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Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by TG123, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    Salaam Alaikum.

    The Quran describes a prophet called Salih, who lived in the Thamud tribe. The Thamud did not worship God, and were disobedient. God sent Salih to warn them, then after they ignored him and murdered a she-camel that God sent, He killed them and left only Salih and those who followed him alive.

    The story can be found in the following verses.

    11:61-68 and 7:73-79 and 15:80-84.

    The Quran teaches that Salih lived after Hud, and before Shuaib and Moses and other prophets.

    The Quran makes sure to include that the Thamud would carve out homes in the mountains.

    7:73, 74

    To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.

    "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth."


    15:80-84


    And verily, the dwellers of Al-Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers.
    And We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them.

    And they used to hew out dwellings from the mountains (feeling themselves) secure.
    But As-Saihah (torment - awful cry etc.) overtook them in the early morning (of the fourth day of their promised punishment days).
    And all that which they used to earn availed them not.


    When Muhammad and his men were passing through the valley where the Thamud used to live, he ordered them to not enter the houses "but weepingly", and they quickly rode through the valley.

    (5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly. (Book #042, Hadith #7104)

    http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

    Muhammad forbade his men to drink the water from the wells of the people there, and only allowed them to drink from where the she-camel used to drink.


    (6) Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded that the water collected for drinking should be spilt and the flour should be given to the camels and commanded them that the water for drinking should be taken from that well where the she-camel (of Hadrat Salih) used to come. (Book #042, Hadith #7105)

    http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all

    The place is now a UNESCO site, and the pictures of the buildings testify to the accuracy of the Quran's description about the buildings being hewn out from rock.

    [​IMG]

    Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre

    However, the buildings are not homes, they were actually tombs. And what is worse, they were not built by the Thamud but by the Nabateans. They were built not before the time of Moses, but during the first century BC and the 1st century AD. During this time, the Nabateans built structures out of rock throughout their Kingdom.

    Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. But the inscriptions in Lihyanite script and some recently discovered archaeological vestiges are evidence for human settlement as early as the 3rd or 2nd century BCE.
    One-third of the tombs, which are amongst the largest, are clearly dated to between 0-75 CE.

    The Hedjaz region was integrated into the Roman province of Arabia in 106 CE. A monumental Roman epigraph of 175-177 CE was recently discovered at Al- Hijr. The region then formed part of Roman history, and then Byzantine history, until the 7th century. In 356, the city of Hegra is again mentioned, as being led by a mayor of local origin, but it seems to have been very modest in size at that time.

    Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre


    2) The Nabataean city of Hegra or Al-Hijr was formed
    around a central residential zone and its oasis
    . The
    sandstone outcrops at various degrees of proximity
    offered outstanding possibilities for rock-cut necropoles
    or spaces, forming a remarkable site for the expression of
    Nabataean monumental architecture.

    http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/1293.pdf

    According to the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries, Al Hijr was settled by the Thamud and other people groups before the Nabateans, but the Nabateans were the only ones who built a city... they carved tombs out of rocks. There have been remains of prehistoric people discovered in some of the mountains as well as petroglyphs. The Lihyanites, Thamud and Minaites left inscriptions... however it was the Nabateans who carved buildings out of rock. They settled in the area around the 1st century BC and built a city.


    [​IMG]

    Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Mada’in Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric.

    According to several passages in the Qur’an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC.

    The Nabataeans probably settled in Mada’in Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD.

    They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells.

    During the Islamic period, al-Hijr was an important stop on the Syrian pilgrimage road. A citadel and a large reservoir were built for the pilgrims’ convenience. Finally, at the beginning of the 20th century, a railway station was constructed at Mada’in Salih on the so-called Hejaz railway, which linked Turkey to the city of Madina, also crossing Syria.


    First International Conference For Urban Heritage In The Islamic Countries


    The buildings that Muhammad and his men came across were not built by the Thamud before the time of Moses, but by the Nabateans who built it between the 1st century BC and 1st century AD. *

    The Quran's claim that the buildings carved out of rock were made by the Thamud during the time of Salih is false.

    *They were also tombs, not houses as Muhammad and the author of the Quran evidently believed


     
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  2. I love Justice

    I love Justice Member

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  3. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    Assalamu Alaikum. That is very much correct. We discussed the topic at length, and in the end we decided to disagree. You stated that you believe the UNESCO archaeologists could be wrong in their dating of the tombs, though they could be "in the right ballpark". You stated that even if they were 100% correct, this would have no bearing on your belief that the Quran is true. I responded that for the UNESCO archaeologists to be wrong, they would have to be off by more than 1,000 years, since Salih lived before Moses.

    I also pointed out that the First International Conference of Urban Heritage in Islamic Countries, organized by the Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities, also states that the buildings were constructed by the Nabateans, who settled in the area around 1 BC and were the only ones who left behind them the remains of the city. The Thamud and Lihyanites and others who were there before them left some inscriptions, but not buildings.

    You didn't respond after this, which is ok. There are now also other Muslims on this forum, including Gift2Christian. I threw this challenge out to them also and decided to start a new thread rather than force them to read our old one.
     
  4. LoveBeingAMuslimah

    LoveBeingAMuslimah Newbie

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    Wa Alaikum

    They have no concrete proof that others weren't the ones who carved those tombs into the rocks. They are suggesting that since SOME of the artifacts date to ~ a certain period and the inscriptions are from certain time periods (though it could have been from even earlier), then the tombs must also have been carved during that time. Even if we are to assume that they are absolutely correct in their dating of the artifacts/inscriptions, it does not immediately follow that the houses/tombs were carved into the rocks by the people to whom the artifacts/inscriptions belonged.

    As I pointed out before in one of the posts I linked to, they said (in the UNESCO link you provided):

    1) Epigraphic traces of the pre-Nabataean period remain, and consist of some fifty inscriptions in Lihyanite script, which is specific to northern Arabia, and some cave drawings including two lions in an expressive style.


    So they themselves say that only epigraphic traces remain of the pre-Nabataean time period. If only traces remain from that time, why is it necessary that any epigraphic traces remain from the time of the people of Thamud mentioned in the Qur'aan? Or artifacts? I mean, it makes sense to me that almost everything is gone from that point besides the buildings.



    And as I mentioned elsewhere on that thread (I think), this is like the issue of Adam (peace be upon him) for us. Though scientists use all of the evidence they have to say that humans are related to chimpanzees through a common ancestor, we believe that they're misinterpreting the data. Yeah, maybe our DNA is really close to the DNA of chimps, but that does not automatically mean that we must be related. There could be other explanations besides that. And because we're Muslims, we know that Adam was created by Allaah without a mother or a father. That's our explanation. Similarly, they are taking a bunch of data and concluding that certain people are the ones who carved the tombs into the rocks. We disagree with this hypothesis.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  5. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    You too.

    The article claims that the artifacts, like inscriptions and writings found on the rocks, date to the 3rd century BC and possibly a bit earlier. Dating has shown this to be so. However, the tombs were dated to have been built by the Nabateans. The Nabateans built these tombs not only at Al Hijr, but also at Petra and in other parts of their Kingdom. Dating shows these tombs were all built at approximately the same time.

    Notice that the Quran refers to the Thamud as the people of the rocky tract, or Al Hijr. It does not describe them hewing their buildings out of rocks in Petra. If we were to assume that the Nabatean buildings were made by the Thamud, why refer to them as people of Al Hijr even though they built the same structures in Jordan? Why not refer to them as the inhabitants of Al Hijr and Petra?


    I am not arguing there need to be epigraphic traces of the Thamud. I am arguing that they were not the builders of the tombs.

    Interestingly, notice that even the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in Islamic Countries, organized by the Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities, admits that the Nabateans were the only inhabitants of Al Hijr who left traces behind them of a city. They not only built the tombs, but also the wells that are also mentioned in the Quran. There definitely were traces of the Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic people who lived there, and they consisted of inscriptions... not buildings.

    According to several passages in the Qur’an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC.

    The Nabataeans probably settled in Mada’in Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD.

    They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city.
    The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells.


    First International Conference For Urban Heritage In The Islamic Countries

    Even if humans and chimps shared the exact same DNA, it wouldn't prove we are related to them or that we somehow evolved with them from a common ancestor. If someone were to be able to prove that humans and people share the exact same DNA, I would have no choice but to accept this. I would like to deny that we have some very similar traits, but to do so would be to deny the truth.

    However, I can believe people and monkeys have similar DNA and traits and if it was proved identical I would accept the findings. It still wouldn't take away from the truth that God created people, not monkeys, in His likeness and image and that Adam and Eve were not apes.

    If I may ask, do you also disbelieve the arguments that dating shows that the fragments of the Gospels we have are not from the 1st century but from the 2nd centuries and later on? Or do you accept these facts, and the argument concluding from them that the Gospels were not written by Christ's disciples but rather people who lived centuries later? As a Christian, I would prefer if the fragments we have so far were dated to the 1st century. But it's not the case. I accept that, and use other historical sources as evidence that I believe shows the Gospels were written or dictated by the disciples.

    There are Muslims, like the Saudi Commission for Tourism and Antiquities, who also evidently agree with the dating of the tombs. To the best of my knowledge, they aren't Shias or Ahmadiyyas or Irshad Manjit's liberal crowd.

    So there are some Muslims who also agree that the buildings at Al Hijr were constructed by the Nabataeans, not the Thamud. Of course, this being true proves the Quran and Muhammad wrong, since they claim these structures were built by the Thamud in the time of Saleh.

    Take care and Allahma3k.
     
  6. LoveBeingAMuslimah

    LoveBeingAMuslimah Newbie

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    From the UNESCO pdf:

    "Amongst them, around thirty include inscriptions in the Nabataen language, which enables the dating of their construction."

    So that's how they're dating the tombs.....by looking at the inscriptions. SO all they're doing is roughly estimating the time period people when people made inscriptions into the rocks (and this is done by observing the language) and proposing that this is when the rocks were also carved into the tombs they are now. Therefore, that's just a hypothesis. It's an educated guess on their part, but a guess nonetheless.


    Because Allaah is specifically referring to the people to whom Prophet Saleh (peace be upon him) was sent. Mada'in Saleh = the cities of Saleh. Also, Allaah is not restricted to our terminology.


    And I am arguing that lack of archaeological evidence of people before the a time period does not mean that people did not already exist there and carved their homes into the rocks.

    Your whole argument rests on the assumption that the houses/tombs were carved at the same time as the inscriptions were made.

    They're not "admitting" that the Nabataens are the ones who carved the tombs. In fact, they mention (and seem to agree with) the tribes of Thamud settling here by the 3rd millennium BCE. Then they go on to mention that the earliest evidence we have of human settlement (from the inscriptions) is of the 1st millennium BCE. This does not mean that they discount the Qur'aan narration. Unlike UNESCO, they do not interpret the dating of the inscriptions to mean that's when the tombs were carved.


    I wasn't debating that. My point was that scientists have made an educated guess about evolution just like archaeologists and those who study inscriptions have made an educated guess about the tombs. I don't believe either of them are right, because it's just their interpretation of the data they have and that interpretation contradicts with the Qur'aan and sunnah (which I fully believe to be the truth).


    All I know and care about is that God said mankind corrupted the previous scriptures by adding or subtracting from them. I know this is the truth and I will not be surprised with any evidence that comes up that shows this.

    lol, did you remember all of the people/groups I have openly condemned on this forum (i.e. their beliefs)?

    Anyways, I disagree with your conclusion that they think the creation of the houses/tombs was at roughly the same time as the inscriptions. I got something else while reading from that same site.

    In any case, their opinion is not binding. They could also be wrong if they actually said & meant what you claim they meant. Just because they said it does not mean that other Muslims MUST take their word and agree with them.

    See above.

    You too
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  7. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Personally I don't think it makes any difference whether some of the stories in the Qur'an are precisely accurate in the historical sense anymore than I think it necessary for all the biblical narratives to be literally true. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl speaks to this issue in his letter to the head of the Ahmadiyyah sect. He had been asked about the account of Noah being a thousand years old and whether or not this should be literally. First Mirza Abu'l-Fadl points out that the story in question is ultimately derived from the Bible. Then he writes:

    "The Prophet Muhammad said, "We, the concourse of Prophets, were
    commanded to address the people according to the capacity of their
    minds," and, likewise, "Speak to the people of that with which they
    are familiar. Do you wish God and His Messenger to be accused of
    lying?" Thus was it related by the learned judge Muhammad ibn Ahmad
    Rushd al-Andalusí [Averroes] "It is well known that the Prophets and
    Manifestations of the Cause of God were sent to guide the nations, to
    refine their characters, and to bring the people nearer to their
    Source and Ultimate Goal. They were not sent as historians,
    astronomers, philosophers, or natural scientists the Prophets indulged
    the people in regard to their historical notions, folk stories, and
    scientific principles and spoke to them according to these. They
    conversed with them as was appropriate to their audience and hid
    realities behind the curtain of allusion. . . It has, then, been established that the historian cannot depend for historical knowledge upon the outward meanings of Qur'anic verses and that Noah and his like are not mentioned in the rest of the ancient histories." (Miracles and Metaphors pp. 39-40)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  8. Islam_mulia

    Islam_mulia Senior Veteran

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    There is No error in the Quran.

    i) The Quran and hadith specifically mentioned the people of Thamud, not Nabateans. The Thamuds lived at al-Hijr much earlier then the Nabateans, as traces of their writings could still be found at al-Hijr.

    ii) Neither the Quran or the hadith indicated that existing carvings of rocks were made by the Thamuds. The Quran specifically said the Thamuds built houses from rocks, not tombs, as TG123 correctly pointed out. The tombs, carved from rocks, were made by the Nabateans as verified by the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries.

    iii) The Quran indicated that the Thamuds were destroyed and their homes in ruins after God punished them for idol worshipping and not heeding the advise of Prophet Saleh. The Nabateans who moved in years later, probably built the tombs on the site where the Thamuds homes were destroyed.

    iv) The hadith was referring to the people of Thamuds who used to live at the same site as the Nabateans. Again, how TG123 came to the conclusion that the Quran claimed the existing building was Nabateans is beyond me, as it was written in the Quran that the homes of the Thamuds were destroyed:

    [FONT=tahoma, sans-serif]We sent aforetime, to the Thamud, their brother Saleh, saying, "Serve Allah" but beholds, they became two factions quarrelling with each other. He said, "Oh my people! Why ask ye to hasten on the evil in preference to the good? If only ye ask Allah for forgiveness, ye may hope to receive mercy." They said, "Ill omen do we augur from thee and those that are with thee." He said, "Your ill omen is with Allah, ye, ye are a people under trial. There were nine men in the city of a family who made mischief in the land, and would not reform. They said: "Swear a mutual oath by Allah that we shall make a secret night attack on him and his people, and that we shall then say to his heir when he seeks vengeance: “We were not present at the slaughter of his people, and we are positively telling the truth. They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not. Then see what the end of their plot was! This, that We destroyed them and their people, all of them. Now such were their houses, - in utter ruin - because they practiced wrongdoing. Verily in this is a Sign for people of knowledge. And We saved those who believed and practiced righteousness. (Surah al-Naml 45-53)[/FONT]
     
  9. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    Salaam Alaikum, Islam_Mulia. My computer is temporarily down so I will be off the forums for a few weeks until I get a new one. I will be very glad to respond to what you just wrote, and am looking forward to doing so when I can. Please do not forget this thread. I will reply at the latest in late August, and hopefully sooner inshAllah.
     
  10. sunrise0

    sunrise0 Guest

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    To prove a fault in the holy quran you have to prove it is not revealed by god.
    No one can do that
    If the picture is for tombs and not houses this does not refute the fact that the houses were also carved in the mountains, to the contrary it proves it because naturaly people care for the residencies while alive more than they do after they die
    Another important point is the aim of mentioning this story and other similar stories is not teaching us about ancient people, but to tell us that God punishes the disobedient regardless of their strength and wealth
     
  11. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

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    Salaam Alaikum, Sunrise. My computer is temporarily down so I will be off the forums for a few weeks until I get a new one. I will be very glad to respond to what you just wrote, and am looking forward to doing so when I can. Please do not forget this thread. I will reply at the latest in late August, and hopefully sooner inshAllah.
     
  12. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Seeing that Islam is the new kid on the block of Abrahamic religions, it seems to me that the onus is on the Koran to prove that it is revealed by God, not the other way around.
     
  13. sunrise0

    sunrise0 Guest

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    Wa alakum
    Sorry about your pc and hope it will be fixed soon
     
  14. sunrise0

    sunrise0 Guest

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    Islam is not a new religion. It is the same and only religion God sent since He created Adam. It means we must worship the One and Only God and disobey Satan. This was the message of the thousands of prophets God sent to all humans.their messages were local and temporary. Islam now is God,s final message for all nations.the Holy Quran is God,s Book which contains everything necessary for us to know.
    To claim that there is a fault in the Holy Quran or it is the writing of humans must be proved by the claimer . A muslims duty is to correct such claim as seen in this thread. If you need more proofs you can google (is the quran God,s word) I can not do that because the rules here forbids it

    Saying that muslims have to prove this is like saying someone who claims a person attacked him must be proved by another
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2013
  15. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    It's new. No one ever heard of it before Mohammed. No one kept the Five Pillars or read the Koran etc etc. It CLAIMS to be old, because it borrows from and reinterprets the older religions, that's all.
     
  16. Masihi

    Masihi love based faith is truer than fear based faith

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    Christianity aside, islam re-wrote pre-existing Abrahamic based scriptures and thus history and muslims now struggle with making sense of it all denying all non-Koran material.

    "When ilah revealed the Koran to momed, no one shared his experience so that anyone who believed in him had to take his word. But even if a great number of people put blind trust in his claims, sharing beliefs with many people does not prove that ilah exists. The strength of a blind faith cannot materialize or give life to the creature of a fantasy. When many people shared his false beliefs about reality, it became a mass delusion - the allah delusion." - sujit das

    available at Amazon
     
  17. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Hey, us Baha'is are the new kid on the block of Abrahamic religions. :)
     
  18. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Submission to God (which is what Islam means) is not new. But obviously the revelation of the Qur'an is newer than that of the Bible. There is a verse in the Qur'an which states, "Abraham was neither Jew or Christian, but he was a Muslim." I think what it was trying to say is that Abraham was not a part of the sectarian disputes that became Judaism and Christianity, but hewas submissive to God. It is an acknowlegement that there is only one religion and all of the Messengers of God have progressively revealed its nature. Unfortunately what Muslims have done with this is assume that the precepts of their particular version of Islam is the same as all the religions of the past, which historically is simply not true.
     
  19. Masihi

    Masihi love based faith is truer than fear based faith

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    I think submission (blind submission of Koran) is new and not found in either Judaism or Christianity. The word submit is not found.
     
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