Erecting Walls: Us vs. Them

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2004
1,092
40
81
Nacogdoches Texas
✟8,962.00
Faith
Christian
Someone on another thread (‘Tact’ thread, I think) suggested a thread on our insistence in using denominational and subgroup labels – Arminian, Assembly of God, Baptist, Calvinist, Catholic, Charismatic, Evangelical, Holiness, Lutheran, Oneness, Pentecostal, Perfectionist, Protestant, Reformed, Trinitarian, Word of Faith, etc.etc., ad infinitum. The hasn’t appeared yet, so I will offer it.

All of this sub-dividing reminds me of the announcement in the newspaper that read:
New church. Evangelical, Calvinistic, non-denom., premillennial, traditional, non-contemporary, non-liturgical, non-Charismatic, non-Pentecostal, non-Messianic, no sandals, no shorts, no jewelry, baptistic, KJV-Only, young earth creationist, pro-life, whites only. Call 765-4321. Everyone welcome.​

I know it is natural to group ourselves and it helps us to understand how we are similar (or dissimilar) to one another, but do you think it is pleasing to the Lord in the light of the following scriptures?:

John 17
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

1 Corinthians 1
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Psalm 133
1 How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!​

And I know that our tendency to want to be exclusive from those who do not agree with us is perfectly normal. It was even evident in both testaments in the Bible:
Mark 9
38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us.

Numbers 11
24 So Moses went out and told the people what the LORD had said. He brought together seventy of their elders and had them stand around the Tent. 25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again. 26 However, two men, whose names were Eldad and Medad, had remained in the camp. They were listed among the elders, but did not go out to the Tent. Yet the Spirit also rested on them, and they prophesied in the camp. 27 A young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp." 28 Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses' aide since youth, spoke up and said, "Moses, my lord, stop them!" 29 But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"​

But, even so, How do you feel about our tendency to subdivide ourselves into all of these clearly defined exclusive groups?

Do you think it creates walls and barriers (us vs. them) to understanding?

Is it pleasing to God?

Is there anything we can do about it?

\o/



Other scriptures against sectarianism​


Other scriptures against sectarianism (i.e, pro-unity):
Matthew 23
8You are all brothers.

Acts 4
32All the believers were one in heart and mind.

Romans 12
16Live in harmony with one another.

Romans 14
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Romans 15
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1
27 stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel.

Philippians 2
2 having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
 

Andyman_1970

Trying to walk in His dust...............
Feb 2, 2004
4,069
208
53
The Natural State
Visit site
✟12,840.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jim B said:
But, even so, How do you feel about our tendency to subdivide ourselves into all of these clearly defined exclusive groups?

Good post Jim.

I fell into this mindset alot when I was a baby Christian. I worked with a guy who was a great Christian mentor to me, but he was a member of a Charismatic church and I was (am) a member of a Southern Baptist church. We had a lot in common, but one thing I just could not get past (and I'll admit it was my own immaturity) was the whole speaking in tongues issue. I kept wanting him to see things my way.

Now I'll say today, I have a whole different view of the speaking in tongues issue. I know what and why I believe what I believe, but I also understand that God works in each of us differently.

Jim B said:
Do you think it creates walls and barriers (us vs. them) to understanding?

Not only do I think it creates walls between Christians, but I also think the world very much sees this and these "walls" just add to there view of us being hypocrites.
 
Upvote 0

PottersClay

Servant of the Most High
Mar 10, 2004
194
11
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟15,375.00
Faith
Christian
jimb said:
But, even so, How do you feel about our tendency to subdivide ourselves into all of these clearly defined exclusive groups?
I cant put into words how much this tendency upsets me. It divides the church, creates "have" and "have not" attitudes, it causes division, dissention, disdain, bitterness, hatred, pride, judgementalism and the list goes on endlessly.

I was so fortunate to have spent the first 20 years of my walk with the Lord in churches that these lines of division were just not issues. Then I moved, and it was a terrible shock to my system. I've never seen so much division and dissention in all my life, and to be honest, I simply do not understand it.

Do you think it creates walls and barriers (us vs. them) to understanding?
Without doubt, yes. I've had people tell me labels were good because it helps to understand a person's position without having to spend hours explaining where they're coming from, but in my experience, if I say I beleive such and such and that particular belief happens to be part of so and so's camp, what I've said is now perceived through the filter of why that "camp" believes that and makes all kinds of assumptions of all my other beliefs--and all of this based on something I never really said in the first place.

I think if I hadnt been on the recieving end of such nonsense, I'd have never realized how destructive it could be.

Is it pleasing to God?
You're kidding, right? If it makes me as heart sick as it does, I can only imagine what it does to the heart of God. :cry:

Is there anything we can do about it?
There must be, I just dont know what. All I know to do is try to build bridges whenever I can. But I think we have to start by dropping the stupid labels. And stop assuming someone fits into any particular labels.

Andyman_1970 said:
Not only do I think it creates walls between Christians, but I also think the world very much sees this and these "walls" just add to there view of us being hypocrites.
I totally agree.
 
Upvote 0

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2004
1,092
40
81
Nacogdoches Texas
✟8,962.00
Faith
Christian
PottersClay said:
I totally agree.
Probably most of us agree. But walls do exist in this forum. People are invited to leave the forum because their views are not “charismatic” (as though all charismatics agree on all things) and a lot of ill-will is generated because people (us) will not tolerate others’ (them) beliefs. How can we ever prove the veracity of what we believe if our beliefs are never challenged or disputed?

Personally, I have enjoyed posts on this forum that challenge my own beliefs and I have even had to change my views because well-studied individuals have proven me, ouch!, wrong. It does not make me defensive to hear other views. I am thankful for them. It makes me dig deeper into God’s Word.

My point is, if we are willing to gently debate our difference we can only grow in our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will all be better for it.

It has proven to be the case with me.

Let’s not forget, we are all family and we are all seekers after truth.

Okay, so much for the lecture …..

\o/
 
Upvote 0

ChristianRocks

Christ lives in me and I in Him.
Feb 4, 2004
515
38
40
Edmonton, Alberta
Visit site
✟8,368.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Probably most of us agree. But walls do exist in this forum. People are invited to leave the forum because their views are not “charismatic” (as though all charismatics agree on all things) and a lot of ill-will is generated because people (us) will not tolerate others’ (them) beliefs. How can we ever prove the veracity of what we believe if our beliefs are never challenged or disputed?

Personally, I have enjoyed posts on this forum that challenge my own beliefs and I have even had to change my views because well-studied individuals have proven me, ouch!, wrong. It does not make me defensive to hear other views. I am thankful for them. It makes me dig deeper into God’s Word.

My point is, if we are willing to gently debate our difference we can only grow in our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will all be better for it.

It has proven to be the case with me.

Let’s not forget, we are all family and we are all seekers after truth.

*snaps and points finger* Woot! That's why I love your posts, brother! Couldn't of said it any better myself.

God's greatest command for us was to love one another, as he loved us. And maybe that's the key to this; love that is. Love is such a powerful "tool", if you will. And often it is neglected and put into a corner and forgotten. Love roams the streets looking for people to use him. He asks the people who pass by, "Won't you use me? I can help. I am patient. I am kind. I don't keep any records of your wrong-doings. I don't even boast! I don't keep things for myself, and I don't even require a fee." But we usually look the other way.


Like Potterclay said, there exists dissention and disdain, etc. because of the said labels of christians. It's not something that is normal, in my mind. Love is hard pressed to do it's work in such conditions. It really takes a change of heart for such things to fade away. And that requires God's love.

Meditate on these verses:

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:46-48

also this is said in Luke:

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. Luke 6:32

It is easy to love someone who has no quarrel with you, but this verse talks about love of another kind. The kind of love that you pour out when you talk to a person, say, of another denomination. It's not so easy is it. Love is one of the things which is hard to grasp. Yet I know love has no bounds, this cannot be labelled. It seeks to be used. Love has that wonderful effect of planting fruitful seeds in people, since God can use our love actions as an avenue for his spirit to work and till that soil inside. Both in the brothers and sisters we deal with daily and the non-christians alike. This applies to christians of any denomination as well. And that is why, in my understanding, love is crucial to tear those walls of denominational borders down. If I meet a christian on the streets, do I first ask him what denomination he is? Or what group he belongs to? Probably not. It is not of utmost importance. We may ask, "How did you become a christian?", or yet, "How did you come to know the Lord?" When we meet a new brother and sister we go to the roots of our beliefs and stem from there. Not the other way around. Thus, I think grouping is not important, if at all needed. It is of no importance to Christ what group you belong to, so why should this concern me? We are to be like Jesus, right? Like Jesus said in Matthew 22:39:

"And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

That neighbour could be a catholic, a jew, a pagan, a politician, or a christian: it matters not. The use of love; this "tool" called love, can be used on anything at anyplace. It doesn't need to change bits, or need a supercombobulator to fit in that tight spot. It works as is, and if we let it do its work, the results might be suprising indeed. We may undergo suffering and hardship in the process, but remember that love works deep to the core. It can get at the roots which seem SO thick and rough. We may see the situation and lose hope and say, "How can this get any better?". But remember, also, that the Holy Spirit uses love as a seed to grow good fruit within! In fact, love is a fruit of the spirit, too! So it all works together. Love is strong enough to break these walls of dissent and prejudice.

There is hope. Remember this verse if you think otherwise:

"also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." Romans 5:3-5

In him our hearts rejoice,
for we trust in his holy name.
May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD ,
even as we put our hope in you. Psalm 33:21-23


How priceless is your unfailing love!
Both high and low among men
find refuge in the shadow of your wings. Psalm 36:6-8


Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever. Psalm 136:2

Amen.


Grace to you all! God bless your day today. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marissa
Upvote 0

Trish1947

Free to Believe
Nov 14, 2003
7,645
411
77
California
Visit site
✟24,917.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
In Revelation the churches are just referred to as the church in....(town location)
Love to have it that way. But some want to be identified by doctrine instead of being identified with Christ. The church back then never looked at themselves as separate of each other I dont think, even though they did have their problems, but it was the Lord that was going to straighten them out quickly. There is so much diversity of beliefs, that if they didn't have titles, you would spend alot of time looking for the church that coinsides with your beliefs. So maybe its not a bad thing having a denominational name. Or a non-denom name.
 
Upvote 0

Perceivence

Defend.
Sep 7, 2003
1,012
96
London, UK
Visit site
✟9,154.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To elaborate.

I'm all for the unity of the church. However, dropping the labels will not remove the differences that exist. The labels are a result of the differences, not the other way around.

Strangely, I believe the labels were originally made in an effort to unify those of similar beliefs. Just as how Christians differentiate themselves from the world with the label "Christian," Protestants sought to differentiate themselves from Catholics with that label. Although, as I said, the label is not what makes them different, the label helps to show the difference.

Of coures, my analogy between Christians and the world and between denominations stops where I pointed out. We're called to be separate from the world, but to be unified as family.

I honestly don't believe that the labels or differences will ever disappear in the present age. I believe that the intended interpretation of the Bible and what God wants from us, His people, can only be arrived at if we interpret it through the Holy Spirit working through our on power, and not through our own power alone. When we rely on what we know and don't consult the Holy Spirit on what is said, all sorts of disputes, apparent discrepancies and differences crop up simply because of the vast variation of those who do the interpretation.

By relying on the Holy Spirit, we eliminate the subjective errors and understand what was said. There's no better way of understanding a written work than asking the authoer himself.
 
Upvote 0

LynneClomina

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2004
1,929
101
50
Canada
Visit site
✟17,768.00
Faith
Calvinist
i like "labels" alot, because it helps me understand where someone is coming from. but i am careful to try to not let it be a division, i try to use it more to be sensitive and prevent offending somebody by inadvertantly saying something i assume they agree with or even understand, and it gives an opportunity to ask questions to understand each other and BRIDGE the barriers.

i dont think the answer is telling everyone else to drop their labels... i think the answer is, "what are we doing with these labels?" do WE use them as a basis to reject somebody? or do we use it as an opportunity to be kind and loving and bridge the gaps?

in other words, the onus isnt on everybody else to change what they are doing (labelling themselves) but for US to change what WE are doing (how we think of them after learning their label).
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
19,640
3,658
Midlands
Visit site
✟551,529.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We erect walls with the intention that they become fortresses of truth. Seeing as we are never in total possession of that commodity, these fortresses are in reality prisons. Every believer who is listening to God eventually outgrows the limitations of their church. What was once a place of safely and comfort is suddenly found to be a Berlin wall that separates brothers from each other. The day that you overcome your own narrow mindedness and fear is the day that you "tear down the wall!"

Here is a little spiritual song for you:


Tear down your walls of tradition.
Tear down your fortress of fear.
Cast off all those silent suspicions.
Call all your brethern near!

The labels and titles you cherish
Serve only to hide your true heart
Beneath all that fear and ambition
is a spirit that's longing to start,

(to)
Tear down your walls of tradition.
Tear down your fortress of fear.
Cast off all those silent suspicions.
Call all your brethern near!



A Didy Ditty!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2004
1,092
40
81
Nacogdoches Texas
✟8,962.00
Faith
Christian
LynneClomina said:
i like "labels" alot, because it helps me understand where someone is coming from. but i am careful to try to not let it be a division, i try to use it more to be sensitive and prevent offending somebody by inadvertantly saying something i assume they agree with or even understand, and it gives an opportunity to ask questions to understand each other and BRIDGE the barriers.

i dont think the answer is telling everyone else to drop their labels... i think the answer is, "what are we doing with these labels?" do WE use them as a basis to reject somebody? or do we use it as an opportunity to be kind and loving and bridge the gaps?

in other words, the onus isnt on everybody else to change what they are doing (labelling themselves) but for US to change what WE are doing (how we think of them after learning their label).
Hi Lynne,

May I respectfully disagree and explain why I think we should drop (or at least resist) labels.

You like labels a lot "because it helps me understand where someone is coming from" ...

… But, in fact, labels do NOT help us know what someone believes. In fact, it does quite the opposite.

No two Baptists believe precisely the same thing and you could say the same for Lutherans, Assembly of God, Methodists, Catholics, or any other member of any other denomination. And that’s why labels are wrong, they become the basis for prejudgment. We draw unfounded conclusions once we label someone. For example, because a man goes to a Baptist church we naturally assume he must, therefore, believe OSAS - but I know lots of Baptists who don’t believe OSAS, they just prefer the fellowship of a particular Baptist church. She is AG so she believes that you have to speak in tongues to be baptized in the Holy Spirit; but she doesn’t - she is AG because she likes the way they sing. They are Presbyterian so, therefore, they believe in TULIP, but they don’t. They were just raised Presbyterian and that’s where they are most comfortable.

In this information age, when people are more exposed to differing Christian ways of thinking than in the past, the less they are committed to one narrow denominational point of view. Denominational creeds and doctrines are not as binding (and blinding) as they once were and, ergo, denominational labels no longer serve to identify people like they once did.

Do Charismatics all believe the same thing? Not if this forum is any indication.

For instance, although I believe in most of what Charismatics believe (theologically), I do not want to be labeled Charismatic because that carries (IMO) a lot of baggage that does not identify me. The minute I accept the label I have to accept what it identifies in the minds of people. And a large proportion of Charismatic practices are, in my opinion, fanaticism/extremism gone to seed, condoned, and even promoted (just check out some of the threads in this forum). If I accept the Charismatic label, I have to accept all that it identifies in people’s minds – so I prefer not to be identified with what I consider foolish behavior that does nothing but please the flesh, make you look psychotic, and stir unneeded controversy.

Thanks but no thanks.

Having said that, people in this forum who love the Charismatic (or WOF, or Pentecostal) label now will begin asking me to be banned from posting here; thus proving my point that all labels really accomplish is to erect walls.

\o/
 
Upvote 0

PottersClay

Servant of the Most High
Mar 10, 2004
194
11
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟15,375.00
Faith
Christian
Jim B said:
You like labels a lot "because it helps me understand where someone is coming from" ...

? But, in fact, labels do NOT help us know what someone believes. In fact, it does quite the opposite.

No two Baptists believe precisely the same thing and you could say the same for Lutherans, Assembly of God, Methodists, Catholics, or any other member of any other denomination. And that?s why labels are wrong, they become the basis for prejudgment. We draw unfounded conclusions once we label someone. For example, because a man goes to a Baptist church we naturally assume he must, therefore, believe OSAS - but I know lots of Baptists who don?t believe OSAS, they just prefer the fellowship of a particular Baptist church. She is AG so she believes that you have to speak in tongues to be baptized in the Holy Spirit; but she doesn?t - she is AG because she likes the way they sing. They are Presbyterian so, therefore, they believe in TULIP, but they don?t. They were just raised Presbyterian and that?s where they are most comfortable.

Exactly!

What can we do to make this happen?
 
Upvote 0

Perceivence

Defend.
Sep 7, 2003
1,012
96
London, UK
Visit site
✟9,154.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are and always will be variations among people within a common denomination. However, the labelling and identification with the denomination despite these differences and because of what they see as a greater commonality is a major reason why so many see labels as useful.

When one takes on a label, that does not mean that you are 100% true to that label. The world knows from experiences that this is especially true for 'Christians'. (And that should not be.) Similarly, when someone says he's "Charismatic" it applies only to the core belief of Charismatics, which is the manifestation of the Gifts of the Spirit in the church today and in its believers.

Naturally, with a core belief or value comes many resulting beliefs. Charismatics, for example, tend to take the Bible more literally and have generally more faith in God's power than others. It is a requirement of the belief of the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit. (Some may also say that we're more naive, too.)

These beliefs that result from the core ones are the variation among people of a single denomination. They are seldom the same from person to person, but they're almost always similar because of their basis. (The degree of similarity tends to vary with denomination.) It is this similarity - this commonolaity - that supports the unification as a denomination.

Sadly, this unification as a denomination usually tends to miss God's greater will for us as unification as a single church. One finds that the core beliefs of Jesus being the incarnate Son of God and God Himself, and that he was crucified for our sins, rose again three days later, ascended to heaven and later sent the Holy Spirit lend a lot to varying subordinate beliefs. As I said in my previous post, people see things differently because people are people. This has gone so far as some even denying some of the aforementioned core beliefs....

But I digressed.

Really, I don't see the point of dropping labels when the division still exists. It's like someone willing blinding himself to something that he knows exists - something that he doesn't want to exist - but hasn't been able to do something about it. The blinding does nothing to the reality of the situation, it only affects the perceptions of those blinding themselves.

Some may say that the blinding may be a step towards actually changing that reality, and that may be so. It's possible that, if we begin to drop the labels, we'll be able to overlook the differences and see the similarities like what members within a denomination do. It's possible...

...however, it's also possible that dropping the labels will promote a temporary closeness that will be shattered by the amazing differences. After all, the divisions arose in the first place because the different sides saw the differences as too large to just ignore.

*sigh*
 
Upvote 0

LynneClomina

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2004
1,929
101
50
Canada
Visit site
✟17,768.00
Faith
Calvinist
yeah, labels are generalizations of basic basic basic beliefs.

charismatic = gifts of the spirit, non-cessationist
calvinist = the sovereignty of God over everything, and TULIP - though not always all 5 points.
arminian = it's my responsibility for me to go to heaven, and other's responsibility if they go to heaven or hell.

yeah, you get the idea. and because of all the lutherans i can now identify as lutherans, i am learning alot about that denomination's practices that i had no clue about before. - and am learning that even in that well founded denomination, there are somevariations. and all that wouldnt have stuck in my head if i didnt see that little flower ever time one of them posted. so i feel it's brought me much more understanding.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.