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So do you think that Jesus Christ makes men sin as well, and that He is in charge if that. That when the robber steals it is God's secret hand that makes him do it?God controls the location of every electron in the Cosmos as well.
And God does seek to make them so, by shining His light or seed in all men to convict, reprove, expose, instruct, save etc.No man is willing until God's grace makes him so.
you don't realize perhaps how serious an issue the translation issue is and the manuscript issue. Anyway there are others on here who can delve deeply into this if you ever were interested.No point discussing further.
All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), from which wrath they are saved by Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9).
Mankind is born with a hardened heart and as God's enemy (Romans 5:10), condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18).
What do you mean by this? Do you say that God tempted Adam? Do you say that God made Adam to sin? If not, then Adam had a free will to make choices and chose to sin as Eve did also. God does not make any sin.He didn't make Adam sin, he tested Adam, and Adam failed the test.
read my lower postDoes it defeat Scripture?
What in "Calvinism" does it defeat?
I'm aware of the importance of translation and manuscript issues. That's why I reject arbitrarily restricting ourselves to the KJV.you don't realize perhaps how serious an issue the translation issue is and the manuscript issue. Anyway there are others on here who can delve deeply into this if you ever were interested.
It is sad that you try to use the KJV version issue a reason not to engage in discussion.
anyway God bless
Remember tomorrow? God does because he was already there.So do you think that Jesus Christ makes men sin as well, and that He is in charge if that. That when the robber steals it is God's secret hand that makes him do it?
God forbid such thinking
as scripture shows
"...is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."(Galatians 2:17)
And God does seek to make them so, by shining His light or seed in all men to convict, reprove, expose, instruct, save etc.
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(John 1(KJV)
And the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light, (John 3:19)
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."(John 3:19 KJV) not before.
Actually, all are born with their sin nature. No one has to teach a child how to lie.They are not created to be damned. But they are condemned when they hate the light. This will happen when their sin nature revives and they die spiritually. Before that they were alive by the grace of God.
Paul was alive once, before he came under the law's curse of death (Galatians 3:10) by transgression of it. He is referring to his sentence of physical death here, which was the curse of the law, not spiritual death.
Paul is not referring to spiritual life. See response above.Notice here we must ask, when was Paul without the law? The answer is when he was a infant and child. Also he was "alive" once without the law. This must be spiritual life because he said then he died. He did not die physically, but spiritually This would go in line with John 3:19 about when men are condemned when they hate the light.
Romans 5:12-14 refers to the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, sin was not accounted to anyone (Romans 5:14), but they all died anyway because they were born with the sin of Adam (Romans 5:15).So when a child comes onto the world they have a sin nature from Adam,
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12 KJV)
Not according to the NT. Where do you find this taught in the NT?but that sin nature is not "revived" or active until they knowingly sin
This notion is not found in the NT. You are mixing the apples and oranges of revelation.and until they hate the light (Romans 7:9, John 3:19). This will come when they have sin revived by the law or the work of the law inwardly through the light. Until this, sin is not imputed and where no law is there is no transgression.
Actually, it shows nothing of the kind, only that you have mixed apples and oranges in your understanding of the law, sin and our guilt of Adam's sin (transgression)."...but sin is not imputed when there is no law.:(Romans 5:13 KJV)
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."(Romans 4:15 KJV)
This shows, that all children come into the world and are saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. For they are ignorant and cannot do good or evil yet.
Where is this taught in the NT?They are as Paul, "alive, until sin revives and when this happens their sin nature will fail
They will hate the light because those evil deeds reveal a fallen unregenerate nature (Ephesians 2:3).and they will hate the light because their deeds are evil.
All are born condemned, including infants (Romans 5:18).This is when they are condemned and need to repent and believe the gospel. Unless any want to say that Jesus Christ did not die for the one day old infants who he blessed.
The free gift purchased by Christ came upon them all unto justification of life.
Consider carefully these verses
"15 "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Carefully consider v.18 above:
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"(Tituts 2:11)
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world....And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."(John 1:9, 16 KJV)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ( Romans 1:18, 19 KJV)
Cart before the horse again. . .This free gift is the True Light that lighteth every man, Christ inwardly, the word, the seed, the truth that they have inwardly. When they hate the light and have sin revived and die.
Yes, as little children are trusting, dependent and sincere.They then need to be born again. The seed is still close to them but, This seed is not in union with them until they become born again But when they reach the so called "age of accountability" as some call it. This is when they sin revives and they die spiritually. All children, (infants) Jesus blessed and said of such that of such are the kingdom of God.
So if all infants at one day old are saved by the grace of God until they hate the light when their deeds are evil.
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4L10 KJV) This is not universalism, but it may be showing how all infants once had that life in the grace of God and salvation in Christ.
Where does the NT specifically teach that all are the elect at one time or that infants are saved?This disproves Calvinism, because all are the elect at one time and yet all will not be saved in the end. Many will fall away and have their foolish hearts darkened and even though they once knew .
Calvinist doctrine of election is defeated by infant salvation.
Where do we find anyone is born saved in the NT?The doctrine of perseverance is defeated also for they once were saved and alive then when sin revives they die and when they hate the light they are condemned.
If they are born saved, why do infants need the death of Christ?The only way they can be saved after that is to repent and believe the gospel and continue in the grace of God through faith. Also the doctrine of limited atonement is defeated because Christ died for all infants and so for all men and the atonement was not limited.
This parable does not teach that the word of God is sown in every heart.and consider the seed, or word of God sown in every heart
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."(Luke 8:11-15 KJV)
- Total Depravity
Actually, all are born with their sin nature. No one has to teach a child how to lie.
He was alive once, before he came under the law's curse of death (Galatians 3:10) by transgression of it. He is referring to his sentence of physical death here, which was the curse of the law, not spiritual death.
We are born in spiritual death; i.e., with no eternal life.
I am not saying as you imply I am that when Paul says he was alive once without the law, that that life he speaks of is his natural human spirit life. I believe Paul as an infant (like I believe ALL infants have) had spiritual life in Christ through the grace of God and Jesus sacrifice for sin for the whole world. He died, not physically when the commandment came, but he died in that spiritual life connected to Christ. Eternal life is Christ. When we are in Christ we have eternal life. But as John said in 1 John if we hate our brother eternal life does not abide ( remain) in us any more. So yes a person can lose that eternal life in sin. When sin revives and they die, i see that death as them now being dead in trespasses and sins. And they need to repent and be born again to have Christ formed in them .Our human spirits have their natural human-spirit life, but no eternal life is regarded as spiritual death, not as its natural death.
There is no natural human-spirit death, for our human spirits are immortal, as are the angelic spirits.
Paul is not referring to spiritual life.
They hate the light because they are born in the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18) with a fallen nature (Ephesians 2:3), which needs only an opportunity to show itself.
Romans 5:12-14
refers to the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, sin was not accounted to anyone (Romans 5:14), but they all died anyway because they were born with the sin of Adam (Romans 5:15).
Not according to the NT. Where do you find this taught in the NT?
"Where there is no law, there is no transgression" refers to the time between Adam and Moses, when no sin was accounted because there was no law (Romans 5:13).
"After the law was given, there was transgression" refers to the time between Moses and Christ, when sin was accounted, and all who relied on observing the law were under a curse (Galatians 3:10), because no one could keep it as required.
Infants also need Christ death for them, and only because of God's grace and the salvation offered in Christ can any infant have this life. It is God's mercy and grace and love that saves the infants. Jesus said they were blessed and of such are the kingdom.If they are born saved, why do infants need the death of Christ?
No you are wrong here, the parable is a deep mystery and it does show that the Sower The Father sows Christ the seed , word of God in every heart. Though not in union with the hearts unless the seed takes root.This parable does not teach that the word of God is sown in every heart.
Only some of the seed fell on the path, rock and thorns. Most of the seed went into the ground. Paths, rocks and thorns are not "hearts."
Sorry mate, but "God cannot" is pure unadulterated "human reasoning"; nothing, nothing, no thing, restricts God in any way except His own will. Punto, full stop, end of.No I refer to scripture not human reasoning as we see there are things God CANNOT do
Any more then He can create an 8 sided triangle. It's your human reasoning betraying you again. You are deluding yourself if you believe that here's some set of rules that God is forbidden to break. His will alone determines what He will or will not do.I stress the words cannot lie.
Neither can He shoot and miss. Let's not be ridiculous, shall we?he cannot deny himself.”
what::: have you ever read the bible and seen these clear things in scriptureSorry mate, but "God cannot" is pure unadulterated "human reasoning"; nothing, nothing, no thing, restricts God in any way except His own will. Punto, full stop, end of.
What???Let's not be ridiculous, shall we?
Probably more times than you have; I've had longer to do it.1 have you ever read the bible
Oh yes, I've seen more made-up "clear teachings of Scripture" that was pure bosh than I'd care to contemplate, usually by people who'll yank a phrase out of Scripture,like this one, "God cannot lie" and then build a ridiculous theology around it.seen these clear things in scripture
Any more than He can grinswallop. If He declares it, it isn't a lie. Next sophistry...
Not that this would bolster your argument if you'd read it right, which you did not, but "will not" is far different than "can not". Amd God, according to Scripture, has in fact repented, i.e., changed His mind. Genesis 6:6, OK? I'll lerave it to you to figure out what the verse in Samuel was about.
Which has what to do with anything? Satan's sins are his own problem, as are yours and mine.Satan is the father of lies, not God. The lie comes from Satan himself, he speaks of himself not by God making him lie.
Again, simple nonsense on a par with the 8 sided triangle. God can't not be God, because it's ridiculous.2. God cannot be tempted with evil nor does he tempt any man and God cannot sin
And God can't beat Himself boxing.2. God cannot deny Himself
"Thou art
So if we do bad things, God can't see us. Right.of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity
So you can't understand my simple declarative sentences, but you're master of Biblical interpretation? Yeah... no.What???
I quoted the verse about God cannot deny himself and you say "lets not be ridiculous??????
I don't understand your words they are meaningless in the context of what I shared
The only caveat to this is that His nature is unchanging, so His will never varies. Which means that we can speak of things as being impossible since there is no conceivable way for them to happen. It is impossible for God to do X is a true statement, but what makes it impossible is that that thing is outside of the nature of God.Sorry mate, but "God cannot" is pure unadulterated "human reasoning"; nothing, nothing, no thing, restricts God in any way except His own will. Punto, full stop, end of.
Any more then He can create an 8 sided triangle. It's your human reasoning betraying you again. You are deluding yourself if you believe that here's some set of rules that God is forbidden to break. His will alone determines what He will or will not do.
Neither can He shoot and miss. Let's not be ridiculous, shall we?
Something deep and hard to understand is not the NT meaning of mystery.I am speaking of a great mystery in the bible. Some things are very deeply spiritual in their understanding. This mystery of the Light of Christ, the Seed, the word of God is one of those mysteries.
And yet they lie at a young age, before the commandment comes to their full understanding.This is connected to pose to include oh Jews and GEntiles in the NT church, the change that will take place at the resurrection the mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory.
I don't believe I said anyone has to teach a child to lie. And I did say that a child is born with a sin nature. But that child hasn't actually sinned until they transgress a known law. Their sin nature is as i understand it, dormant or not revived until the commandment comes to their understanding.
Previously addressed. . .non-responsive.This some call the age of accountability. Paul says he was alive once without the law. This "alive I believe is speaking of spiritual life in Christ as he had as a child.
Paul is speaking of when the true rigor of the law became clear to him, he realized he was condemned to physical death by it.I am not alone in seeing that Paul is referring to the time when he was a child without the law. Other commentators I have found agree n this.
When Paul says sin "revived" then he died. he is speaking of understanding the law and his sin nature ( that was there but not active so to speak) was revived. The death is spiritual death . separation from God .
Adam died physically to show that he had already died spiritually.Adam was alive before he sinned, and God said the "DAY" you eat you shall surely "DIE". Now we know that when Adam ate the fruit he didn't die physically right then. He died spiritually and this was in his connection to God.
Separated from God is spiritual death. Even if fallen angels and men who die in sin go to hell and are conscious. This is not to live in the life (Christ) but in death. Jesus said let the dead bury their dead when speaking of spiritually dead men. Dead in trespasses and sins. They are dead to God dead in spiritual life. When a person is born again they are now spiritually alive to God in Christ. Jesus said he is the life.
Because you don't understand it in context of and in harmony with the whole NT.No I don't agree.
Previously addressed. . .non-responsive.He says he was alive without the law once. This life is spiritual life in Christ. If a infant dies lets say at one hour of life. I believe Christ still died for them. And Jesus blessed the infants. This infant is in Christ by God's grace I believe. For Christ died for the sin of the whole world and for all men. The only way a child could go to God is if they have eternal life, to be "alive: spiritually in Christ. This is what I believe all infants have through the work of the cross and by Gods grace for them. We know that all infants have the true Light that lights them (John 1:9) this light will eventually reprove all sin. But until the child actually knowingly transgresses the law they are not dead yet as Paul seems to imply and as we see in other places.
This is what I mean by not understanding in the context of the whole NT.Paul is not referring to only the physical death of the law, for not all sin has a death penalty under the law.
I already have. . .Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3. By nature (birth) we are objects of wrath. We are born with our nature.He said he was alive once without the law and then dead when sin revived. The expression sin revived and he died is telling.
Show me from scripture that a infant is not alive in Christ.
We see in Romans 5:18-19 that condemnation came upon all men in Adam, just as (in the same way) justification of life came upon all men in Christ.We read in Romans 5 that the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Previously addressed. . .non-responsive.The true Light lights every infant that is alive. Yes they are born with a sin nature. But sin is not imputed to them while there is "NO LAW" . They are know anything and they do not know how to do right or wrong. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it s sin. God only judges according to the light they have. Where no law is there is no transgression. The infant has not done good or evil yet. They are in grace as i understand. That grace is the grace of salvation purchased by Christ for them.
The alternative to this understanding is to condemn all infants at one day old to hell if they die. But this is not what I see in scripture. Jesus blessed the infants and said of such is the kingdom. Can any imagine God saying to a one day old infant that died. "away from me ye that work iniquity"?. But the infant has not worked any iniquity yet.
Previously addressed. . .non responsive.I am not saying as you imply I am that when Paul says he was alive once without the law, that that life he speaks of is his natural human spirit life. I believe Paul as an infant (like I believe ALL infants have) had spiritual life in Christ through the grace of God and Jesus sacrifice for sin for the whole world. He died, not physically when the commandment came, but he died in that spiritual life connected to Christ. Eternal life is Christ. When we are in Christ we have eternal life. But as John said in 1 John if we hate our brother eternal life does not abide ( remain) in us any more. So yes a person can lose that eternal life in sin. When sin revives and they die, i see that death as them now being dead in trespasses and sins. And they need to repent and be born again to have Christ formed in them .
Right, that's why Jesus always speaks of our judgment based on our actions.Jesus said they are condemned WHEN they hate the light
The opposite of being condemned is to be saved in Christ in the Light in the life and eternal life of Christ. The opportunity to "show
" itself, is when sin revives. This sin reviving I see as the sin nature now acting and alive. He then became alive unto sin but dead unto God when that happened, as all will do when the understanding of the law comes to them and their sin nature rebels.
This is not what is being said. We know that men sinned from Adam to Moses and God judged the entire world for sin in Genesis. We see many sinning all through the event from Adam to Moses. But we know that even if they did not have the Mosaic law God was reproving them of sin inwardly by the true Light that lighteh every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). This light will reprove al things (Eph 5) . Jesus said that whosoever ( that would include all men from Adam to Moses) doeth evil hateth the light and that the light reproves them of sin.
Paul also said of such men who didnt have the law of Moses written in stone,
And again, you don't understand correctly because you are not seeing it in its context."14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."(Romans 2:14-16 KJV)
These secrets of men is the inward reality of men. This is where the Seed , or word of God, Christ the true Light shines and works.
"This is all through the old and new Testaments. This is a mystery hid from ages and generation now made known.
Paul is not referring to the curse of the law specifically or the death sentence. he says he was alive without the law and dead when sin revived by the commandment .
We see more of this mystery when Paul speaks of it in Romans 10 He refers to Dueteronomy 30 in the chapter. This also shows the mystery that all men know and the work of the law inwardly and that Christ has always been there as the true Light lighting every man and reproving all men from the beginning
Consider deeply this in context.consider deeply this
"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."(Duet 30:11-14 KJV)
Even before the law of Moses was given God has worked it in all mens hearts. This is how God can judge all men and the secrets of men.
Previously addressed. . .non-responsive.Infants also need Christ death for them, and only because of God's grace and the salvation offered in Christ can any infant have this life. It is God's mercy and grace and love that saves the infants. Jesus said they were blessed and of such are the kingdom.
No you are wrong here, the parable is a deep mystery and it does show that the Sower The Father sows Christ the seed , word of God in every heart. Though not in union with the hearts unless the seed takes root.
Consider the parable carefully and you will see that the seed is sown in every heart. But how the heart reacts to the seed is the issue. Some hearts are hard to the seed and others filled with other things.
If you can see and understand this parable you will understand what I am talking about in the great Mystery. I don't say this to be better than anyone or puffed up. But rather to attempt to speak of the deep things of God and the mystery of Christ in you.
"13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred."(Mark 4:13-20 KJV)
No matter how deep they are, they are still defined by the Biblical text, which boundaries you transgress.
And yet they lie at a young age, before the commandment comes to their full understanding.
Where in the NT is it taught that humans are born with the spiritual life of Christ, which is the spiritual rebirth? If they are born with Christ's life, why must they be born again
Christ's life is eternal life, and eternal life is just that--eternal, everlasting. It's not given at birth, then lost, then given again. That is nonsense to the NT.
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