Eschatology for dummies :)

[claninja]

Do you know what the Jews say in their arguments to say Jesus in not the messiah? They say that there are no scriptures of the messiah coming a second time.

Futurists and those with similar beliefs in dispensationalism interpret the messiah's 2nd coming in almost an identical way that the Jews, who rejected Jesus, interpret the messiah's first coming.

You are making an argument like saying the moon is not round, when it can plainly be seen. Israel is a nation again, May 14, 1948,

No, I'm making the argument that the sun is not the moon, while you are telling me it is.

What makes modern Israel the same as ancient Hebrews under the old covenant.

Do the modern day jews have historical records to prove they descended from Israel. Do modern day Jews have historical records to prove they are lawfully allowed to work in a future constructed temple? Oral tradition is not acceptable as proof, as shown in Ezra 2:

Ezra 2:59-63 The following came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, but could not prove that their families were descended from Israel: the descendants of Delaiah,
the descendants of Tobiah and the descendants of Nekoda,
652 in all. And from among the priests: the descendants of Habaiah,
the descendants of Hakkoz, and the descendants of Barzillai (who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name). These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim.

fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8.

This refers to Jesus, as Jesus was born prior to great tribulation and persecution of the saints, see Revelation 12
Isaiah 66:y Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy.

I would argue This refers to the church, the true Israel, being born from old covenant Israel through persecution, the offspring of the woman (see revelation 12)
Isaiah 66:8 Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.

 

[Marilyn C]

Isaiah 66:y Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy.

I would argue This refers to the church, the true Israel, being born from old covenant Israel through persecution, the offspring of the woman (see revelation 12)
Isaiah 66:8 Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children.

Hi claninja,

So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?

Marilyn.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi claninja,

So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?

Marilyn.

See how simple that is? You answered your own question......

Rom 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
1Co 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Eph 4:12
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

 

[Marilyn C]

See how simple that is? You answered your own question......

Rom 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
1Co 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Eph 4:12
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

Hi LittleLambofJesus,

I said -

`So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?`

So are you telling me that God wasted 4000 years with the nations and Israel?

Marilyn.

 

[mkgal1]

Hi LittleLambofJesus,

I said -

`So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?`

So are you telling me that God wasted 4000 years with the nations and Israel?

Marilyn.

Why do you perceive that as a "waste of time"?

Why is the Body of Christ insignificant - it seems - to you?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi LittleLambofJesus,

I said -

`So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?`

So are you telling me that God wasted 4000 years with the nations and Israel?

Marilyn.

The OT/OC is for the Jews/Hebrew Israelites, as is the book of Revelation, so I read and interpret both as a Jew/Hebrew would.

The Jews were blessed with the Oracles of God, yet they are now the tail, and those in Christ are now the head. Now we also are blessed with those Oracles thru the Word of Jesus.

And like Paul, my desire is also that the unbelieving Jews may be saved, even if it takes another 4000yrs, but for me, everything is fulfilled in my Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ.

I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh” (Romans 9:2,3).
“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1).

Act 7:38
“This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai,
and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
Rom 3:2
Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

Heb 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things,
through whom also He made the worlds;

Rom 9:27
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Deu 28:13
“And the LORD will make you the head and not the tail;
you shall be above only, and not be beneath,
if you heed the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them.

Isa 9:
14 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel,
Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 The elder and honorable, he is the head;
The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why do you perceive that as a "waste of time"?

Why is the Body of Christ insignificant - it seems - to you?

Hi mkgal,

I believe that the Body of Christ is a part of God`s purposes in Christ, and that those people who trusted God before the cross, (during 4000 years) also have an important part in God`s purposes.

Clanija was saying we (the Body of Christ) is the true Israel. Well then what about all those people who trusted God during those 4000 years before the cross. If all God wanted was the Body of Christ He could have planned it much sooner!

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

The OT/OC is for the Jews/Hebrew Israelites, as is the book of Revelation, so I read and interpret both as a Jew/Hebrew would.

The Jews were blessed with the Oracles of God, yet they are now the tail, and those in Christ are now the head. Now we also are blessed with those Oracles thru the Word of Jesus.

And like Paul, my desire is also that the unbelieving Jews may be saved, even if it takes another 4000yrs, but for me, everything is fulfilled in my Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ.

I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh” (Romans 9:2,3).
“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1).

Hi LittleLambofJesus,

During the 4000 years prior to the cross there were many people who trusted God. What of them? Do they have a part in God`s purposes in Christ, or is it all about us?

Marilyn.

 

[mkgal1]

Hi mkgal,

I believe that the Body of Christ is a part of God`s purposes in Christ, and that those people who trusted God before the cross, (during 4000 years) also have an important part in God`s purposes.

Clanija was saying we (the Body of Christ) is the true Israel. Well then what about all those people who trusted God during those 4000 years before the cross. If all God wanted was the Body of Christ He could have planned it much sooner!

Marilyn.

You seem to be excluding the many faithful ancient Israelites from the Body of Christ. There's no exclusion. The people of God aren't identified by anything more than their faith.

Keep in mind that the gospel hadn't been preached to the Gentiles yet, at Jesus' death and resurrection. The early church was made up of faithful Jewish believers.

"Israel" means people of God.

This is how the Greek Orthodox have been describing what happened at His resurrection for over 1800 years:

Quoting from Iconreader:

Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades, or Hell. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.

In the Icon, Jesus Christ stands victoriously in the centre. Robed in Heavenly white, He is surrounded by a mandorla of star-studded light, representing the Glory of God. Christ is shown dramatically pulling Adam, the first man, from the tomb. Eve is to Christ’s left, hands held out in supplication, also waiting for Jesus to act. This humble surrender to Jesus is all Adam and Eve need to do, and all they are able to do. Christ does the rest, which is why He is pulling Adam from the tomb by the wrist, and not the hand.

Surrounding the victorious Christ are John the Baptist and the Old Testament Righteous (Abel is shown as the young shepherd-boy). Those who predeceased Christ’s crucifixion descended to Hades, where they patiently waited the coming of their Messiah. Now they are freed from this underworld, and mingle freely with Christ and His angels. - The Resurrection | Icon of Victory​

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

So are you saying that God wasted His time over 4000 years with nations and Israel only to end up with the Body of Christ?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I am deeply disturbed your comment. God "wasting his time"? "only to end up with the body Christ"?

 

[Marilyn C]

You seem to be excluding the many faithful ancient Israelites from the Body of Christ. There's no exclusion. The people of God aren't identified by anything more than their faith.

Keep in mind that the gospel hadn't been preached to the Gentiles yet, at Jesus' death and resurrection. The early church was made up of faithful Jewish believers.

"Israel" means people of God.

Hi mkgal,

No I`m not excluding those people, I was pointing out that if one believes the Body of Christ is the only group that God has purposes for then what of all the people who turned to God 4000 years prior.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

I am deeply disturbed your comment. God "wasting his time"? "only to end up with the body Christ"?

Hi clninja,

The `wasting His time` refers to the thought that God did not have a purpose for people who turned to Him prior to the Body of Christ, when scripture tells us He does.

Marilyn.

 

[mkgal1]

Hi mkgal,

No I`m not excluding those people, I was pointing out that if one believes the Body of Christ is the only group that God has purposes for then what of all the people who turned to God 4000 years prior.

Marilyn.

Let me try this again.

Israel is in the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ actually is Israel. You seem to be using the phrase, "Body of Christ" to mean Gentile believers....when I use it to mean ALL believers of Christ throughout history.

I believe God has a purpose for ALL people (but can't go into full detail about that here - it's controversial ). I answered in an earlier post - #229 - what happened to all the people that were faithful to God before the resurrection (did you miss that post?).

 

[Marilyn C]

Let me try this again.

Israel is in the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ actually is Israel. I believe God has a purpose for ALL people (but can't go into full detail about that here - it's controversial ). I answered in an earlier post what happened to all the people that were faithful to God before the resurrection (did you miss that post?).

Hi mkgal,

Sorry I might have as I`ve had a few to reply and haven`t finished yet. Also have to go out soon so may have to get back to you if you are still commenting.

Can you show me the scripture/s that show the Body of Christ is Israel?

The people that were faithful to God prior to the resurrection are in the general assembly in the third heaven, the just/righteous men and women. (Heb.12: 23)

Marilyn.

 

[mkgal1]

Can you show me the scripture/s that show the Body of Christ is Israel?

It's more of a meta-narrative story line, but if you need one verse, Galatians 6:16 is what comes to mind:

Quoting linked article: The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church here. [1] The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ("upon the Israel of God") was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's "Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God," and in the New International Version's "even to the Israel of God." It is not necessary, however, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, as Marvin Vicent says, "The ὅσοι ['as many as'] will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community." (Word Studies in the New Testament vol. 4, p. 180). So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, if it is not misunderstood. In any case, it seems clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in the phrase "as many as shall walk by this rule" (the rule of boasting only in the cross). The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not included in this group.

The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology. They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast." Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today(Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45). ~ The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)​

 

[mkgal1]

Sorry I might have as I`ve had a few to reply and haven`t finished yet. Also have to go out soon so may have to get back to you if you are still commenting.

It was just a few posts back - post #229. You responded, but you may have only read my first line that said you seem to be excluding the faithful Jewish believers that made up the early church. Read a bit further in that very post, because there I answered your question about "what happened to all the people who turned to God 4000 years prior?".

 

[claninja]

Hi clninja,

The `wasting His time` refers to the thought that God did not have a purpose for people who turned to Him prior to the Body of Christ, when scripture tells us He does.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

God's sworn oath to Abraham was that all families of the earth would be blessed through him (Abraham).

Genesis 1:1-3 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Leave your country, your kindred, and your father’s household, and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.

To keep His Oath that all nations would be blessed through Abraham, he chose Israel, the nation that descended from Abraham.

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your fathers, He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Because it was through Israel that the Messiah would come that would bless all nations BY turning us from our wicked ways. Thus we can see the main purpose of Israel being chosen was to bring forth the Messiah.

Acts 3:25-26 And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers, when He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up His servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

And Christ fulfills ALL the promises of God. Thus we see the purposes of Israel as revealed in the mystery that is Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.


Paul simply states that the law and everything that happened while Israel was under the old covenant prior to Christ, was to point to Christ and the true spiritual reality.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened (OT stories) to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come

Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Now why God chose to do all of that in this specific way, I have no idea. No more idea than why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, or why God didn't just make everything perfect to start worth, without humanity having to go through suffering. But this was his way even from eternity past.

But Israel and the Church are not separate, that much is clear. True Israel and body of Christ are one in the same. For those who died before receiving the promises of God in the OT were to be made perfect together with the church.

Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Christ is the heir of ALL things.
Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Christ is the recipient of the promises made to Abraham.
Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

Outside of Christ, no one inherits the promises of God.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Thus it is absolutely appalling to believe that "God wasted his time ONLY to bring about the body of Christ".

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

But Israel and the Church are not separate, that much is clear. True Israel and body of Christ are one in the same. For those who died before receiving the promises of God in the OT were to be made perfect together with the church.

Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Hi claninja,

Let`s look at Hebrews 12.
We see the `church of the first-born` AND the spirits of `just (righteous) men (& women) made perfect. Two groups there.

`...to the General Assembly and Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.`(Heb. 1: 23)

1. The Body of Christ who are made like Christ because the Holy Spirit brought Christ`s resurrected life to us. This is only possible AFTER Christ`s resurrection. They will sit with Christ on His own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) This is the `something better` God provides for us. (Heb. 11: 40) `Something better,` refers to a greater dominion, (base word of Gk.) which is in the third heaven, while the OT saints, (just men & women) come down to near the earth.



2. The spirits of just men made perfect, are those who looked by faith for the city. They are made righteous by their faith, but do not have the privilege of being n the Body of Christ. They will be in the city that comes down out of heaven, from God. (Heb. 11: 14 - 16 Rev. 21:10) This city come DOWN FROM God and will be in a lower realm.



Together, the Body of Christ and the just men, (women, OT saints) in their different rulership realms, would be `complete, fulfilled, `(Gk. teleioo), as to God`s purpose of all rulership in every realm, under Christ.

 

[mkgal1]

Let`s look at Hebrews 12.
We see the `church of the first-born` AND the spirits of `just (righteous) men (& women) made perfect. Two groups there.

Keep in mind the general rule of interpretation: who; what; where; when; why.

The main issue is: to whom is this addressing? Answer: First century Jewish Christians.

I haven't read this passage through thoroughly recently (and I've never considered the distinction that you're making), but I believe the two groups you're seeing here are the living (church of the first born) and the dead (spirits of the just in heaven who have now been made perfect ).

I'll get back to you after reading more, though.

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

Let`s look at Hebrews 12.
We see the `church of the first-born` AND the spirits of `just (righteous) men (& women) made perfect. Two groups there.

`...to the General Assembly and Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.`(Heb. 1: 23)

That is a possible interpretation, one I would probably could agree with: Body of Christ and OT saints.

But as Hebrews 11 clearly states they are not made perfect APART from the church.

1. The Body of Christ who are made like Christ because the Holy Spirit brought Christ`s resurrected life to us. This is only possible AFTER Christ`s resurrection. They will sit with Christ on His own throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) This is the `something better` God provides for us. (Heb. 11: 40) `Something better,` refers to a greater dominion, (base word of Gk.) which is in the third heaven,

I absolutely agree with this.

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The spirits of just men made perfect, are those who looked by faith for the city. They are made righteous by their faith, but do not have the privilege of being n the Body of Christ.

I disagree that they are not part of the body of Christ.

Apart from the body of Christ they are not made perfect, as the author of Hebrews clearly states

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

They will be in the city that comes down out of heaven, from God. (Heb. 11: 14 - 16 Rev. 21:10) This city come DOWN FROM God and will be in a lower realm.

The new Jerusalem is the body of Christ. So if you believe that the OT saints will be in the New Jerusalem, then you believe they are part of the Body of Christ.

1.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Ephesians 5:31 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

2.)BOTH the new Jerusalem and the body of Christ are built on the foundation of the apostles

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:19-20 but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

3.) BOTH the new Jerusalem and body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

Ephesians 2:21-22 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16 For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Together, the Body of Christ and the just men, (women, OT saints) in their different rulership realms, would be `complete, fulfilled, `(Gk. teleioo), as to God`s purpose of all rulership in every realm, under Christ.

Christ is the heir of the promises made to Abraham. So not sure how anyone outside of Christ could inherit anything.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Hebrews 1:2 in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world

The author of Hebrews clearly states the OT saints acknowledged that they were strangers ON EARTH and were longing for a HEAVENLY country. Thus, I disagree that the OT saints are separate from the Church, for they longed for the same things as the NT saints: a heavenly dwelling.

Hebrews 11:13-16 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Now those who say such things show that they are seeking a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.