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Featured Eschatology for dummies :)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by worshipjunkie, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Now I will restore Jacob from captivity and will have compassion on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy name

    Using psalm 2:6-7 for the verb tenses is a solid counter argument Douggg.

    So since we disagree on the interpretation of psalm 85:1, we have to make the picture bigger. There are typically types and anti-types. The types (shadows) being the present situation, the anti-types (reality) pointing towards the future fulfillment in Christ.

    So we can also see this with the phrase "restoring the fortunes of Jacob/restoring Jacob from captivity". While this phrase points to the immediate situation of the prophecy, as the people were sent into captivity and then restored by God through the proclamation of Cyrus, it's anti-type is ultimately fulfilled in Christ.

    Let's start with present situation in the context of the prophecy, the Babylonian exile:


    Psalm 85:1 is generally accepted as being written just after the Babylonian exile, when the Jews returned. Thus the type (shadow) was fulfilled upon return from the Babylonian exile.

    Psalm 85:1 You showed favor to Your land, O LORD; You restored Jacob from captivity. You forgave the iniquity of Your people; You covered all their sin.

    Let's expand to other prophecies using the phrase "restoring the fortunes of Jacob/restoring Jacob from captivity". Notice Jeremiah specifically mentions Israel being restored to "this place" and "from captivity" AFTER the Babylonian exile. He is specifically writing to the exiles who were taken from Jerusalem by Babylon. Thus ,the immediate context (type) in regards to "restoring from captivity" is the Babylonian exile.

    Jeremiah 29:10-11 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”


    God restored the fortunes of Jacob because of and through Christ. Notice the ruler arises "from their midst" when Israel had already been drawn back to the land and "the city" rebuilt. Jesus came in the flesh and ascended when Jerusalem had already been rebuilt as a city.

    Jeremiah 30:18 Thus says the Lord: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt on its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be.

    Jeremiah 30:31 Their leader will be one of their own, and their ruler will arise from their midst.
    And I will bring him near, and he will approach Me
    , for who would dare on his own to approach Me?

    Again, Jeremiah mentions restoring the fortunes of Judah and Israel in context with Babylonians taking Israel in exile. This is another type, for after 70 years, God did restore the land to his people.

    Jeremiah 33:4-6 For this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says about the houses of this city and the palaces of the kings of Judah that have been torn down for defense against the siege ramps and the sword: Those who come to fight the Chaldeans will fill these houses with the corpses of their own men, whom I will strike down in My anger and in My wrath. I have hidden My face from this city because of all its wickedness. Nevertheless, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal its people and reveal to them the abundance of peace and truth. I will restore Judah and Israel from captivity and will rebuild them as in former times

    Now, let's move to the anti-type, which is ultimately fulfilled in Christ:

    The ultimate fulfillment (the anti-type) of the promises of God are found in Christ. This is the starting point.
    2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.


    It is ultimately Christ who freed the captives to sin and brought them to him. He restored us from our captivity to sin. He is the son who set us free.

    Luke 4:17-19 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives

    and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

    Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

    John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    For David wrote that God would restore his captive people during a time when Israel was not in exile, pointing towards the salvation that comes only from Christ, the ultimate anti-type

    Psalm 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come from Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

    Just as both coming out of Egypt and coming out of exile are both types of coming out of the bondage of sin through Christ.
    Jeremiah 23:7-8 So behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites out of the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the other countries to which I had banished them.’ They will dwell once more in their own land.”

    ALL of Jacob is the remnant of Israel because not all of Israel is Israel. Notice the Hebrew parallelism

    Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob; I will gather the remnant of Israel;

    Thus all of those intended to receive the promises of God is ALL of Israel, which is the remnant.


    Additionally, in the following verse of Ezekiel 39:29 God pours out his spirit. This happened at Pentecost ~2000 years ago.


    I disagree. I would argue Matthew 24:31 refers to the resurrection at the coming of Christ with his angels

    Again Douggg, this does not say Israel was gathered back into the land in the "latter days". It says Gog would come against the land in the "latter days".

    The spirit was poured out at Pentecost douggg, see acts 2.

    In your opinion maybe it has.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation again, fulfilling

    Isaiah 66: 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    Acts did not take place after - Ezekiel 39:17-18, Armageddon.

    There is nothing wrong with the order of anything in Ezekiel 38-39:29. It is all end times. And Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking having returned to this earth.

    17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

    18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

    19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

    20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
    _________________________________________________________________

    In Ezekiel 38, God has brought the Jews out of the nations and Israel made a nation again in May 14, 1948 in a single day fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8. The Jews are flourishing over there.

    During the great tribulation and the of the arch villain of the end times, not just Israel is hurt, but the entire earth. In Isaiah 14:19-20, it says of the arch villain of the end times.... who will be a Jew, and descended from King David, but spoke of as an abominable branch. Jesus is the righteous branch.

    19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

    When Jesus returns, He will not only restore Israel, but also the world from the damage done during the great tribulation. And Jesus will bring all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel - who were scattered among the nation for having rejected Him.

    Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    Jesus is recounting what happened over the past 2000 years.

    claninja, just re-evaluate and move forward. Everything I am saying should work in your favor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Again Douggg, you have provided NO scripture that specifically states that Israel will be gathered back to the phsyical land "in the latter times".

    You couldn't do it with Ezekiel 38-39 so now you have moved into Isaiah, with your interpretation on Isaiah 66:7-8, which is debatable.

    Can you provide a non debatable scripture that specifically states Israel will be gathered to the physical land in the "latter times"?


    I agree, I also believe there is nothing wrong with order in which God gave Ezekiel the vision. Although it doesn't seem to be in chronological order.

    Ezekiel 38 starts with ALL of Israel already being brought back to the land. Israel must already be back in the land BEFORE Gog can attack it, no?


    Ezekiel 38:8 They had been brought out from the nations, and ALL now dwell securely.

    Thus the end of Ezekiel 39 must be referring back to 38 when God brought them back to their own land BEFORE Gog/magog, and not AFTER.

    Ezekiel 39:28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, when I regather them to their own land, after exiling them among the nations, not leaving any of them behind

    I partially agree, Parts of Acts 2 are prior and parts are after.

    The Holy Spirit was poured out in the last days
    Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

    Jesus died on the cross at the consummation of the ages.
    Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

    So I agree that parts of Ezekiel 38-39 are about the last times/end of the age.

    With the exception of red highlighted line in Ezekiel 39:17-20, I agree That this takes place after the outpouring of the spirit in Acts 2, for we find it in revelation 19:17-21. Interestingly enough though, the red highlighted line above is not found in revelation 19. The only other NT reference to eating flesh and drinking blood is given by Jesus.

    Do you eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, who was God's sacrifice for us on the mountains of Israel?

    Douggg, Ezekiel's immediate context is the Babylonian exile. You believe a future Gog/Magog war will be literally fought with horses, armor, shields and swords?

    Ezekiel 38:4 will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws, and bring you out with all your army—your horses, your horsemen in full armor, a huge company armed with shields and bucklers, all brandishing their swords

    Ezekiel was writing during the Babylonian exile. that means the immediate context of "giving them into the hands of their enemies" would be the Babylonian exile.
     
  4. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    My wife always reads the bible in French and most times the tenses are different.
    However Psalm 2 6-7 looks forward to the Lord Jesus in New Testament times.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is in both of those text, but you will not accept the text. Nor the history of May 14, 1948, nor the present country over there full of Jews.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, it is not saying all of Israel has been brought back. It is saying of those brought back, the nation is dwelling in security (safety in the KJV), at the time when Gog/Magog attacks..

    Ezekiel 38 and the first half of Ezekiel 39 is about Gog/Magog. Up to Ezekiel 39:16.

    Ezekiel 39:17-29 is 7 years after Gog/Magog.

    It is in chronological order. Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon and Jesus's return, and all the house of Israel brought back to the land of Israel, with none left in the nations.

    Right now Israel is full of Jews, but there are Jews still in the nations of the world.
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect, neither Ezekiel 38 nor 39 specifically mention Israel gathering in the "latter times". If it did, you would have specifically pointed it out already

    All Ezekiel 38-39 mention is that Gog would attack the land in "the latter times" AFTER Israel had already been gathered to it. Grammatically, Gog attacking the land in the "latter times" is not the same as Israel being gathered to the land "in the latter times".

    Do the Jews in present Jerusalem who are preparing the temple have the historical records to prove they are lawfully allowed to work in the temple?

    Ezra 2:59-62 The following came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, but could not prove that their families were descended from Israel: the descendants of Delaiah, the descendants of Tobiah and the descendants of Nekoda, 652 in all. And from among the priests: the descendants of Habaiah, the descendants of Hakkoz, and the descendants of Barzillai (who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name). These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this straight, you believe the gathering in Ezekiel 38 is a partial gathering, then after Gog/Magog, there is a full gathering, correct?



    If that's the case, then I disagree, Ezekiel 39:26-27 clearly refer back to Ezekiel 38:8, 16

    Ezekiel 38:8,16 the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

    Ezekiel 39:26-27 They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid, when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies’ lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations.


    Correct. They were gathered to the mountains of Israel PRIOR to Gog/magog attacking them.

    Ezekiel 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years you (Gog) will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, ALL of them.

    Up to verse 16 includes the 7 years, for the 7 years are found in verse 9.

    Ezekiel 39:9 Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and make fires of the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bow and arrows, clubsc and spears; and they will make fires of them for seven years.

    Ezekiel 39:17-20 clearly refers back to Ezekiel 39:4.

    Ezekiel 39:4 You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    Ezekiel 38:17-20 As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord God: Speak to the birds of every sort and to all beasts of the field: ‘Assemble and come, gather from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel, and you shall eat flesh and drink blood. You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth—of rams, of lambs, and of he-goats, of bulls, all of them fat beasts of Bashan. And you shall eat fat till you are filled, and drink blood till you are drunk, at the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you. And you shall be filled at my table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all kinds of warriors,’ declares the Lord God.
     
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    I don''t read anything about 7 years in those passages that you mention.

    Where do you get seven years from?
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    God has gathered Jews of off the nations following WWII and the nation of Israel was reborne in May 14, 1948. But it was not the gathering of all the Jews. That part you were accurate over what I am saying.

    But it is not until after Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20, and Jesus returns in Ezekiel 39:21-29, that the gathering of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel is complete with none left in the nations after Jesus returns.

    I wrote it down the sequence of events soon to come. Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon and Jesus's return.
    Again, you are misunderstanding what "all" of them means. It means all of the persons dwelling in the land of Israel at the time Gog/Magog attacks.

    It does not mean all of the house of Israel, as you are misunderstanding it.
    No, it doesn't. The destruction and following cleanup of Gog's army is in Ezekiel 39:1-16.

    7 years later, Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon feast. Corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18, that feast.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    David, go to Revelation 19:17-18. It is the Armageddon feast. Prior to that feast, Revelation 6-19 is about the events taking place during the 7 years leading up to it.

    The feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the same Armageddon feast. Following the destruction Gog's army there is the burning of the weapons for 7 years. That 7 years is the 7 years of Revelation 6-19. And the confirming of the covenant time of Daniel 9:27 of 7 years.

    Ezekiel 38 is end times. Jesus's return and speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 is end times.

    Gog/Magog precedes the 7 years, then the 7 years takes place (the Revelation 6-19 events), then Armageddon and Jesus's return.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Oh really?.........

    Christian Zionism - Wikipedia


    Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism.[1][2]

    Traditional Catholic thought did not consider Zionism in any form.[3] However Christian advocacy grew after the Protestant Reformation in support of the restoration of the Jews. A contemporary Israeli historian suggests that evangelical Christian Zionists of the 1840s "passed this notion on to Jewish circles",[4] while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was widely regarded with hostility by British Jews.[5]

    Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus. The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling Biblical prophecy.

    ===========================

    ..........................

    [​IMG]
    Trisha Dishing
    11 months ago
    I was one of the Hagee deceived UNTIL Yeshua woke me up to the lies! Im somewhat ashamed as a minister myself and a Pastors wife, that I took Hagee' s word for it INSTEAD of truly and thoroughly seeking the CLEAR scriptures out for myself that the modern state of Israel IS the synagogue of Satan! TY too for this great teaching and I thank God that now mine eyes are opened and me and my husband are teaching our beautiful church the TRUTH about who Israel is. God bless#

    [​IMG]
    ISREAL CONNECTION
    4 years ago
    Do all you can to expose Zionism, that Israel in the middle east is not the true Israel. You are to be grafted in to the true Israel thru Christ Jesus. Not thru a people that are anti Christ. Nice Job. I haven't seen enough that understand it as well as you. Good Job faithful servant. Bless you in the name of our lord Jesus Christ.

    [​IMG]
    David Jones
    3 years ago
    Good clear exposition showing Dispensationalism for the heresy that it is, and the suffering it has caused the people of Palestine, as well as the damage to the Christian Faith, when people associate it with apartheid, oppression and the many crimes against humanity perpetrated since 1948 by Zionists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Christian Zionism? That's like dispensationalism, containing all kind of separate issues from what I am pointing out regarding Isaiah 66:7-8.

    But thanks for the video. The speaker has major problems with bible prophecy, in order to defend some of his theology.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This ignores the immediate context: the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel was written prior to and during the Babylonian exile.

    this also ignores that Jeremiah specifically states the Lord will restore Jacob from captivity after the 70 years of Babylonian exile.


    Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Now I will restore Jacob from captivity

    Jeremiah 29:10-14 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”

    Hebrew Parallelism Douggg. Collecting the remnant of Israel IS gathering ALL of Jacob.

    Micah 2:12 will surely gather ALL OF YOU, O Jacob; I will collect the REMNANT of Israel.


    It is you Douggg, who doesn't understand that not all of Israel is Israel.

    Hebrew Parallelism Douggg. Collecting the remnant of Israel IS gathering ALL of Jacob.

    Micah 2:12 will surely gather all of you, O Jacob; I will collect the remnant of Israel.

    You are allowed to have your opinions, albeit not supported by scripture. we will just have to agree to disagree.

    I agree parts of Ezekiel 39:17-20 line up with Revelation 19:17-18. However, in revelation Gog/Magog comes after this event.

    Revelation 20:7-8 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The term is an oxymoron...

    Based on 1 John 2:22-23, how can God owe anything to those who reject His Son?

    The rightful "heir" to the land is the "son", who is the "chief cornerstone" found in Matthew chapter 21.


    .
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Since then, Israel went in dispersion again into the nations for rejecting Jesus.

    Ezekiel 38 takes place when the Jews are back in the land. This has happened. The complete gathering of all the house of Israel will not be until Jesus returns , in Ezekiel 39
    the reference to Gog/Magog in Revelation 20, is not the event of Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38/39.

    .
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


    Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
    Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


    2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
    2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

    .
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    There are no scriptures of a 2nd re gathering to land of Israel

    Do the modern day jews have historical records to prove they descended from Israel. Do modern day Jews have historical records to prove they are lawfully allowed to work in a future constructed temple? Oral tradition is not acceptable as proof, as shown in Ezra 2:

    Ezra 2:59-63 The following came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, but could not prove that their families were descended from Israel: the descendants of Delaiah,
    the descendants of Tobiah and the descendants of Nekoda,
    652 in all. And from among the priests: the descendants of Habaiah,
    the descendants of Hakkoz, and the descendants of Barzillai (who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name). These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim.

    I agree, but we disagree on the timing. As the context is about the Babylonian exile, that's what I believe the gathering in regards to.

    You, on the other hand, ignore the immediate context of the Babylonian exile to make your theology work.

    You even seem to sidestep Jeremiah 29, which records "being restored from captivity" in regards to the 70 year Babylonian exile.

    Really?

    Mark 1:14 has Jesus' name in it. But if we apply the same logic that you are using about revelation 20, then it's not really about Jesus.

    mark 1:14 After the arrest of John, Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God. “The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”


    So you are going to have to explain why Gog/Magog marching across the expanse of the earth to attack the saints and city in revelation is not the same as Gog/Magog marching across the land like cloud cover to attack Israel.

    Revelation 20:8-9 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heavena and consumed them.


    Ezekiel 38-2-9
    Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.a Prophesy against him and declare that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.b I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws, and bring you out with all your army—your horses, your horsemen in full armor, a huge company armed with shields and bucklers, all brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush,c and Put will accompany them, all with shields and helmets; Gomer with all its troops; and Beth-togarmah from the far north with all its troops—many nations with you. Get ready; prepare yourself, you and all your company gathered around you; you will be their guard. After a long time you will be summoned. In the last years you will enter a land brought back from war and regathered from many peoples to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and all now dwell securely. 9You and all your troops, and many peoples with you will go up, advancing like a thunderstorm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.’
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Do you know what the Jews say in their arguments to say Jesus in not the messiah? They say that there are no scriptures of the messiah coming a second time.

    Not all of the Jews, the house of Israel - has ever been regathered. The regathering of all the house of Israel is not until Jesus returns, and is in Ezekiel 39:28.

    You are making an argument like saying the moon is not round, when it can plainly be seen. Israel is a nation again, May 14, 1948, fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8. Christian tour groups go over there all the time.

    The U.S. government recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What theology are you referring to? That gentiles have become Jews by virtue of becoming Christians? That's not my theology.

    That the church has become Israel ? That's not my theology.

    It has been proven so many times at this board that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not the same as Revelation 20, I don't want to spend the time and energy to go through it again.

    I have proven Ezekiel 39:21-29 invalidates all of the erroneous theological positions that the church has become Israel and that that gentiles become Jews by virtue of becoming Christians. And the notion that the 7 year 70th week is not forthcoming. I am done for a while. I cannot change denial of reality.
     
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