Episcopal Church

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don't give a reading list per se. I simply advise a lot of reading and making sure you fully understand the theology, faith, values, and morality of the communion into which you plan to enter. I find that prudent with anything. I'm a researcher. It's my nature. I want to understand and fully be on board with something, be able to know in my conscience that I am part of something I truly believe in. I wouldn't join a church just because they have a cool youth group or nice people or a neat building or lots of charity and Bible studies. I want to know their views on everything.

To be frank, it doesn't take ten years to look into the basics but do as you wish and may God bless you in your search.

I politely disagree. One does not need a degree in theology to choose the right church for them. I agree that reading and asking is very good, but Gurney Halleck's required reading list would take me years to finish. For me, being part of a church community is important. After getting my head around the basics -- good luck when it comes to the churches represented in this forum, you are better to learn about the church in question from the priest -- I would need to experience a bit of it before going to the library for all of that heavy reading. But this is me.

...Me/HHM

 

[HisHomeMaker]

I'm a researcher. It's my nature.

I imagine that each personality type approaches church differently.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

True. Understanding the church one is about to enter, however, is bare bones basic common sense to me. There are nice people, youth groups, charity, and all sorts of nice stuff at the Mormon Church. Unfortunately they believe in

spirit babies
pre-existence
an angel Moroni burying secret plates in Palmyra, NY
a secret lost civilization that never existed
a future life on the Planet Kolob
false gospels
rejection of the Holy Trinity
that God the Father has human flesh
that Jesus was a man evolved into a god
that God the Father has a Goddess consort

So, a nice group of people, great fellowship, youth groups, soccer tournaments, clean cut lifestyle, missionary zeal, kindness, etc. are not enough for me. When I read this stuff, I'm OUTTA THERE!

Same with Presbyterianism, Reformed religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most others. I want to see the Fathers, apostolic succession, 7 Sacraments, consistency, an ancient and beautiful liturgy, and a Church that shows coherent faith and devotion to ancient truths.

So that's how I approach it. A lot of reading, prayer, analysis, caution, and dialogue. I don't leap fast!

Again, though, I sure wish you well and hope you land where God wants you!

gurney

I imagine that each personality type approaches church differently.

 

[truthseeker32]

Well, Lily, I just say take it slowly. No rush. The Holy Spirit is working in your life. I'm not a "conservative" either in politics or "real life" but rather in social issues like abortion, homosexuality, cohabitation, and other lifestyles. Politically I voted for Obama and plan to do so again. I'm a teacher, a union representative on my campus, pro-environment, a "tree-hugger," a vegetarian, pro-entitlements, and many other facets of my personality are liberal. I am also conservative in other ways. So I think it's healthy to be a little of both. I just say to take your time and look at all avenues. The Lutherans like LCMS and WELS Lutheran groups are great, ACNA is decent, and I'd look at Catholicism and Orthodoxy as well. Give them all a chance, read A LOT OF CHURCH HISTORY AND THE FATHERS, and don't be guided by the whims of the age, be guided holistically by the whole thing.

You sound like God is working something special in your. I wish you the best and will pray for your journey and His help! Good luck to you!

This is good advice, gurney. When I began looking for a church I started with liberal religions (Episcopal, Presbyterian, Buddhism, etc.) until I realized I should conform to God. God shouldn't conform to me. I am not judging. This is, of course, just my personal view. Who knows? God might hold the Anglican/ Episcopalian churches to be quite favorable.

I also like your politics

 

[mark46]

So, now Baptist, the Reformed Churches (some think we are one), and Presbyterians and "most others" are analagous to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses?

I trust and pray that all of us will land where God wants us.

True. Understanding the church one is about to enter, however, is bare bones basic common sense to me. There are nice people, youth groups, charity, and all sorts of nice stuff at the Mormon Church. Unfortunately they believe in

spirit babies
pre-existence
an angel Moroni burying secret plates in Palmyra, NY
a secret lost civilization that never existed
a future life on the Planet Kolob
false gospels
rejection of the Holy Trinity
that God the Father has human flesh
that Jesus was a man evolved into a god
that God the Father has a Goddess consort

So, a nice group of people, great fellowship, youth groups, soccer tournaments, clean cut lifestyle, missionary zeal, kindness, etc. are not enough for me. When I read this stuff, I'm OUTTA THERE!

Same with Presbyterianism, Reformed religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most others. I want to see the Fathers, apostolic succession, 7 Sacraments, consistency, an ancient and beautiful liturgy, and a Church that shows coherent faith and devotion to ancient truths.

So that's how I approach it. A lot of reading, prayer, analysis, caution, and dialogue. I don't leap fast!

Again, though, I sure wish you well and hope you land where God wants you!

gurney

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When did I say they're analogous, Mark? I listed several churches that I would point out have things that I disagree with. Did I ever say that Baptist churches are analogous to Mormons? I must've missed that, brother.

So, now Baptist, the Reformed Churches (some think we are one), and Presbyterians and "most others" are analagous to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses?

I trust and pray that all of us will land where God wants us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's almost a curse to be independent. People can never figure me out. When they hear that I'm opposed to women's ordination, they think I must love the Bachman, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, good ole boy club. They find out I'm politically pretty liberal and yet socially really conservative, and the anger kicks in. Both sides feel betrayed and hate my guts. That is evident in here, not politically, but religiously. If I criticize the pope, I'm anti-papal and a John Paul-hater, which couldn't be farther from the truth. If I say that Islam is NOT equal to Christianity and that we shouldn't pray with them, I'm an isolationist Muslim-hater. People can't fathom that I can respect people, be willing to work with them, grant them every freedom I deserve, and yet not want to pray with them. LOL...or that I can like Anglicanism and yet not like evangelicalism. Then they think I'm nuts for liking the Orthodox thinking on so many issues. For some Anglicans, you're either a progressive who's hip and with it or you're one of those nasty traditionalists, dangerous in that you're so static and rigid! You can't win.

I think intellectual honesty is my cornerstone. I don't compromise to fit into a box. And when I don't fit into people's boxes, I get a strong reaction. That's too bad. I think in the "real" world, people are generally pretty independent and not in boxes. The Tea Partiers and the hardcore Move On. org people are minorities and oddballs. The typical American is a little liberal in some areas, conservative on others. And that applies to religion and politics I'd say.

Being independent and intellectually honest without the P.C. modernist shroud is just not the in thing!

This is good advice, gurney. When I began looking for a church I started with liberal religions (Episcopal, Presbyterian, Buddhism, etc.) until I realized I should conform to God. God shouldn't conform to me. I am not judging. This is, of course, just my personal view. Who knows? God might hold the Anglican/ Episcopalian churches to be quite favorable.

I also like your politics

 

[mark46]

You listed a litany of misguided Mormon doctrines and then stated,

So, a nice group of people, great fellowship, youth groups, soccer tournaments, clean cut lifestyle, missionary zeal, kindness, etc. are not enough for me. When I read this stuff, I'm OUTTA THERE!

Same with Presbyterianism, Reformed religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most others. I want to see the Fathers, apostolic succession, 7 Sacraments, consistency, an ancient and beautiful liturgy, and a Church that shows coherent faith and devotion to ancient truths.

So that's how I approach it.

You did not simply list a group of churches with which you disagreed. You gave one long example, indicated how strongly you felt (the largest strawman in the history of STR; no one here support Mormonism). You then transitioned with "same as" and made a list.

Even if I thought that I interpreted this, I was left with a list of churches clearly listed in the same category: Presbyterians, Reformed Religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and most others.
==============================
I think that you have been clear in your attitudes toward TEC and some other churches in our STR fellowship, toward other faiths, and now toward non-apostolic churches.

So, for me, I would not make a point of listing the essentials for the church I attend by listing Presbyterians, "Reformed Religions" and Baptists in the same category as Jehovah's Witnesses. I just wouldn't do that, and would expect criticism if I did.

When did I say they're analogous, Mark? I listed several churches that I would point out have things that I disagree with. Did I ever say that Baptist churches are analogous to Mormons? I must've missed that, brother.

 

[Robin_Mat23:12]

Hello, all. (Gurney, say hi to the Duke for me.)

It is hard trying to take an independent viewpoint. But it's impossible to buy in to the "mainstream" in an intellectually honest way. I don't think there's much choice.

Look at the people who publicly represent Christian opinion: James Dobson. Jerry Falwell. And Pat Robertson. That's what the world sees.
These people stand in front of cameras with straight faces and tell the world that gay people cause hurricanes.
If natural disasters in the 21st century are God's punishment, what about the wildfires in Texas?

The only possible answer:
The record-setting fires and destruction are God's retribution for Rick Perry's false-flag Christianity, his exaltation of himself, and his ostentatious piety.

His life is the exact opposite of what is taught by the beattitudes.
God does not want Rick Perry to be his representative here on earth.

God does not want Rick Perry to be the next president.

-Robin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nope. All I did was give an example of a church where the niceties and externals look great. Nice people. I truly have observed that Mormons are about the nicest people I've ever met. They'll bend over backwards for ya. They'll go to the ends of the earth to help ya out regardless of religion. They're clean cut, kind, don't drink, honest, industrious, and responsible by and large. They have great fellowship, community, missionary efforts, youth groups, you name it. But theologically they're in the Twilight Zone or the Crab Nebula of theology. I used it to illustrate to the poster, the OP, that externals only mean so much to me and theology, patristics, history, tradition, sacraments, and spirituality with Biblical coherence matter more. I chose Mormonism because it is extreme. But the Nazarenes, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and the rest have great externals as well. You don't join a church communion for those reasons, you do it for theology as well. That was the point. You're thinking too deeply into it, Mark LOL...

When I say "same with," anybody knows I'm not linking the prophecies of Joseph Smith to Presbyterianism. You know that full well, Mark. I'm saying that the externals are THE SAME with them. Honestly, if you attended a Mormon youth group, community project, fellowship, coffee hour, etc. you'd not notice a difference. It's when they whip out Doctrines & Covenants, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and other Joseph Smith specials that you'd ask, "huh?" But externally they're all pretty similar. My point again: you join a Church for depth of theology, not for externals because those can be had anywhere....

Don't worry, Mark, I "expect criticism" from you every time I have a key stroke! LOL...I've learned from experience! :o:o:o

You listed a litany of misguided Mormon doctrines and then stated,

So, a nice group of people, great fellowship, youth groups, soccer tournaments, clean cut lifestyle, missionary zeal, kindness, etc. are not enough for me. When I read this stuff, I'm OUTTA THERE!

Same with Presbyterianism, Reformed religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and most others. I want to see the Fathers, apostolic succession, 7 Sacraments, consistency, an ancient and beautiful liturgy, and a Church that shows coherent faith and devotion to ancient truths.

So that's how I approach it.

You did not simply list a group of churches with which you disagreed. You gave one long example, indicated how strongly you felt (the largest strawman in the history of STR; no one here support Mormonism). You then transitioned with "same as" and made a list.

Even if I thought that I interpreted this, I was left with a list of churches clearly listed in the same category: Presbyterians, Reformed Religions, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and most others.
==============================
I think that you have been clear in your attitudes toward TEC and some other churches in our STR fellowship, toward other faiths, and now toward non-apostolic churches.

So, for me, I would not make a point of listing the essentials for the church I attend by listing Presbyterians, "Reformed Religions" and Baptists in the same category as Jehovah's Witnesses. I just wouldn't do that, and would expect criticism if I did.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Duke Leto and Lady Jessica say hi! Duncan Idaho's latest ghola says "aloha!"

Apologies to all you non-Dune fans not getting our humor here...or should I say "humour" for my British mates here....

Hello, all. (Gurney, say hi to the Duke for me.)

It is hard trying to take an independent viewpoint. But it's impossible to buy in to the "mainstream" in an intellectually honest way. I don't think there's much choice.

Look at the people who publicly represent Christian opinion: James Dobson. Jerry Falwell. And Pat Robertson. That's what the world sees.
These people stand in front of cameras with straight faces and tell the world that gay people cause hurricanes.
If natural disasters in the 21st century are God's punishment, what about the wildfires in Texas?

The only possible answer:
The record-setting fires and destruction are God's retribution for Rick Perry's false-flag Christianity, his exaltation of himself, and his ostentatious piety.

His life is the exact opposite of what is taught by the beattitudes.
God does not want Rick Perry to be his representative here on earth.

God does not want Rick Perry to be the next president.

-Robin

 

[Adam Warlock]

a secret lost civilization that never existed
a future life on the Planet Kolob

aka Battlestar Galactica, which is basically Mormonism in space.

 

[MKJ]

One thing Episcopal churches, and Anglican churches in general, can be pretty good at is a place to hang your hat while you figure things out.

 

[Maid Marie]

One thing Episcopal churches, and Anglican churches in general, can be pretty good at is a place to hang your hat while you figure things out.

That's a main reason for me.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

One thing Episcopal churches, and Anglican churches in general, can be pretty good at is a place to hang your hat while you figure things out.

So true. And if you happen to be in a parish like mine, if you do figure that your beliefs are a bit different than your pew mates', you may still fit in that congregation. Discussions with members of my church are often like discussions here on CF (albeit usually much kinder). We can't agree on everything but we do agree we love our church and each other.

 

[Catherineanne]

The Rev. has been very nice and emailing with me. Of course the best way to know how a church is, is to visit. I can not visit tomorrow as my husband and boys went camping, so I do not have my car. I do need to do more prayer on this.

I have social anxiety, so going into any new setting with new people is hard for me. Going into a church I am so unfamiliar with is harder. I have always going to Baptist churches(some very bad experiences) and non-denominational.

If you have social anxiety (and I have this as well, so I know what it is like) then the most important factor is going to be how caring the priest is, and how loving his congregation proves to be.

I would not worry for now about the liturgy etc; that is secondary to the love that a good church will demonstrate, particularly to a vulnerable person such as yourself.

My own church has a very traditional liturgy, but that would be meaningless if they did not also have a very caring priest and a lovely congregation. In the end, that is what matters. I love the ancient liturgy myself, and all that goes with it. But if the heart were not in the church first, liturgy would not be enough on its own.

I have been reading up on the ancient liturgy and I am very intrigued. I like the setting of "come as you are", as every church I have been to has been like that, but one(very bad experience), the modern praise and worship music and then tradition.

I would love to seek out someone here to talk to with about ancient liturgy since it is foreign to me.

Since this church is Charismatic Episcopal does it fall here is this part of the forum. Does it go under the Charismatic part of the forum?

I want to be in the right place, especially if this does be where the Lord is leading me. Which so far I think he is. I am still praying on this as I feel that is very important to do.

I think as long as it is Episcopal you are fine here. Actually, you are fine here anyway; there is no need not to feel welcome.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is a strength to some folks and a tremendous weakness to others. The wide, vast array of anything from soup to nuts theologically that exists in Anglicanism has created a "stepping stone church" situation. Many people transition into either evangelicalism, Catholicism, or Orthodoxy with Anglicanism being the theological waiting room. That is not good at all! It creates a culture of transition and ephemeral commitments as well as there can never be any permanent character to Anglicanism.

Likewise, Anglicanism has become a "compromise" church, sadly. A guy is Baptist, marries a Catholic woman. She won't go Baptist, he won't go Catholic...tah-dah! They go Anglican....that story drives me NUTS!

Right now I think the stepping stone + compromise thing is tearing Anglicanism apart...

One thing Episcopal churches, and Anglican churches in general, can be pretty good at is a place to hang your hat while you figure things out.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

Is Anglicanism a waiting room or is it a faith of reconciliation? I'd like to think its the later.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

For many people who are unsure of where they're going and just want to "be somewhere" in the meantime, yes, Anglicanism is a waiting room, unfortunately. I can't count the people with whom I've spoken who have said, "well, I'm probably going to go Catholic (or Orthodox) but I still am unsure of __________, so for now I'll just go to the Anglican Church I guess." Our parish here has been a revolving door of people. People get fed up with their Catholic or Evangelical or Presbyterian church and they go Anglican for a while till they find their bearings.

Our Anglican parish is a real oddball here, a real exception. People actually come to our Anglican parish because it's CONSERVATIVE! The liberals from other Protestant groups come to find refuge in our parish! Anglicanism and conservatism, go figure...

Is Anglicanism a waiting room or is it a faith of reconciliation? I'd like to think its the later.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I sure do remember that! Glen Larson....Mormons and science fiction, baby. Gotta love that!

Remember those alien angels who kidnap Starbuck and Apollo and Sheba and tell them "as you are, we once were. As we are, you shall become!" He should've just given them a Book of Mormon and a Mit Romney signed book!

He turned "Buck Rogers" into a Mormon show also looking for the "Lost Tribes" of earth LOL

aka Battlestar Galactica, which is basically Mormonism in space.