Eschatology for dummies :)

[jgr]

How can preterism be heretical and futurism not.
They are both Jesuit teachings.

A profoundly relevant question.

There is far more heresy in hyperfuturism's hallucinatory declarations and denials than in hyperpreterism's overfulfillments. As a prime example, the attribution, in a hyperfuturized decapitated 70th week, of Christ's finished work at Calvary to antichrist; comes as close to irreversible heresy as any cultic or pagan pronouncement. (Matthew 12:22-32)

Both hypers should be proscribed, but hyperfuturism even much more than hyperpreterism.

 

[Radagast]

Partial Preterism changes the words "all or essentially all" to "most." They believe that the Lord will come in the future, but almost every other prophesied event had taken place by the end of the first century. Since Partial Preterism does not deny a future coming of the Lord, it is allowed here.

Partial Preterism changes the words "all or essentially all" to "some."

 

[Biblewriter]

How can preterism be heretical and futurism not.
They are both Jesuit teachings.

Preterism was indeed first taught by a Jesuit. But Futurism was the STANDARD doctrine of almost all Christian writers previous to the fifth century. In fact, Jerome called futurism “the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church.”

 

[Biblewriter]

FUTURISTS agree that SOME prophecies have been fulfilled.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Another visual that compares the differences has to do with Daniel 9:24-27 (mentioned by Jesus as quoted in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:15) is this one:

The preterist view has no gap and is a continual length of 70 "weeks":

.......but the futurist view has a gap - like a pause in time:

....but, like Claninja posted a while back (hopefully this doesn't confuse things too much):

If there is a gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement

....by looking at the graphic, do you see what he means (this belief places Christ's ministry and death on the cross in a "gap" of time - outside of the 70 weeks).

This article also presents a simple comparison of the two: Bible Made Simple: Does the Bible Teach a 7 Year Tribulation Period?

Thanks so much! This is great information!

 

[worshipjunkie]

Preterism is the belief that all or essentially all of the events prophesied in the Bible had taken place by the end of the first century. As this includes a claim that the Lord returned in the first century, it is considered heretical on this site and is therefore banned from discussion here.

Partial Preterism changes the words "all or essentially all" to "most." They believe that the Lord will come in the future, but almost every other prophesied event had taken place by the end of the first century. Since Partial Preterism does not deny a future coming of the Lord, it is allowed here.

Historism is the belief that most of the events of Bible prophecy have taken place during the (now nearly 2000 year long) history of the church. They believe the Lord's return is future.

Idealism is the belief that most, if not all, the Bible is allegorical. That is, it does not actually mean what it says. And this, when applied to eschatology, means that they believe that none, or at least very few, of the prophecies in the Bible actually mean mean what the say.

Most of of the believers in these schools of thought are amillennial, that is, they do not believe there will literally be a "millennium," which is the name given to a thousand year period which the Bible said would take place.

All of these, of curse, have subdivisions, but not believing any of them, I have not studied these subdivisions and know very little about them.

Futurism is the belief that most of the events of Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the future. They recognize that some of these events have already taken place. But they reject that notion for basically all claims about past fulfillments except those that the Bible explicitly tells us have been fulfilled.

Some futurists are also amillennial, but most of them are millennial. That is, they believe that the prophesied 1000 year period will be literally fulfilled after the Lord comes to judge the world.

Of those futurists who are millennial some are pre-millennial. This means that they believe that the Lord will take the church to heaven before the millennium. Others are post-millennial. This means that they believe that the Lord will take the church to heaven after the millennum. These two names are sometimes hyphenated, and sometimes given as separate words.

Of the futurists that are pre-millennial, there are various views about precisely when the Lord will take the church to heaven. This event is called "the rapture."

Essentially all pre-mllennial futurists believe that just before the millennium, there will be a future time of unparalleled trouble, which they call "the tribulation," which they believe will end when the Lord comes to judge the wicked and to set up "the millennium." And most of them believe this time of trouble will last seven years, with a defining moment at its half way point.

But among the pre-millennial futurists, there are various views about when "the rapture" will take place, in relation to "the tribulation."

Some pre-millennial futurists are also "pre-tribbers." That means that they believe "the rapture" will take place before "the tribulation." And most of these think it will take place immediately before the tribulation.

Other pre-millennial futurists are "mid-tribbers." his means that they believe "the rapture will take place at the middle of "the tribulation." And yet others are "pre-wrath." This means that they think that "the rapture" will take place near the end of "the tribulation," just before an time of particularly intense trouble, which the call "the wrath." Most of these think this time of wrath will be the last 75 days of "the tribulation."

Still other pre-millennial futurists are post tribbers. this means that they believe the rapture will take place after the end of "the tribulation."

There are also two schools of thought, beside idealism, which I have already mentioned, about the scriptures in general, which vastly influence views on eschatology.

One of these is Covenant Theology. This is the belief that God has had two covenants in place throughout the time of His working with mankind. Most of those who subscribe to this concept think that when a prophecy in the Bible says Israel, that means "the church." And when it says either "Jerusalem" or "the land," that means "heaven."

The other main school of thought is Dispensationalism. That is the belief that, from time to time, God changes the way He relates to mankind. They believe that these changes are not random, as it were trying "plan B" when "plan A did not work." Instead, they believe that these changes are all a part of an overall plan that God has had in place from the very beginning. And that plan is to demonstrate that mankind will fail under any conceivable situation. Most Dispensationalists think that this plan includes seven distinct periods, each of which they call a "Dispensation," and that we are currently in the sixth of these seven "Dispensations." But those who held this view in the ancient (ante-Nicene to early post-Nicene) church saw fewer distinct periods. This view results in a conclusion that "the church" and "Israel" are two entirely different groups, and have entirely different destinies. They believe that "the church" will be taken to heaven and blessed there for all eternity. And they believe that in "the millennium," "Israel" will be brought back to her ancient homeland and will there be brought to repentance and will afterwards be blessed forever "on this earth."

Due to the shortness of this post, this summary is highly over-simplified. But it is a general overview of the main schools of thought concerning eschatology, and the meanings of the names given to the various views.

Full disclosure: I am a pre-trib, pre-millennial, futurist who has published books on Bible prophecy and on the history of prophetic interpretation.

Thank you for this! This clarifies a lot of the terms for me.

 

[klutedavid]

Thank you for all the information! So, putting together what I'm hearing, I guess I'm a partial preterist? I don't believe all the prophecies were referring to AD 70 but I certainly believe some of them were. From what I understand of the Reformed position, for example, it's preterist? Just trying to get a handle on what these names mean.

There are two views in the preterist camp; full preterism and partial preterism.

 

[Marilyn C]

Would it be possible, for us newbies, to get a thread explaining these schools of thought and terminology? Preferably one without debate- just a plain boring explanation of things. I know what I believe, and I know some of the terms, but others are completely new to me. Thanks!

Hi Sara,

Pleased to meet you. Now I quite understand the confusion for there are so many variations. However....I believe there is on simple way to understand God`s purposes, which eschatology, (a study of end times) is all about.

God`s purpose is to have His Son the Lord Jesus Christ rule over every area of God`s great kingdom - The third heaven, (angelic realm) the universe, the earth. Then in each realm there will be those who are called out to rule there. Thus we have 3 groups - the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations.

All God`s word is for us to read, but it is NOT all about us. When you read see whom God is speaking to. There are truths for us to learn but the specific inheritances are different.

The Body of Christ - the third heaven.
The righteous in Israel - the Universe, (New Jerusalem)
Israel and the nations - the earth.

All the errors come from putting people in the wrong area, or lumping us all together, or missing out a group.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Christian Gedge]

A couple of my diagrams of the major views.

1. Pre-millennial view

1. A-millennial view

​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for all the information! So, putting together what I'm hearing, I guess I'm a partial preterist? I don't believe all the prophecies were referring to AD 70 but I certainly believe some of them were. From what I understand of the Reformed position, for example, it's preterist? Just trying to get a handle on what these names mean.

If one wants to stick mainly with 70ad,
then I would highly recommend studying on the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple Discourses in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html

• Matthew 24:2

• Matthew 24:4,5,26 -"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

• Matthew 24:13 - "But he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

• Matthew 24:14 - 'And this gospel.. shall be preached in all the world.. and then shall the end come.'

• Matthew 24:15 - 'When ye therefore see the abomination of desolation..

• Matthew 24:16 - 'Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountain..'

• Matthew 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation"

• Matthew 24:27 - 'as the lightening cometh out of the east..'

• Matthew 24:28 - 'For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.'

• Matthew 24:29 - '..the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.'

• Matthew 24:30a - '...and then shall all the tribes of the earth (land) mourn...'

• Matthew 24:30b - '..and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven..'

• Matthew 24:34 - 'Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.' | Robertson's Word Pictures

• Matthew 24:35 - 'Heaven and earth shall pass..'

• Matthew 24:36 (Mk. 13:32) - 'of that day and hour knoweth no man..' (Mark: "neither the Son") / Transition Text?

• Matthew 26:64 - "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven"

Matthew 24:
3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west,
thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man

39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away.
Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.

=====================

• Mark 13 Olivet Discourse

• Mark 16 "Long Ending"

• Luke 21:22 - "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

===============================================

I have pretty much completed my harmonizing of those 3 discourses for those interested;

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Someone had recommended this site to me, so I am going to use it to help with harmonizing:

Matthew and Mark both mention "buildings" #3619, and these 3 verses in Matt and Mark are the only place in the Gospels #3619 is used.

All 3 mention the 70ad Temple, stones, and stone upon another........

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

This site should have been named "eschatologyarchive",
as people look at the name and automatically think Preterism.
.
My view would be that
Jesus and the Apostles [including Paul] were futurists,
after 70ad the 1st century Christian Jews became preterists.

Here are topics on that site which also included debates between the various eschatological views.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html
STUDY TOPICS

STUDY ARCHIVES: Amillennialism | Apocalyptic | Christian Zionism | Dispensationalism | Eschatology | Hermeneutics | Historicism | Idealism | Millennial Reign of Christ | Preterism | New Covenant Theology | Postmillennialism | Premillennialism | Pre-Tribulational Rapture | Reconstructionism | "Seventy Weeks" | Parousia | Universalism | J.N. Darby | Jerry Falwell | Thomas Ice | Tim LaHaye | Hal Lindsey | C.I. Scofield | Jack and Rexella Van Impe | John F. Walvoord | Christian Zionism and Salvation for the Jews | Philip Mauro: The Gospel of the Kingdom & The Hope of Israel




.

 

[Douggg]

Would it be possible, for us newbies, to get a thread explaining these schools of thought and terminology? Preferably one without debate- just a plain boring explanation of things. I know what I believe, and I know some of the terms, but others are completely new to me. Thanks!

Everything is about events leading up to and regarding Jesus's Second Coming.

The major views
1. historist view - generally believe the pope/papacy are the arch villain of the end times. Developed out of the middle ages reformation movement.
2. partial preterist view - believe that most of the prophecies have been fulfilled by in 70AD
3. futurist view - generally believe that most of the prophecies are still ahead

Amillennial vs Premillennial:
see post #49 by Christian Gedge

Rapture timing views
Pre-tribulation (actually means pre-70th week)
Mid-tribulation (sometime in the middle of the 70th week)
Pre-wrath (before the wrath of God begins)
Post-tribulation (actually means the day Jesus returns)

Lesser common:
No rapture
Anytime Rapture (my view)
____________________________________________________________

What to study...

Three passages you must learn just starting out.
1. Daniel 9:26 -27
2. Matthew 24:14-31
3. Revelation 13
___________________________________________________________

terms to learn about:

(arch villain of the end times, as)
the little horn person
the prince who shall come person
the Antichrist person
the revealed man of sin person
the beast person

the false prophet person
the two witnesses
the ten kings
the seven kings

the four kingdoms - Daniel 2, 7

Mystery Babylon the great
_____________________________________________________________

timeline knowledge:

task - develop a timeline

the week - Daniel 9:27
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, 12:6
42 months - Revelation 11:2, 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, 12:7
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
____________________________________________________________

required Revelation events knowledge:

The seven seals
The seven trumpets
The seven bowls of God's wrath
_____________________________________________________________

Objectives:

Glorification of Jesus

Kingdom of God brought to the earth

Redemption of the believers' bodies; transformation of the living, resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Reuniting of loved ones and friends

Destruction of Satan, his angels, his kingdom

 

[mkgal1]

I'm confused about what you're calling the "reformed position", Worshipjunkie. I listened to this sermon, from a Dutch reformed Church:

Watching In Hope | Ken Boonstra

.....but then this website linked below is titled "reformed eschatology" and it's the opposite of the first sermon:

PRETERISM 101: By David Green – I.F.E.

 

[Douggg]

Would it be possible, for us newbies, to get a thread explaining these schools of thought and terminology? Preferably one without debate- just a plain boring explanation of things. I know what I believe, and I know some of the terms, but others are completely new to me. Thanks!

Terms.

The most misunderstood term inside of and outside of Christianity.

"the Antichrist"

There are roles that the person goes through. But the role of the Antichrist is actually not directly in the text of the bible. The role of the Antichrist and him being a messiah figure - is only relevant to being the perceived King of Israel. And it takes knowing what the term "the Christ" means, biblically speaking.

Jesus was "the Christ", the messiah, the King of Israel descended from King David - but was rejected by Israel and Jerusalem. It is only by being instead of Jesus, and against Jesus, in terms of being the King of Israel that the person forthcoming can be the Antichrist. ...for a limited time.

John 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark 15:
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
______________________________________________________________________

The concept of the Antichrist is the most misunderstood concept in Christianity (and outside of Christianity).

When being the Antichrist is properly understood it eliminates nearly every end times theory out there.

 

[worshipjunkie]

I'm confused about what you're calling the "reformed position", Worshipjunkie. I listened to this sermon, from a Dutch reformed Church:

Watching In Hope | Ken Boonstra

.....but then this website linked below is titled "reformed eschatology" and it's the opposite of the first sermon:

PRETERISM 101: By David Green – I.F.E.

Most Reformed sites I've read are post or amillennial and don't believe in a rapture. That's why I said that. Someone who is Reformed could probably give better info.

 

[David Kent]

Everything is about events leading up to and regarding Jesus's Second Coming.

The major views
1. historist view - generally believe the pope/papacy are the arch villain of the end times. Developed out of the middle ages reformation movement.

Not true. That the papacy was Antichrist was recgnised by the Walsensisans in their Treatise on Antichrist c. AD 1200 well before the reformation. Jan Huss who was martyred 100 years before the reformation wrote many letters to the English Lollards concerning the Papal Antichrist.

 

[David Kent]

Preterism was indeed first taught by a Jesuit. But Futurism was the STANDARD doctrine of almost all Christian writers previous to the fifth century. In fact, Jerome called futurism “the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church.”

Absolutely not true. No matter how many times you repeat it doesn't make it true. For instance, Tertullian said that in Revelation the Temple referred to the Church. He said that references to to Jews referred to Christians, and the 144.000 referred to Christian virgins. Other early theologians agreeg with some of his points. They nearly all taught that the Roman Empire would split into 10. (That was fulfilled so they were correct in that.) Then the Antichrist would come. (And in the papacy, they were correct in that.) They mostly taught that the let and hinrance in 2 Thess 2. was the Roman Empirere (The what) and the Emperor (The who.) Paul said 2You know what) Tetullian said "We know."

 

[Douggg]

Not true. That the papacy was Antichrist was recgnised by the Walsensisans in their Treatise on Antichrist c. AD 1200 well before the reformation. Jan Huss who was martyred 100 years before the reformation wrote many letters to the English Lollards concerning the Papal Antichrist.

David, would you accept if changed to - gained its strength in the time of the 16th century reformation movement which resulted in the formation of protestant churches?

 

[Radagast]

.....but then this website linked below is titled "reformed eschatology" and it's the opposite of the first sermon:

PRETERISM 101: By David Green – I.F.E.

That website calls itself Reformed, but it is not Reformed.

As @worshipjunkie says, Reformed eschatology is amillennial or postmillennial.

And, as a side-issue, please don't get your teaching from random internet websites.

 

[Biblewriter]

Absolutely not true. No matter how many times you repeat it doesn't make it true. For instance, Tertullian said that in Revelation the Temple referred to the Church. He said that references to to Jews referred to Christians, and the 144.000 referred to Christian virgins. Other early theologians agreeg with some of his points. They nearly all taught that the Roman Empire would split into 10. (That was fulfilled so they were correct in that.) Then the Antichrist would come. (And in the papacy, they were correct in that.) They mostly taught that the let and hinrance in 2 Thess 2. was the Roman Empirere (The what) and the Emperor (The who.) Paul said 2You know what) Tetullian said "We know."

Actually, you are the one who is wresting what the early church actually taught.
I have documented their doctrines at length both here,at:

What the early church actually taught What the early church actually taught. part 1

Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.

And in my book, titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, poublished by Dispensational Publishing House.

 

[jgr]

.