see no unclean thing in their camp ( Deuteronomy 23:12-14). Because Ezekiel with a manifest tenderness of conscience made this scruple, God dispensed with him in this matter. Ezekiel protested and God submitted to His request out of mercy. The actions seem to represent an example of God's condescension/graciouness to Ezekiel, though God's authority is incontestable/ all his commands are wise/ good. For God allowed Ezekiel to use cow's dung instead of man's dung, Ezekiel 4:15...not because He thought it was bad what He FIRST commanded...but because of MERCY. But what's still heavy for me to consider is that if God said "No!" to Ezekiel's request, would he have still eaten?

She could've been conscious of eating habits (just as other Crypto-Jews have been throughout history when in similar situations) in setting the stage for her having more freedom when she became Queen---and later, causing others all around to become Jews because of the fear of the Jews that arose with her/Mordecai becoming exalted.

Like I said.. either weak in faith.. or strong..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Like I said.. either weak in faith.. or strong..

Like I said, there's no evidence for one being "weak in the faith" or "strong"--and all the saints, be it Esther or David with the showbread (although it was unlawful) or Rahab/the spies and others--were called strong for their actions. Thus, those disagreeing today with what they did may be more in the weak side than they realize if they cannot deal with what they did in the context it occurred in---and how the Lord approved of them. One is not stronger than them if claiming they eat Kosher since the Lord never based strength in Him on that basis...and it's reinterpreting history to ignore that/resort to claiming others like Esther were weak in the faith for doing what she had to do as a Crypto Jew--and by default, claiming all other Crypto-Jews in persecution/forced to be underground are not "strong" as others are who eat kosher at all times



Romans 14, however, speaks to that alot...

 

[visionary]

Like I said, there's no evidence for one being "weak in the faith" or "strong"--and all the saints, be it Esther or David with the showbread (although it was unlawful) or Rahab/the spies and others--were called strong for their actions. Thus, those disagreeing today with what they did may be more in the weak side than they realize if they cannot deal with what they did in the context it occurred in---and how the Lord approved of them. One is not stronger than them if claiming they eat Kosher

Romans 14, however, speaks to that alot...

She is on the King's court representing her people and they are aware of her every move.. They are praying for her,.. she is praying for them.. in all things, she is making conscious decisions to represent her people and God.. do you think she is going to break down over the food that she is putting in her mouth... and misrepresent her people, her God?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

She is on the King's court representing her people and they are aware of her every move

And told, as the text makes plain, by her uncle to keep her identity SECRET.

Esther 2:10
Esther had not revealed her nationality and family background, because Mordecai had forbidden her to do so.
Esther 2:9-11 Esther 2
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Only later in Esther 7:4 did she reveal to the king her connection with the Jews...and also, in Esther 8:1-3 Esther revealed her nationality/relationship with the Jew Mordecai...but prior to that, she kept quiet about it/blended in as much as possible for the sake of survival.

This is no different that what occurred with David in I Samuel 27 and 1 Samuel 29 when he hid amongst the Philistines/worked for them as a Double-Agent for them when fleeing from Saul, lying in the process to keep cover/living amongst them (as discussed here before in #39, #35, #36 , and #38 , regarding piracy in the Jewish world) ...alongside other things such as his living in the Philistine land/acting as if he was crazy (with saliva coming off his beard, after writing Psalm 34) and the Showbread incident that happened way earlier.

They are praying for her,.. she is praying for them.. in all things, she is making conscious decisions to represent her people and God

Making conscious decisions does not change the text or the history of what was allowed. However much room she was given to represent the Lord, she did so--and where there was feedom to leave some things be, she did so.

.. do you think she is going to break down over the food that she is putting in her mouth... and misrepresent her people, her God

Again, the scriptures notes what it does as does history. Whether or not it is agreed upon has nothing to do with what the text makes plain---nor does what you say deal with where the Lord didn't take food as seriously as you claim since it was already noted earlier where he gave allowance for others to go outside of it in certain circumstances...be it with Elijah and Ravens, Ezekiel or Hosea/the Harlot or David and the Showbread (as it was unlawful) and many others, the Word already shows where the Lord was represented well in allowance during times he wanted. Claiming those who did so under his command are somehow "misrepresenting" the Lord actually misrepresents God in the process---and shows that what He commanded is not enough for us when we wish to be a certain way all the time.

 

[visionary]

If you want to switch to the conversation about the rights of David to shewbread.. we can discuss that also..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If you want to switch to the conversation about the rights of David to shewbread.. we can discuss that also..

Anyone can discuss that at anytime they wish, as it was already mentioned earlier in the thread/directly in connection with the situation of Esther...specifically, in #12 when it came to discussion on the intent of the Law and going through examples such as David/the SHowbread (as well as I Samuel 27 and 1 Samuel 29 when he was living undercover/lying amongst the Philistines) or Rahab in lying/giving false testimony to protect the spies or Joseph in Egypt and a host of others (more discussed here and discussed here when the issue was brought up/you made a response I already responded to about David/SHowbread ).

But the focus is ultimately upon Esther/her actions and how the Lord utilized them, as the immediate text and history of the Persian Empire/its regulations for those in the Harem.

 

[visionary]

Your approach to what David done is like it was against the Will of God.. mine isn't
Your approach to what Esther did was like it against the Will of God.. mine isn't